What is the pressure on the gauge while all this is happening? Sounds like you have good pressure before the pump shuts off at 60 PSI, but the pressure "goes away" or gets lower as the tank is emptying to 40 PSI. If this is the case turn the large adjustment screw in the pressure switch 3 full turns to the right. That will make it a 50/70 switch instead of a 40/60. Then you should have better pressure. But without a CSV the pressure will always "go away" or get lower as the tank drains. With a CSV the pressure will stay up and strong because the CSV holds a strong constant pressure and doesn't let the pump shut off while you are using water.Water inside the house is good and any single faucet works with good pressure, but it goes away fast. Recovers soon. Pump seldom runs.
Any advice is welcome. Thanks for all your help!
There is no check valves in the tank. The only check valve needed is the one down on the pump.Is there a check valve built into my pressure tank?
Alright, I just gave my wife an earful and she's gonna cough up the CSV125-3 60. Just saw you got free shipping in US. Done.What is the pressure on the gauge while all this is happening? Sounds like you have good pressure before the pump shuts off at 60 PSI, but the pressure "goes away" or gets lower as the tank is emptying to 40 PSI. If this is the case turn the large adjustment screw in the pressure switch 3 full turns to the right. That will make it a 50/70 switch instead of a 40/60. Then you should have better pressure. But without a CSV the pressure will always "go away" or get lower as the tank drains. With a CSV the pressure will stay up and strong because the CSV holds a strong constant pressure and doesn't let the pump shut off while you are using water.
Hey Cary,Sorry to cause problems with the wife! But she will be so happy with that constant 60 PSI from the CSV I will bet you get an apology. Lol!
Ok, I understand where it goes. I'll check dimensions on the one I'm buying and see if I can move the top pipe away from the wall or I may be better off adding it when I start the update down here. Either way, thanks tons for the help!Well it goes here, but I couldn't find my cut out picture of the CSV125 so I used the CSV1A.
View attachment 84014
A 30 gallon pressure tank only holds about 7-8 gallons of water. An 86 gallon tank only holds about 20-22 gallons of water. So, switching from a 30 gallon to a 86 gallon tank will make the pump run 3 times longer to fill the tank. But in most cases, like this one, even an 86 gallon size tank isn't large enough. The pump produces at least 25 GPM and the pump needs to run for a minimum of 1 minute, and 2 minutes is better to fill the tank. Two of those 86 gallon size tanks would be needed to have a decent life expectancy for the pump/motor.Many people think that their tank is huge and way more than they need. I think most people are wrong. So you have what's considered to be a 30 gallon pressure tank, but I think it really only holds 11 gallons. That's not much. I just replaced mine that was the same size with an 86 gallon tank with a 23 gal drawdown. It really made a difference in the cycling of the pump.
When I thought my pressure tank was ruptured, the research I came upon made me almost throw up. The stagnant water and the contact with the material of the bladder, is crazy. Really a CSV is the way to go if you want constant pressure. I wish they made a 70#.A 30 gallon pressure tank only holds about 7-8 gallons of water. An 86 gallon tank only holds about 20-22 gallons of water. So, switching from a 30 gallon to a 86 gallon tank will make the pump run 3 times longer to fill the tank. But in most cases, like this one, even an 86 gallon size tank isn't large enough. The pump produces at least 25 GPM and the pump needs to run for a minimum of 1 minute, and 2 minutes is better to fill the tank. Two of those 86 gallon size tanks would be needed to have a decent life expectancy for the pump/motor.
You cannot install enough tanks to stop the cycling. The larger the tank the slower the cycles, but it still cycles. Longer cycles are better for the pump, but leave the user at low pressure for long periods of time. No matter the size, a pressure tanks only job is to limit the on/off cycles of the pump. When you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, a small pressure tank is all that is needed.
The CSV will deliver strong constant pressure to the house, and the water goes right past the tank, not into it. Working with a smaller tank delivers this strong constant pressure much quicker than when using a large tank with a CSV, but either will work. However, as has been stated in many post here, since the CSV eliminates cycling, there are many advantages to a smaller pressure tank beside the obvious major difference in cost
. I wish they made a 70#.
You cannot install enough tanks to stop the cycling. The larger the tank the slower the cycles, but it still cycles. Longer cycles are better for the pump, but leave the user at low pressure for long periods of time. No matter the size, a pressure tanks only job is to limit the on/off cycles of the pump. When you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, a small pressure tank is all that is needed.
I know right? But running continuously is still the very best thing you can do for that pump. It says so right on the side of the motor. "Duty_____Continuous". It is the cycling on and off that kills pump/motors. I have a 10 GPM pump that has been restricted to 3 GPM, (3 GPM well) and that pump has not shut off since I put it in in 1999. That would be 23 years of continuous duty so far, and I expect at least double that and just hope I am still alive to see it.Well of course you can't install enough tanks to stop the cycling. The pump has to cycle at some point. Unfortunately, you can't convince me that it's better for a 25gpm pump to run constantly such as when there's only a 5gpm draw. That extra 20gpm has to go somewhere and the idea of restricting the flow of a 25gpm pump down to 5gpm or less, just doesn't make much sense to me.
