Fleck 5600sxt will not draw brine, technician is scratching is head! Help!

[Bannerman]

I viewed both Wrekin's and Gap's web sites. Neither appears to offer a Green cap version, only White for the 5600SXT. Along with Ditttohead's point, perhaps the distributor in the UK, did not obtain Green caps bur instead chose to use White for both 5600 mechanical and 5600SXT downflow pistons?

Although Wrekin says to match the Nylon cap colour when selecting a replacement piston for the 5600, that makes things confusing to verify the appropriate piston was obtained for a 5600SXT.

As the piston version modifies the timing for various regeneration processes for the 5600 mechanical, it makes sense for the 5600SXT/SE controllers to use a different piston since all settings are adjustable using the digital controls.

I suggest contacting the supplier who sold you the current piston to ask how you may verify your piston is the correct one for your 5600SXT. You might suggest they may have supplied the piston designed for the mechanical valve.

You will need to obtain the correct 2.0 gpm DLFC restrictor regardless.

 

[Chris Sexton]

Hi, thanks. I've not replaced the piston. It looks as good as new - I can't believe there's anything amiss with it. Given that I've got it to draw once or twice my suspicion is that either (i) the piston isn't being pushed down far enough by the piston-head mechanism any more - and so the water isn't being allowed through to drain in the BD phase or (ii). The resin tank is blocked so that all I'm ever seeing is water going through the head and never through the resin. If the water can't through the resin tank to drain during BD (and so can't create the vacuum) it get's forced into the brine tank (any ideas how to check this?) I've had the head apart so many times I can't believe that there's a block anywhere - it all looks good as new and when I replaced the spacers and O-rings I was disappointed that the ones coming out looked cleaner and better quality than the ones going in. Thanks again all. Chris

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

With the piston, the Teflon coating can become worn, scratched or start to flake including on the shaft that slides through the cap.

The seals will be the common wear point as the piston will slide within and be in contact with each. A light coating of food-grade silicone grease type lubricant will reduce wear and the potential for a seal becoming torn during assembly.

The water flowing to drain during BW, BD and Rapid Rinse is all flowing through the resin tank, through the resin bed. Because the flow rate during BD will be less than during BW and RR, BD should have less resistance if there was to be a restriction within the media tank as you suspect.

My first recommendation to you was to remove, inspect and clean the injector as that is the device that when water flows through it, creates suction on the brine port to draw in brine. If there is a blockage through the injector, the water that is to flow through, could be restricted so as to exit through the brine port. When cleaning each injector piece, ensure each centre hole is fully open as it is possible for a speck of debris to become lodged within. Also, ensure the opening in the injector assembly where the injector throat is threaded into is also swabbed clean and is debris free as there have been instances where debris has become lodged past the injector throat.

If you remove the brine line where it connects to the top of the brine tank, suction should be felt when placing a finger over the open tube during BD. If suction is detected, then the draw issue will be caused within the brine pickup assembly within the brine tank.

Ditttohead had recommended a method to test the resin for the usual indicator of a problem with the resin. Bad resin can cause a flow restriction through the resin tank. I do not recall if you have performed that test.

As the DLFC button controls the amount of resin expansion during backwash, with only 1.4 gpm flow during BW, your resin will not have expanded as it should which can also lead to flow issues during BD.

 

[Reach4]

As the DLFC button controls the amount of resin expansion during backwash, with only 1.4 gpm flow during BW, your resin will not have expanded as it should which can also lead to flow issues during BD.

8 inch tank normally has a 1.5 gpm DLFC.

Injector has been out and cleaned on 4 or 5 occasions. Valve rebuilt. Nothing looks worn.

Brown #000 injector I presume. There are two pieces to that -- throat and nozzle. Were those replaced since the no-brine-draw started?

 

[Bannerman]

A 9" tank had been reported. 2.0 gpm normally.

 

[Reach4]

A 9" tank had been reported. 2.0 gpm normally.

Ahh... OK. So probably a #00 violet injector.

