Help with yard hydrant

[Blake Faulkner]

I apologize if this question has been previously answered, I did a simple search and it kept coming up with unrelated topics.

So before I get to my question let me give a quick rundown of what I have now and what I will end up with in the end. Right now all I have is a drilled well, no pump or anything else for the time being. What I will end up with is a submersible pump placed into well that will attach to a submersible 2500 gal cistern which will also have a submersible grundfos constant pressure pump that will then feed a small 5 gal pressure tank in the house.

Ok, now for my question (which is probably a silly one). I would like to do all of this in stages but would like to have a yard hydrant next to the well head (which is also next to detached garage) for misc use before completing the entire thing. Is it possible to install the hydrant just passed the well pump with a check valve in between them and that be all? Does the well pump supply all the pressure to the hydrant by itself without any pressure tank or switch?

 

[Reach4]

Are you asking if you can put the well pump down now, and just turn it on and off, and add the control stuff and the cistern later?

Probably. When you feed a cistern, a float switch will control the pump on and off. The ideally sized pump to fill a cistern will not develop a lot of pressure at the surface. There are other considerations. The pump may be sized for worst case, and may have more than enough pressure to use for a yard hydrant temporarily.

Regarding the SQE pump in the cistern and the control stuff, that may be complex without adding much function. Lots of points of failure. You aren't talking solar power, are you? A 1/2 HP 10 gpm submersible pump in a cistern is cheap and usually provides more than enough water and pressure for a nearby house.

Are you confident you will need a cistern? Would that be due to fire protection rules, or you need it to support a house?

How big is the well (depth and diameter), and how far down is the static water level?

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/pump_in_tank-png.55410/

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WorthFlorida]

If you were using an irrigation pump, it would be no problem, but a submersible, though submersed in water can overheat with too little water flow and it needs water flow for lubrication. Without controls the pump would be running all the time and if you use a nozzle on the hose that might be connected to the spigot, you can damage the pump if the nozzle is closed. Worst yet someone else turns off the spigot and not power off the pump.

See page 4 of this manual.
https://www.pumpproducts.com/media/amasty/amfile/attach/Motor Application and Installation Data Manual Installation-Operation Manual.pdf

 

[Blake Faulkner]

Are you asking if you can put the well pump down now, and just turn it on and off, and add the control stuff and the cistern later?

Yes, pretty much. I just am not sure if the pump will make enough pressure at grade level to supple a hydrant with decent flow. Also, would I have to manually turn on the pump every time before using the hydrant? Ideally the hydrant would be located in between the cistern and the pressure tank inside but I am just wanting water to the lot for a build before I am at that stage.

Regarding the SQE pump in the cistern and the control stuff, that may be complex without adding much function. Lots of points of failure. You aren't talking solar power, are you? A 1/2 HP 10 gpm submersible pump in a cistern is cheap and usually provides more than enough water and pressure for a nearby house.

Nope, no solar, I will have power to the property for the well. I believe the cistern pump will be a .5 HP 10 GPM pump going to the house so if you think that is ok then I should be good there.

Are you confident you will need a cistern? Would that be due to fire protection rules, or you need it to support a house?

Cistern is to help support the house. We get a lot of snow and rain run off but there are also times when it is quite dry and just want to be safe.

How big is the well (depth and diameter), and how far down is the static water level?

The well is set at 165' with 6 inch steel casing with 100' of it being perfed. Static water level was at about 120'.

 

[Blake Faulkner]

If you were using an irrigation pump, it would be no problem, but a submersible, though submersed in water can overheat with too little water flow and it needs water flow for lubrication. Without controls the pump would be running all the time and if you use a nozzle on the hose that might be connected to the spigot, you can damage the pump if the nozzle is closed. Worst yet someone else turns off the spigot and not power off the pump.

See page 4 of this manual.
https://www.pumpproducts.com/media/amasty/amfile/attach/Motor Application and Installation Data Manual Installation-Operation Manual.pdf

Some very good points here and is sort of what i've been afraid of. I may just have to wait for water until I am ready to install the cistern and all the controls and then just hook the hydrant up to the cistern.

 

[Reach4]

The well is set at 165' with 6 inch steel casing with 100' of it being perfed. Static water level was at about 120'.

Pump will be set at around 145 ft, and should have a flow inducer sleeve.

Submersible may be a 10gpm 1/2 hp pump. That would give enough pressure for most uses on the construction site. You don't need 10 gpm, but a 10 gpm 1/2 hp pump is cheaper than a 7 gpm 1/2 hp pump.

Powering the pump with a small generator? That can affect your choice of pump.