I know right? But running continuously is still the very best thing you can do for that pump. It says so right on the side of the motor. "Duty_____Continuous". It is the cycling on and off that kills pump/motors. I have a 10 GPM pump that has been restricted to 3 GPM, (3 GPM well) and that pump has not shut off since I put it in in 1999. That would be 23 years of continuous duty so far, and I expect at least double that and just hope I am still alive to see it.
But no, the pump doesn't have to cycle at some point. Now it is not as efficient to run a 25 GPM pump at 5 GPM, but it is not as bad as you think either. Here is a curve on a 1HP, 25 GPM pump. As you can see at 25 GPM it is actually working in the service factor at 1.4HP. But at 5 GPM is is using less than half that much energy at .65HP.
So your basing everything on information you received from someone, 30 years ago, instead of the current data that is posted directly from the manufacturer? Sounds like your picking and choosing your sources to fit your narrative.Yep! That is exactly what I am saying. Actually, it was a Franklin Engineer by the name of Joel Roach who explained it to me in 1991. The pump curve makes little difference, as it is actually the motor that is in need of a certain flow rate to stay cool. The pump doesn't make much heat. It is like trying to boil water with a blender, it would take a long time. The motor makes amps, which translate directly to heat. The minimum recommended flow rate to keep a motor cool is expressed in feet per second flow past the motor. The tighter fit the motor is in the casing or flow sleeve, the more the fps and the less flow rate needed to cool the motor. With a minimum of .25 fps needed, that would be a flow rate of 1.2 GPM when using a 3.5" diameter motor in 4" casing. However, the motor can still stay cool at a much lower flow rate.
As Joel explained to me all those years ago, when restricting the pump with a valve, the amps of the motor are also reduced. For instance, when you have a 9 amp, 1HP motor that is only drawing 6 amps because the flow is restricted, the motor is not making as much heat. This is called de-rating the motor load. A fully loaded motor needs 1.2 GPM to remain cool. But a de-rated motor can safely pump hot water without any damage, so it takes very little cool water to keep the motor happy.
After Joel explained this to me I conducted many test to determine than 0.2 GPM is a safe flow rate for pumps up to 2HP. That is why the minimum flow built into a CSV is 1.0 GPM, making sure there is 5 times the flow rate needed to properly cool a motor and pump. A continuous flow of 0.2 GPM will never damage a pump/motor. A continuous flow of 0.2 GPM is also by far better for the pump than any amount of cycling on and off.
What is needed in those Franklin curves is the efficiency or the HP at various flow rates so you can figure the amps and how much the pump is de-rating the motor. Some pumps will only reduce in amperage by 10% or so, while the same size pump in a different brand will drop motor amps by 50%-60%. It is all in how the impellers stack is designed. Look at Grundfos pumps as they are the only pump company proud enough of their 50-60% drop in amps to publish the Horsepower on the pump curve.
There is no flow rate that the owner can use that will hurt the pump when using a CSV. The CSV always allows ample flow to keep the pump/motor cool, no matter what you do with the faucets. But it was a hard concept for me to understand 30 years ago. I hope I have explained it as well as Joel explained it to me.
Lol! I am basing everything on more than 50 years experience. The data from the manufacturers has not changed in all that time, as the laws of physics have not changed either. I have 30 years and millions of test cases proving what I learned all those years ago is still accurate. There is nothing better for your pump than a Cycle Stop Valve. You really don't want to take the "manufacturers" word for it, as they blacklisted the CSV in 1994 as a disruptive product. The quote was, "CSV's make pumps last longer and use smaller tanks, this company makes pumps and tanks, anyone who mentions a CSV will be fired immediately". So, listening to the manufacturers you will be stuck in a rut of regular pump and tank replacements over the years, which is what they like. The CSV will save you lots of money and from being out of water many times over the years, but your not obligated to do the smart thing. If you can't see all the benefits of a CSV, you will never know what you are missing anyway.So your basing everything on information you received from someone, 30 years ago, instead of the current data that is posted directly from the manufacturer? Sounds like your picking and choosing your sources to fit your narrative.
I don't see a difference. You said the manufacturer doesn't want you to use a CSV, and it's because they are in the business of selling tanks and pumps. Then you said, don't listen to the manufacturer, buy my product instead because it's better. So who do we listen to? The company that manufactures and warranties the pumps? Or you, and install your product and invalidate the warranty? Yeah, you said you had millions of test cases, but I'm sure the manufacturer has many, many more than that. It's hard to take one person's word for it, when he's trying to sell a product, compared to the manufacturer's recommendations.Lol! I am basing everything on more than 50 years experience. The data from the manufacturers has not changed in all that time, as the laws of physics have not changed either. I have 30 years and millions of test cases proving what I learned all those years ago is still accurate. There is nothing better for your pump than a Cycle Stop Valve. You really don't want to take the "manufacturers" word for it, as they blacklisted the CSV in 1994 as a disruptive product. The quote was, "CSV's make pumps last longer and use smaller tanks, this company makes pumps and tanks, anyone who mentions a CSV will be fired immediately". So, listening to the manufacturers you will be stuck in a rut of regular pump and tank replacements over the years, which is what they like. The CSV will save you lots of money and from being out of water many times over the years, but your not obligated to do the smart thing. If you can't see all the benefits of a CSV, you will never know what you are missing anyway.
This is awkward, but...
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