Frequent Cycling, frequent reset switch tripping

[jmoser]

My well pump is frequently tripping. I hope I am using the right names of the parts as I try to describe this.
When it trips, I find the tank is totally empty, and there is no water running in the house. I can restart the pump by using the reset button on the bottom of the control box.
I noticed there was a humming sound coming from the control box when the pump was running. So I replaced one of the capacitors and the start relay switch. I also replaced the snifter and the pressure switch (where the contacts are). I realize now that I didn't replace the AVC which I removed but I thought it was ok because the float wasnt' broken. I will replace that, but could it be the cause of this problem?

When I press the overload reset button on the bottom of the control box, It resets. The well turns on when I hold the little metal lever on my pressure switch. Initially the tank pressure is zero, and it takes several minutes until the tank pressure reaches over 20# so that I can release the metal lever and the pump will keep filling the tank. after I release the lever the tank continues filling to 50# and stops. When it runs down to 30# the pump kicks on and refills the tank again. I think that is how it is supposed to work. But within days, it was tripping again. Now it is tripping even more frequently.
I emptied the tank when I checked the float on the AVC so it seems like it shouldn't be waterlogged already.(I don't have a bladder tank, its the old fashioned kind). My pump does cycle frequently, always has. We just don't run enough water at a time. We replaced the pump and the bleeder valve (the one about 20' down in the casing) just a few years ago.

So I'm thinking maybe my pump is going bad from so much cycling. Can you tell me how to test the pump? Obviously if its bad I will call the pump company but I'd like to see if I can trouble shoot it myself. I have a voltmeter that I used to test the components in the control box (except for the switch relay which I just replaced and discovered it was the source of the humming sound).

Also, is there anything I can do to keep our pump from cycling so frequently? It is very hard for us to run enough water at a time to run the pump continuously.

The pump is a 1.5HP pump running on 220v. The breaker is a 30amp double pole. The only thing running on the breaker is the well pump. The pump is down about 126' (well deptyh 140', water level 100', last measured in 2010).

 

[Reach4]

Initially the tank pressure is zero, and it takes several minutes until the tank pressure reaches over 20#

That seems incompatible with your large pump.
It also seems incompatible with not-enough air in your tank, that rapid cycling would suggest.

Is this pump used for irrigation, or just a house?

The pump is down about 126' (well deptyh 140', water level 100', last measured in 2010).

Dang, that is not a lot of water between the static water level and the pump depth. You might need something more sophisticated than a low-pressure-cutoff pressure switch to turn off the pump if you run out of water.

But for a house, I would think a 3/4 hp 10 gpm pump would be quite enough to draw water from 126 ft, and supply lots of water for a house. Maybe you have additional requirements for your fire sprinklers.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

The bleeder down the well won't work unless the above ground check valve is holding tight and the Schrader is opening easily (no cap). The AVC only lets out any excess air, and you would know as it would be blowing a glass out of your hand at the sink. You need a clip around amp meter to see if the pump is drawing too many amps or if the red button is just weak, like they get after resetting a few times. You can also ohm out the motor to see if there is any short, as there should not be. But if your pump has been cycling a lot, you probably need a new pump. There are ways to eliminate the cycling, even when only using small amounts of water. But it is best to use a Cycle Stop Valve with a diaphragm style tank, which would mean needing to plug the bleeder down hole.

 

[LLigetfa]

You need a clip around amp meter to see if the pump is drawing too many amps

I had a neighbor who was an electrician. His pump started tripping and when he checked the amps, he came to the conclusion the pump motor was bad. When he pulled the pump he found one of the wires was leaking current to ground, so the motor was misdiagnosed.

In addition to measuring amps, it may be prudent to measure ohms.

 

[jmoser]

error-

 

[jmoser]

That seems incompatible with your large pump.
It also seems incompatible with not-enough air in your tank, that rapid cycling would suggest.

Is this pump used for irrigation, or just a house?


Dang, that is not a lot of water between the static water level and the pump depth. You might need something more sophisticated than a low-pressure-cutoff pressure switch to turn off the pump if you run out of water.

But for a house, I would think a 3/4 hp 10 gpm pump would be quite enough to draw water from 126 ft, and supply lots of water for a house. Maybe you have additional requirements for your fire sprinklers.
QUOTE]


WE live on 5 acres. We irrigate about an acre for yard and gardens. We have several large horse troughs that are on automatic fill valves (probably each one fills only 10-25 gallons/day).