If you want the yard hydrant to be able to have pressure all of the time, you can put a pressure switch and pressure tank. If you are careful, you could make sure the water path is open, and turn on the pump with a switch. Then switch the pump off. No pressure tank or pressure switch. The pressure tank or pressure switch would not require the carefulness. Maybe you could move those to the output of the cistern when you introduce the cistern.

 

[Blake Faulkner]

Powering the pump with a small generator? That can affect your choice of pump.

No, it will be connected to constant grid power.

If you want the yard hydrant to be able to have pressure all of the time, you can put a pressure switch and pressure tank. If you are careful, you could make sure the water path is open, and turn on the pump with a switch. Then switch the pump off. No pressure tank or pressure switch. The pressure tank or pressure switch would not require the carefulness. Maybe you could move those to the output of the cistern when you introduce the cistern.

I'm not sure it's worth the chance for me as there will be a handful of people on site at most times which would increase the chances of the pump burning up. I will look into the temp option of putting tank and switch above ground for now.

Thanks for all the help and advice!

 

[Valveman]

I wouldn't use a cistern if the well is capable of producing enough water. The cistern just adds complications, as with an additional pump system, and offers the possibility to contaminate the water. Water coming straight from the well will be fresh and clean. Water sitting in a cistern can get stale and grow green stuff in the water, so occasional chlorine is needed. But if the well produces less than 5 GPM a cistern is a must.

Constant pressure to the house is a wonderful thing. However, using a variable speed pump like the SQE to make constant pressure is the least reliable and most expensive way to do it. A simple Cycle Stop Valve with a normal full speed pump will do a better job at a fraction of the price and make the pump system last several times longer than normal.

There are a couple ways you can do this if you still want a cistern. You can install a PK1A on the well pump and another on the booster pump as in the first drawing. This will allow you to use water directly from the well or from the cistern. But normally a cistern is used because the well is a low producer, and is installed pumping directly to the cistern as in the second drawing.

 

[Blake Faulkner]

Yea, I'm not going to lie, most of this went right over my head. My future installs were just what the well company here is wanting to install / do on my system. I believe the well is at about 8-9 GPM from what they told me but I don't think it has officially been measured. According to your drawings it looks like the well company is planning on going with the second option as far as layout. Please offer your opinion and let me know what you think. I am very capable of doing the physical work, I have just never messed with a well before so I am unfamiliar. My hopes are that I can do a lot of the work myself (now that the well is drilled) so I can cut back on expenses as they are charging quite a bit for all of this. My fear not using the cistern is that the well will get too low during Arizona droughts. We do get a pretty good amount of snow runoff though so maybe it would be fine, not sure. If I do go the cistern route then I sort of like the first option. Are the PK1A tanks able to be burried below the frost line some how? The reason I ask is because the cistern would be installed a decent distance away from my house so I wouldn't have any insulated area to put the tank. I've attached a snip of my plot plan so you can see what I mean. FYI the detached garage will not be insulated.

 

[Valveman]

The PK1A kit can be put in a valve box, but not buried. Using a submersible in an underground cistern you could put the PK1A at the house, and not have anything buried except the cistern and water line to the house.

 

[Blake Faulkner]

So doing it this way would just be a better alternative to using an SQE? I'm guessing the submersible in the cistern would just be a normal pump? I don't feel comfortable dropping the pump down the well but I don't mind doing the one in the cistern myself. Any recommendations on which pump to use for the cistern and which PK1A to buy?

 

[Valveman]

Yes the CSV type system is a better alternative to variable speed type pumps like the SQE. However, you can use the CSV to control that same pump. Just don' t use the CU301 variable speed control box and the SQE pump becomes a standard pump and is then called just an SQ, not an SQE. But for a submersible to work in a cistern and with a PK1A Cycle Stop Valve control kit you can't beat the price of 150 bucks for one of those 1HP, 33 GPM, Hallmark pumps. All you need is one of those pumps and the standard PK1A kit with a 4.5 gallon size tank.

 

[Blake Faulkner]

Sounds like I need to start shopping around. I'm glad you recommended that cheaper pump because I honestly would have thought the pump was not good if it was only $150. We are prepared to spend what we have to to make sure we have a decent system that will last for many years. Do you still recommend that pump over others or are there any other more expensive ones that you like? Thanks again for all the help, I really appreciate your time.

 

[Valveman]

So far everyone seems to be having good luck with those pumps. The internal check valve is not that good, and it is recommended to add an additional brass or Stainless spring loaded check valve to the pump. But for that price it could be replaced 3-4 times for what the next option would be. Kind of hard not to try it and see how long it will last. You can always replace it with a more expensive alternative if it doesn't last long enough to suit you. They should pay me a commission. But even that wouldn't be much on a $150 pump.

Oh and use the 230 volt version. 1HP is too much on 115 volt.