Gonna be a fun day of fishing

[Hatsuwr]

Going to try and make a hook like the picture below. Sharp inside edges of the hook that narrow to a point should hopefully wedge the wire in there, and maybe a few barbs toward the bottom. No pointed tip though, and I'll file down the corners and edged to hopefully minimize the chances of it getting caught on something I don't want, or of it wedging between the pump and casing if I lose it somehow.

Just need to find a repeatable way to get my camera down there to guide it without twisting around the pump power wires at all.

 

[Hatsuwr]

Alright, pump is free! But, it gets stuck again as soon as I try to pull it up...

So, going to try and grab that ground wire. Really hoping that's the problem, since I don't think I have any chance of grabbing anything else down there. I'd try a magnet just to check for other stuff, but the last receipt for this well mentions a galvanized barb fitting, so that probably won't work.

Made this to attach to my camera. Will secure it with some weak tape so I can pull the camera free once it's on the wire. Those hooks are bent inward to avoid catching other things, and the inside corners are sharpened to cut into insulation. Just need to file down some of the sharp corners and I'll give it a try.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

That is moved down is a good thing. But even that ground wire hanging down will be too much for the room you have. Be good if you could break off the wires.

 

[Hatsuwr]

No luck so far. I was able to grab the ground wire, but that hasn't helped at all. It's possible I grabbed it too close to where it comes out of the pump, and might not be pulling it out from between the casing and pump.

Going to keep trying with the ground wire, but I'm starting to wonder if the casing could be partially deformed. It took lot of effort to get the pump unstuck in the first place - more that I would have expected from being wedged while I was pulling.

The pump is currently hanging freely on the drop pipe, and moves down freely. When trying to pull it up - fast or slow - it seems to get stuck at pretty much the same height each time.

It's weird though - it's almost a tactile sensation when it starts to get stuck, and a it only takes maybe 20 lbs beyond the weight of just lifting the pump to get it stuck to the point where it will support its weight in the stuck position.

 

[Hatsuwr]

I figure there are 4 possibilities:

1. Casing deformation. Kinda screwed if this is the case. I can check for it by putting something close to 4" diameter down the well. Maybe a 3" coupling would have the right OD - if not, I could throw it on the lathe and take a bit off. If it gets stuck though, it could also be because of possibility #2, so the test could only rule this out, not confirm it.

2. Buildup on the casing. I just put some vinegar down the well to work on this in case it's the issue. Will try a stronger acid if I find it likely to be this issue. Repeatedly pulling up on the pump to hit against buildup might free it. If not, I could modify the test tool in possibility #1 to have teeth at the bottom to grind it away.

3. Ground wire getting stuck. Still working on trying to hook this at a secondary location.

4. Some other debris getting stuck. This would be pretty problematic, especially if it's non-magnetic. I could try fishing around with a magnet, but the barb fitting on the pump is magnetic, and I don't see what would have fallen down there that would be magnetic anyway. The pump's check valve doesn't hold... If it is leaky enough, maybe I could inject air through the drop pipe, and maybe have the bubbles lift the obstruction as I pull

I could maybe eliminate #1/#2 by dropping the pump a bit further and seeing if it gets stuck lower down, but I'm running out of slack on the power lines. I think I'll work on the ground wire a bit more, then try this if that fails..

 

[Valveman]

A small line down to the pump connected to a large air compressor might stir thing up enough to let you pull it through any debris. But if the casing is deformed or a wire is wedged beside the pump it may never come out. Worst case scenario would be to cut or break the pipe off at the pump and just drive the pump down as far as possible. You have 20' of water above the pump to set another pump in even if you can't get the old pump to drop any deeper.

 

[Hatsuwr]

A small line down to the pump connected to a large air compressor might stir thing up enough to let you pull it through any debris. But if the casing is deformed or a wire is wedged beside the pump it may never come out. Worst case scenario would be to cut or break the pipe off at the pump and just drive the pump down as far as possible. You have 20' of water above the pump to set another pump in even if you can't get the old pump to drop any deeper.

Yea if this goes on much longer I might have to do that. I figure best way would be to tie a loose icicle hitch with a strong rope, then push the knot down to the pump. Either it's going to pull the pump out, or it'll break the pipe at the bottom. If the latter, then I can do the same with the wires

I think the worst part of all of this is that there's a *chance* I could pull just a bit harder on the drop pipe and everything would come free, with some difficulty. Just not willing to risk that yet though.

 

[Hatsuwr]

Made a bigger hook out of some rebar, but it's trying to get stuck on the wires, so I'm slipping some 1" PVC over them to keep that from happening. Might go ahead and make a more aggressive hook since that should eliminate any tangling issues.

 

[Hatsuwr]

Got the ground wire hooked, but it somehow managed to make a loop around my hook, and most of my pulling force seems to be pulling the side connecting to the pump... Gotta get the hook unstuck, or just throw a second one down there.

I did drop the pump slightly further down (can't go too far while keeping it usable in the meantime), and it seems to be getting stuck further down. Good news, because that seems to indicate that it isn't casing deformation or buildup on the casing.

Very very slow, but progress at least

 

[Hatsuwr]

Well, ground wire is out of the way and it's still stuck. Looks like it's time to just pull really hard and hope for the best. I'm out of ideas otherwise.

I have a 4400 lb breaking strength rope. Plan is to get it tied with an icicle hitch at the bottom of the drop pipe, right around where it meets the pump.