[/QUOTE]

 

[jmoser]

The bleeder down the well won't work unless the above ground check valve is holding tight and the Schrader is opening easily (no cap). The AVC only lets out any excess air, and you would know as it would be blowing a glass out of your hand at the sink. You need a clip around amp meter to see if the pump is drawing too many amps or if the red button is just weak, like they get after resetting a few times. You can also ohm out the motor to see if there is any short, as there should not be. But if your pump has been cycling a lot, you probably need a new pump. There are ways to eliminate the cycling, even when only using small amounts of water. But it is best to use a Cycle Stop Valve with a diaphragm style tank, which would mean needing to plug the bleeder down hole.

Valveman--I did not remove the cap from the schrader valve, just loosened it. So I hear air escaping and it always leaks a bit when the tank is filling. I will remove it.
Re: a CSV, can I use it with my old style pressure tank (no diaphgram)? I'd prefer not to change out my tank if possible since it is in good shape. A CSV makes alot of sense!

 

[jmoser]

or if the red button is just weak, like they get after resetting a few times.

My red button has been reset MANY times over the past month. And, on the advice of a serviceman over the phone, I initally had to use a slight tap of a hammer to get the button to work, I was unable to depress it. It would be nice if it was just that button that was the problem with the tripping. I will look up how to test the amps using the clamp around meter--I believe I have one that I inherited, but have never known how to use.

 

[jmoser]

In addition to measuring amps, it may be prudent to measure ohms.

I will look up how to measure the ohms, but how do I find out what readings would be normal for my pump? thanks

 

[jmoser]

Valveman--I did not remove the cap from the schrader valve, just loosened it. So I hear air escaping and it always leaks a bit when the tank is filling. I will remove it.
Re: a CSV, can I use it with my old style pressure tank (no diaphgram)? I'd prefer not to change out my tank if possible since it is in good shape. A CSV makes alot of sense!

Valveman, when I removed the Schrader valve cap the valve made noise for a long time, and the level of the water in the tank was dropping. Then the pump restarted and filled the tank, and then the Schrader valve made noise again, and then the pump reset the tank and it is working normally now.
Initially the pump was tripping the reset button on the control box, which I assume now was from the starter relay that was humming when the pump was running. But after replacing all of that, could it be that just the Schrader valve having a cap on was causing continued tripping of the switch?

I was going to call the service company to do the electrical measurements on the pump, but they aren't open until Monday. I'm hoping things don't go out permanently before then since its nearly 100 degrees here.

 

[Reach4]

Valveman, when I removed the Schrader valve cap the valve made noise for a long time, and the level of the water in the tank was dropping. Then the pump restarted and filled the tank, and then the Schrader valve made noise again, and then the pump reset the tank and it is working normally now.

Removing the valve cap for a snifter valve should not change the behavior. The fact that you had a big effect, that means that a tire valve cap had been put on there by mistake. So that could cause too little air. But with too little air, the pressure should have risen to 20 psi faster than normal, rather than slower. So a bad pump is likely. That would tend to be accompanied by less than normal current for some failure modes. A substantial hole in the pipe would increase the current more than normal. So the well service folks should be prepared to replace the pump. I hope they have a smaller pump on the truck for you this time.

Measuring current with a clamp-around ammeter can be an easy DIY thing. Clamp only goes around one wire at a time-- not two.

 

[jmoser]

Removing the valve cap for a snifter valve should not change the behavior. The fact that you had a big effect, that means that a tire valve cap had been put on there by mistake. So that could cause too little air. But with too little air, the pressure should have risen to 20 psi faster than normal, rather than slower. So a bad pump is likely. That would tend to be accompanied by less than normal current for some failure modes. A substantial hole in the pipe would increase the current more than normal. So the well service folks should be prepared to replace the pump. I hope they have a smaller pump on the truck for you this time.

Measuring current with a clamp-around ammeter can be an easy DIY thing. Clamp only goes around one wire at a time-- not two.

Thank you! Its definitely taking a long time to get from zero to 10#, then goes slightly faster from 10-22#, then fills at a faster more normal rate.
I don't have a clamp around meter, only my multimeter. I'll have the company out to check on it on Monday, and anticipate a new pump

re: a smaller pump, how will that affect my water pressure for watering the lawn, etc? And can I use the a CSV on my system even though I don't have a diaphragm tank?

Thanks so much for the help...

 

[Reach4]

re: a smaller pump, how will that affect my water pressure for watering the lawn, etc? And can I use the a CSV on my system even though I don't have a diaphragm tank?

You can, but I think the CSV would come after the snifter valve and above-ground check valve. I would put more pressure on the bleeder too. I don't know if that would be a problem.

