Looking to Buy Dual Fuel Heat Pump Online.

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Joel Schoenborn

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I am looking to buy a dual fuel heat pump and propane system online. I need 40000 BTU'S heating and 24,000 Cooling. It also has to be a 2 stage compressor and at least 16 SEER efficiency for a local energy coop rebate. It also needs to be at least 95 percent efficiency furnace. The problem I am running into is the highest efficiency I can find is 15.5 SEER. If I couple a 2 or 3 ton heat pump with a 80000 BTU furnace I can find some with 16 SEER ratings. However, I do not want to oversize my furnace in order to get to a 16 SEER rating. Any help or input would be greatly appreciated.
 

Dana

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How were the 40K heating/24K cooling load numbers determined? Those would be typical load numbers for a ~2500' house in your area, but "typical" has many variables.

Is this replacing an existing system, using the same ducts?

Dual-fuel rarely saves money over a right sized heat pump + heat strips to cover the shortfall when the heat pump is running out of capacity. That's particularly true when the electricity rates are modest and the second fuel is propane rather than natural gas.

There are also some pretty good ducted mini-split heat pumps that might work (without heat strip). If the heating load is truly 40K it might take a pair of them, but something like a fully modulating 1.5 ton Fujitsu AOU/ARU18RLFCD will still deliver more than 100% of it's AHRI "rated" capacity of 21,600 BTU/hr even when it's -5F outside, but can pull back to 3100 BTU/hr @ +47F. From a raw comfort point of view it's better than a right-sized 2-stager, and the SEER 19.7/HSPF 11.3 efficiency beats most 2 stage split systems by quite a bit too.
 

Joel Schoenborn

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How were the 40K heating/24K cooling load numbers determined? Those would be typical load numbers for a ~2500' house in your area, but "typical" has many variables.

Is this replacing an existing system, using the same ducts?

Dual-fuel rarely saves money over a right sized heat pump + heat strips to cover the shortfall when the heat pump is running out of capacity. That's particularly true when the electricity rates are modest and the second fuel is propane rather than natural gas.

There are also some pretty good ducted mini-split heat pumps that might work (without heat strip). If the heating load is truly 40K it might take a pair of them, but something like a fully modulating 1.5 ton Fujitsu AOU/ARU18RLFCD will still deliver more than 100% of it's AHRI "rated" capacity of 21,600 BTU/hr even when it's -5F outside, but can pull back to 3100 BTU/hr @ +47F. From a raw comfort point of view it's better than a right-sized 2-stager, and the SEER 19.7/HSPF 11.3 efficiency beats most 2 stage split systems by quite a bit too.

I can get an extra 1000 rebate for using dual fuel. And I am already going to have propane service at my house. Most summers I can buy propane for under $1 a gallon and have enough to last through the winter. But I have considery ducted mini split option as well.
 

Jorgebaloy

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But I have considery ducted mini split option as well.

Ducted Mini Split Systems : this means if you need a system that can hide in your attic, closet, or crawl space, this is the option for you. The majority of systems that you will find on this site need to be mounted to the wall within 6-12" of the ceiling. With these types you can complete a more versatile installation without having anything hanging of the wall.

A low-profile ducted unit is installed above or below the room it is serving. These systems can keep you comfortable all year round, without compromising your home's aesthetics.
 

Dana

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I can get an extra 1000 rebate for using dual fuel. And I am already going to have propane service at my house. Most summers I can buy propane for under $1 a gallon and have enough to last through the winter. But I have considery ducted mini split option as well.

Chasing the highest rebate subsidy isn't always the right thing to do.

How did you come up with the 40K heating/24K cooling capacity requirement numbers?
 

Dana

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That tool oversizes things by quite a bit, often by 25-35%. A common source of error is the air leakage rate assumptions built into the tool. Set the ventilation rate to 0 cfm, and the construction tightness & duct tightness presumptions "very tight". Even if the ducts happen in the attic and uninsulated, select the duct location to "conditioned space" and insulated to R8. Even then it usually overestimates reality (but by a lesser amount), but it will be a bit closer.

The shade factors on that tool aren't very nuanced either, which can up-size the cooling load numbers considerably.

But it's still better than a WAG or a dumb rule of thumb.

It's better to have a qualified third party (not an HVAC contractor) such as a certified professional engineer (PE) or RESNET rater, some who makes their living on the accuracy of their numbers do the calculations, using the most aggressive assumptions on R-values, U-factors, and air tightness that can be deemed "reasonable" or "possible".

About how big is the house?

Full basement, crawlspace, or slab on grade?

Is the foundation insulated?
 

Joel Schoenborn

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That tool oversizes things by quite a bit, often by 25-35%. A common source of error is the air leakage rate assumptions built into the tool. Set the ventilation rate to 0 cfm, and the construction tightness & duct tightness presumptions "very tight". Even if the ducts happen in the attic and uninsulated, select the duct location to "conditioned space" and insulated to R8. Even then it usually overestimates reality (but by a lesser amount), but it will be a bit closer.