Anything I should be concerned about here? I figure either the pump comes out, or the drop pipe breaks. If the latter, I'll try to push the pump down to the bottom of the well, but even if it stays stuck in its current position, the water level is high enough for a new pump on top.

Only worry I have is the pump getting even more stuck partway up. I don't think that's very likely though. Is casing damage a concern?

One last thought is to first lower the pump as far as it will go, with the hope that the casing would be open at the bottom and the borehole would continue, with a larger diameter that would allow whatever is causing the jam to fall down. I think this is unlikely based on my location (Maryland). The county well records from when this well was drilled were lost unfortunately, so I can't say for sure. The only thing I can say with some confidence is that the water comes into the casing from below the pump.

It might be worth dropping the pump down first regardless of the well construction though, since if it is going to get stuck and the drop pipe break, it would be nice if it were further down. Although, if casing damage is a concern, I imagine the screen would be more fragile.

 

[Valveman]

The only concern I would have is breaking the pull rope instead of the pipe. That could make a bigger mess. Don't think you will hurt anything to try and pound it down. Probably not going to budge. Pull until something breaks. Get everything out of the well that you can. Pound down on the pump as much as possible. Deal with what you have left by setting a new pump above the old one and see what happens. Crossing my fingers.

 

[Reach4]

If taking bets, I would bet the pump pulls out. But that is not based on experimentation or calculation.

 

[Hatsuwr]

Decided to take one more look around before committing, and I think I may have found a crack in the casing. I put a picture below, with the suspected crack being on the bottom left. Here are two videos as well. The first starts with what I believe is a joint in the casing, then pulls up around the 30 second mark to briefly see the crack, and the second video focuses on that area. I think there are some black vertical marks in the area where the pump was sliding as I tried pulling it out.

Doesn't really change my next steps I think. Wonder how that might have happened, or if it's even a recent development. Seems to roughly correspond to the top of the female connection of the casing section below.

20230407_184245_00000018_00N

Watch "20230407_184245_00000018_00N" on Streamable.

streamable.com

20230407_185919_00000020_00N

Watch "20230407_185919_00000020_00N" on Streamable.

streamable.com

 

[Reach4]

Both videos looked the same. At times I saw what looked like a little monster with two eyes and a gaping mouth.

At times I thought that it looked like a piece of debris with a top view similar to a utility knife refill, but looking like a shard of maybe PVC as the view got lower.

Both videos resulted in the same URL in the browser address box.

 

[Hatsuwr]

lol, now I can't not see that face. I believe the debris is all just tape from freeing the wires from the drop pipe. I could definitely have missed something, but I inspected the top of the pump pretty thoroughly before and after cutting the wires free and didn't see anything solid.

Strange, the two links are distinct when I try them. Here is the second video that shows the cracks better by itself:

20230407_185919_00000020_00N

Watch "20230407_185919_00000020_00N" on Streamable.

streamable.com

 

[Reach4]

lol, now I can't not see that face. I

 

[Valveman]

You didn't have to draw it out. I couldn't NOT see that face after the first time you mentioned it. Was even hard to concentrate on what I needed to be watching. Lol! Needed that, thanks!

After getting past the face though it looks pretty wedged in there. Casing gets old and splits from the pressure of the earth. Not gonna happen with poly pipe but I have pulled up pumps like this and the casing came up with the pump. But even if it won't budge, there should be enough water come up through the old pump to supply a new pump set above it.

 

[Hatsuwr]

You didn't have to draw it out. I couldn't NOT see that face after the first time you mentioned it. Was even hard to concentrate on what I needed to be watching. Lol! Needed that, thanks!

After getting past the face though it looks pretty wedged in there. Casing gets old and splits from the pressure of the earth. Not gonna happen with poly pipe but I have pulled up pumps like this and the casing came up with the pump. But even if it won't budge, there should be enough water come up through the old pump to supply a new pump set above it.

The pump is actually free in its current position. It can rotate and move down no problem, but trying to pull it out results it in being stuck in about the area pictured. I noticed early on that when trying to pull it out, there was a sort of 'bumpy' feeling just before it got stuck. That would line up well with the damage I think I'm seeing now.

I'm hoping that if I can get my hitch onto the barb fitting then I will be able to pull the pump past this area. Got a new rope coming first though.

So this splitting is relatively normal? It happening so close to the pump made me wonder if it was potentially caused by the pump overheating. Should I expect it to get worse, to the point of the well failing? I'm obviously not going to put a pump below this area in the future, so maybe some sort of sleeve (like a 4" inside coupling with a vertical notch cut in it) could be applied to the area to reinforce it.

 

[Valveman]

PVC casing will get hot and melt into the pump. Steel casing is probably just corrosion. If it was larger casing you could sleeve it. Not much you can do inside 4" casing. Running a 3" liner MIGHT work, then you would need a 3" pump. Probably best just to set the new pump above the problem area.

If you can turn it, it might come out easier. With steel pipe we turn to the right while pulling.

 

[Hatsuwr]

Yea it doesn't look like melting at all, seems to pretty clearly be a crack. Was thinking maybe heat may have weakened already stressed casing, but at that temperature I would expect more deformation before full on cracking (although the PVC is at least 50 years old).

I'll be setting the new pump above the problem area for sure, I'm just thinking about that crack getting worse and compromising the well. Couldn't just a section of liner be pushed down into that area, while leaving the full 4" diameter above it?

PE drop pipe unfortunately, so trying to turn it after it begins to get stuck isn't possible.