 

[jmoser]

Here's details of my pump cycling. Got my clamp amp meter this morning. Pump cycles frequently with 2 hoses running (like in 2.5 minutes). Took videos but don't know if its worth your time if I were able to upload them.
Ran tank pressure down to 30. Pump comes on. Water spurts out of AVC briefly with some force (it doesn't just trickle out, it spits).
Pump amps = Red 1.9 (normal 1.3) Black 10.4 (normal 9.9) Yellow 10.7-11 (normal 10). I called the service company who put in the pump and motor. They looked up the normals for me and said my numbers are a little high but borderline, the pump should not be causing the problem.
Pressure builds to 50# in about 2.5 minutes. When pump stops, snifter valve starts drawing air and goes for a good while. Snifter valve used to leak water but is not doing that at all right now.
Over the past few days, the pump has tripped off at least once a day. Worries me that it is getting more frequent. Good news if its not the pump/motor, but then what? I'm afraid one of these times it won't come on at all...

 

[Reach4]

Now you can see that the system is mostly working, now that the valve cap is off. You could replace that cap with one made to go on a snifter valve, or maybe there is a way to convert a cap with a drill.


Regarding the intermittant cut-out, one possibility is that the start cap in the control box is weak, causing the motor to not start immediately, causing the low-pressure cutout pressure switch to turn off.

Another possibility is that you should raise the pressure switch setting by maybe 2 psi. That would call for turning the nut on the big spring about 0.7 turns clockwise. That would start the pump sooner. You could try that while waiting for the new capacitor to arrive. Replacing an 8-year-old start capacitor that was still working may be a good preventative.

 

[Valveman]

It sounds like your pump is cycling fairly normally now. 2.5 minutes on and off is about as good as you can get without a CSV. And yes you could use a CSV with an air over water tank, but there are some things to consider. The bleeder only adds air when the pump cycles on. With a CSV it doesn't cycle nearly as often, so placing the bleeder further down the well helps. This way when the pump does cycle it adds twice as much air to the tank. The CSV does cause more back pressure and will pop out a rubber bleeder, but works fine with a brass bleeder. If you are replacing the pump, you don't have to go with a smaller pump, just plug the bleeder and switch to a Cycle Stop Valve system with a new 4.5 or 10 gallon diaphragm style tank.

Oh and BTW, the amps sound OK, so replace the pressure switch, start cap, and start relay and maybe it will quit tripping the overloads.

 

[Reach4]

Oh and BTW, the amps sound OK, so replace the pressure switch, start cap, and start relay and maybe it will quit tripping the overloads.

I see that, since an over-powered pump would use more than current than the same pump pumping water from its design depth.

maybe it will quit tripping the overloads.

I had assumed the tripping was the low pressure cutoff. After review think I misinterpreted about what was tripping now. But I could see the motor not starting could trip the control box overload before the low-pressure cutout cut the power.

A new box gets a new start relay and a new start capacitor and then some. I am thinking that the capacitor is the more predictable failure with time.

 

[jmoser]

I see that, since an over-powered pump would use more than current than the same pump pumping water from its design depth.

I had assumed the tripping was the low pressure cutoff. After review think I misinterpreted about what was tripping now. But I could see the motor not starting could trip the control box overload before the low-pressure cutout cut the power.

A new box gets a new start relay and a new start capacitor and then some. I am thinking that the capacitor is the more predictable failure with time.

I did replace the start relay (which had been humming) and the black capacitor, the pressure switch and the schrader valve. I did not replace the silver capacitor since it was testing "good".
The only other thing that has not been replaced on the system (besides the whole control box) is the AVC and the reset button--which has been used very frequently during this period. Could it be that after I replaced the start relay, and capacitor, the reset button is faulty now?
The system seems to be working correctly now and has not tripped for 24 hours.

I'm so glad to hear that my pump sounds ok.
Guess what--I called Cycle Stop Valves this morning and ordered a CSV and new tank kit. Kind of freaked me out to see how often my pump is cycling. Hopefully the tripping problem will get resolved and my pump will have a longer life.
Thanks for all the help here, I will come back to report when I find the guilty component.

 

[Valveman]

Yes it could very well be a bad reset button. Those are not made to be reset very many times. The silver capacitor should be fine. If you have replaced the black capacitor and square black relay, you might as well put on a new reset button. It should only be tripping if the amps are greater than SFA, which I think is 11 something on your pump.

Also, you will need to either plug the bleeder down the well or make sure it is a brass one before switching to a diaphragm style tank and using a Cycle Stop Valve.

 

[Reach4]

Could it be that after I replaced the start relay, and capacitor, the reset button is faulty now?

Possible. How much would it cost to replace that?