The shade factors on that tool aren't very nuanced either, which can up-size the cooling load numbers considerably.

But it's still better than a WAG or a dumb rule of thumb.

It's better to have a qualified third party (not an HVAC contractor) such as a certified professional engineer (PE) or RESNET rater, some who makes their living on the accuracy of their numbers do the calculations, using the most aggressive assumptions on R-values, U-factors, and air tightness that can be deemed "reasonable" or "possible".

About how big is the house?

Full basement, crawlspace, or slab on grade?

Is the foundation insulated?

House is 1400 SQ FT with Full Finished Basement. Basement walls are insulated floor is not.
If I were to go with a mini split, would it really matter if it were over-sized a bit, considering they are variable capacity.
 

Dana

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A 1400' house that's reasonably tight, with double pane windows (or single panes + storms) and an insulated full basement that's mostly below-grade (not a walk-out basement on a slope) will usually have a heat load between 22,000-28,000 BTU/hr @ 0F, and a cooling load between 1-1.5 tons. There are exceptions, of course.

If you have a full winter's worth of heating history on this place, run a careful fuel use heat load calculation as a sanity check (winter months fuel use only- the shoulder seasons have lots of error potential.)

The modulation range of mini-splits are not infinite, and it's oversized to the point that it spends more time cycling on/off at low speed than modulating with load it won't hit it's efficiency numbers. They have phenomenally good efficiency at part-load when modulating, but excessive cycling wastes it. For instance, the 1.5 ton Fujitsu -18RLFCD has one of the wider turn down ratios in it's class, but can only modulate down to 3100 BTU/hr @ +47F. If it's running a zone that has a load of 10,000 BTU/hr @ 0F the load at +47F will be about 3200 BTU/hr, so it won't really start cycling much until it's in the 50s outside, which would be fine.

But if it's on a zone that has a design load of 7000 BTU/hr it will start cycling on/off when it's in the low 40s outside. In your area the mean temp in November and March is in the 40s, and even hits the 40s often in December-February so during most of the shoulder seasons it would cycle a lot, and even be cycling sometimes in the dead of winter.

So when looking a mini-splits look at both the minimum modulation at 47F (usually specified in the efficiency test submittal sheets), and the extended temperature capacity charts for it's output at your local 99% outside design temp (which is about +5F.)
 

Joel Schoenborn

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A 1400' house that's reasonably tight, with double pane windows (or single panes + storms) and an insulated full basement that's mostly below-grade (not a walk-out basement on a slope) will usually have a heat load between 22,000-28,000 BTU/hr @ 0F, and a cooling load between 1-1.5 tons. There are exceptions, of course.

If you have a full winter's worth of heating history on this place, run a careful fuel use heat load calculation as a sanity check (winter months fuel use only- the shoulder seasons have lots of error potential.)

The modulation range of mini-splits are not infinite, and it's oversized to the point that it spends more time cycling on/off at low speed than modulating with load it won't hit it's efficiency numbers. They have phenomenally good efficiency at part-load when modulating, but excessive cycling wastes it. For instance, the 1.5 ton Fujitsu -18RLFCD has one of the wider turn down ratios in it's class, but can only modulate down to 3100 BTU/hr @ +47F. If it's running a zone that has a load of 10,000 BTU/hr @ 0F the load at +47F will be about 3200 BTU/hr, so it won't really start cycling much until it's in the 50s outside, which would be fine.

But if it's on a zone that has a design load of 7000 BTU/hr it will start cycling on/off when it's in the low 40s outside. In your area the mean temp in November and March is in the 40s, and even hits the 40s often in December-February so during most of the shoulder seasons it would cycle a lot, and even be cycling sometimes in the dead of winter.

So when looking a mini-splits look at both the minimum modulation at 47F (usually specified in the efficiency test submittal sheets), and the extended temperature capacity charts for it's output at your local 99% outside design temp (which is about +5F.)

IF I were to use a mini split will they continue to heat in extreme conditions, lets say -10 or below? I realize this does not happen very often in my area, however when it does I really need my heat to work. What brands are the best when it comes to ducted mini splits?
 

Dana

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Of the mini-duct cassette types, Fujitsu -xxRLFCDs are hands-down the easiest to work with, due to the better blower motor and big turn down ratio, and the fact that they can be mounted vertically (in a 5-7 square foot "utility closet", if you like). They only have specified capacity ratings down to -5F, but they still keep cranking even at -25F (they just don't specify the output at any temperature below -5F.)

Since there are no resistance heating backup element options for mini-duct minisplits it's important that they are sized to be able handle the load of the zone at +5F, which could be cutting it close. Some 2x4 framed 1400' houses will have heat loads less than 21,600 BTU/hr @ +5F, but many will be higher than that. Run some careful (but aggressive) load numbers on the first floor only (do the basement separately)to see if there is any way it would work for the whole first floor. Since code requirements for heating to 68F at the 99% outside design temperatures apply only to "habitable" spaces, you can get some benefit from not directly heating say, the laundry room or pantry, but would be required to directly heat the bedrooms, living room, kitchen, etc. . Online calculators such as loadcalc aren't going to be accurate enough to fine-tune it that closely, but pro-tools will. It's sometimes cheaper to do some amount of insulation/window/air sealing upgrade to get it to duck in under the wire than to go with a bigger, usually much more expensive model (or breaking it into two zones and going with two mini-splits for the first floor only.)

This is a 1.5 ton Fujitsu mounted vertically in a house in CA:

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7843213f27734395e6ede8ea696552a8eafd3a2dd7f62c2b61241bb23189a293.jpg


The big grille is the return (no ducts). The cassette itself is a couple feet long, mounted between the return plenum and a very short 12-15" tall supply plenum where all the flex is hooked up. (If doing it that way install a narrow access cupboard-door or removable panel for servicing the condensate drain and refrigerant line hookups.)

The AHRI "rated" output at which it's efficiency is tested at +17F was 21,600 BTU/hr. It still has that much capacity at max speed at +5F , and still more than 19,000 BTU/hr @ -5F (more than than 100% of it's nominal 18,000 BTU/hr cooling rating), which is the lowest temperature at which the specify the capacity.

Of the full air handler types the Mitsubishi PVA air handlers with PUZ HAxx series compressors rule, but they're expensive as hell, and only have about a 2.5:1 turn down ratio. It's target market is small commercial buildings, and comes in only three models with ratings down at -25C/ -13F. The smallest is is a 3-tonner, capable of 38K @ +5F, and almost surely enough (but probably too much) for your actual loads.

The other Mitsubishi full-size air handler units with a specified capacity that low are the non-modulating MVZ air handlers that are compatible with their MXZ series "Hyper Heating" multi-zone compressors. You're probably looking at a MVZ-A24 or MVA-A30 for the upstairs zone (they make a 3 tonner too, if need be), and an FH06 wall-coil for heating the basement. (MXZ compressors need to have at least two zones hooked up to operate correctly.) The FH06 is good for 8700 BTU/hr @ +5F (probably well over the design heat load of the basement) when hooked up to sufficient compressor. You'd be looking at either the MXZ-3C30NAHZ (good for 28,600BTU/hr @ +5F) or the MXZ-4C36NAHZ (good for 45,000 BTU/hr @ +5F, a pretty big jump.) They're not cheap either, but they're cheaper than the PVA/PUZ.

The full size air handler units all have electric heat strip options for covering the short fall for excess load on the rare -10F days. It's not insane to even slightly undersize them for the 99% load and burn some heat strip, as long as it can be heat pump only at the 95th percentile temperature bin. That way the duty cycle stays higher (= higher heat pump efficiency), at the expense of burning a bit extra power (or letting the temperature in the house slip a few degrees) 1-4% of the time.

Mitsubishi has mini-duct units too, but they only have capacity ratings at -13F when married to an MXZ compressor, not a standalone where they would modulate rather than cycle. The blowers are pretty wimpy compared to Fujitsu's and they can only be mounted horizontally. Married to a dedicated compressor they don't have the "Hyper Heating" capacity, and even at +17F the KA18's capacity is well below that of Fujtisu's -18RLFCD.

There are other options. The NEEP organization maintains a fairly complete spreadsheet of cold-climate heat pumps, which way over in column "AM" lists the max capacity at +5F, and in column "BE" the max capacity at -5F.
 

Dana

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Like all multi-splits, the LG cassettes and heads do not modulate with load when on a multi-zone compressor. The compressor steps up/down relative to the size and number of zones calling for heat/coolth. Most multi-splits also direct refrigerant to zones that are not currently active as a refrigerant-dump to deal with any excess compressor output. Even though the blowers in the "off" zones aren't running, there is some heating or cooling going on when that happens. If a head is oversized for the zone the unintended heating/cooling can overheat or overcool the zone when other zones that are active are calling for refrigerant.

Bottom line, more so than with fully modulating individual mini-split it's important to size the head/cassette for the zone it is heating & cooling. The "ductless head per room" is almost always NOT the right solution, since room the size of bedrooms have loads are typically considerably smaller than the max output of even a half-ton ductless head. But if the cassettes/heads are reasonbly sized and with max or rated output relative to the zone loads have the same rough proportions per zone they can still be pretty good.

LG has some good stuff (particularly their "Art Cool Premier" single minisplits, which have an excellent modulation range, capable of throttling back to ~1000 BTU/hr), but with any equipment it all comes down to the level of local & regional support. In my area Fujitsu and Mitsubishi have FAR more distributor and technical support than LG, whereas most LG installers in my are are doing ductless heat pumps only as a side-business. YMMV.
 
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