 

[Chris Sexton]

As the DLFC button controls the amount of resin expansion during backwash, with only 1.4 gpm flow during BW, your resin will not have expanded as it should which can also lead to flow issues during BD

If I take the DLFC out completely, I still get nothing out to drain during BD. So my conclusion is that nothing is going in - except that amount which is forcing it's way past the brine valve and into the brine tank. This suggests to me that water is not going through resin tank, though I accept your point Bannerman that water must be going through there on back wash etc (unless it's finding another way to drain?) The diagram above is hugely helpful, but it kind of suggests that there are lots of small waterway where things could get stuck - but that's not the case. The holes in the base unit are all large, clean and clear. I have the whole thing apart again. The injector and throat are clean and you can see through them. On BD, removing the line from the brine tank results just in being able to see the water coming out of the unit and into the brine tank.

It strikes me that the water is going through the screen, through the injector but not going into the resin tank at all, - because if it was, some would have to come back out - and run to the drain! Could it be a water pressure issue? Otherwise, I'm back with thinking there's something amiss with the resin tank. I haven't wrested the base of the unit off of the resin cylinder yet, - seems very tight. Is there a method for doing this? I'm worried about cracking the unit, though, given it's hell-bent on not working...

Anyway, huge thanks to all for your help. As I said earlier, it's become a challenge / puzzle that I'm interested in solving for my own sanity as much as anything else now. Chris

 

[Reach4]

It strikes me that the water is going through the screen, through the injector but not going into the resin tank at all, - because if it was, some would have to come back out - and run to the drain!

How about pulling off the Injector and Drain Housing, and clean that on the bench. Maybe use a waterpik or chenille pipe cleaner. I would review post #13.

 

[Bannerman]

The piston controls which path water flow is to take within the valve and through the media tank. If the incorrect piston is installed, or if there is wear or a defect with a seal, then the valve may not function as intended.

Within the resin tank, there is empty space at the top where the hard water enters and there is a column of resin below which the water flows through and where hardness is removed. There is often a gravel base at the bottom which surrounds the bottom screen. Once the softened water enters the bottom screen, it will flow up the centre riser tube to flow to your home's faucets and fixtures.

During BW, the flow direction is reversed, but the water exiting at the top through the valve will flow to drain. During BD and RR, the brine and rinse water flowing down through the resin will flow up the centre riser tube to drain.

As you are concerned with a blockage within the media tank, you had been advised by Ditttohead to remove the control valve to sample the resin as bad resin can result in flow issues within the media tank.

 

[Chris Sexton]

The piston controls which path water flow is to take within the valve and through the media tank. If the incorrect piston is installed, or if there is wear or a defect with a seal, then the valve may not function as intended.

Within the resin tank, there is empty space at the top where the hard water enters and there is a column of resin below which the water flows through and where hardness is removed. There is often a gravel base at the bottom which surrounds the bottom screen. Once the softened water enters the bottom screen, it will flow up the centre riser tube to flow to your home's faucets and fixtures.

During BW, the flow direction is reversed, but the water exiting at the top through the valve will flow to drain. During BD and RR, the brine and rinse water flowing down through the resin will flow up the centre riser tube to drain.

As you are concerned with a blockage within the media tank, you had been advised by Ditttohead to remove the control valve to sample the resin as bad resin can result in flow issues within the media tank.

Hi, pic above of the piston, brine value, injector and throat. The injector and throat are reddish brown and do look a bit grubbly, but there a clear, clean hole right through both - so I can't believe there's an issue. Similarly with the drain - if I take out the button and retainer and still get nothing to drain on BD is can't be an issue with those components - i.e. waters not reaching the button in the first place. The whole thing is apart again (as you can see) I will flush with water. Thanks for the video on removing the valve from the resin tank. That's my next port of call. One other thought is water pressure - too little, too much? Thanks all, once again.

 

[Reach4]

Ahh... OK. So probably a #00 violet injector.

Hi, pic above of the piston, brine value, injector and throat. The injector and throat are reddish brown

So a #000 Brown injector.

 

[Reach4]

Hi, thanks. I've not replaced the piston. It looks as good as new - I can't believe there's anything amiss with it. Given that I've got it to draw once or twice my suspicion is that either (i) the piston isn't being pushed down far enough by the piston-head mechanism any more - and so the water isn't being allowed through to drain in the BD phase or (ii). The resin tank is blocked so that all I'm ever seeing is water going through the head and never through the resin. If the water can't through the resin tank to drain during BD (and so can't create the vacuum) it get's forced into the brine tank (any ideas how to check this?) I've had the head apart so many times I can't believe that there's a block anywhere - it all looks good as new and when I replaced the spacers and O-rings I was disappointed that the ones coming out looked cleaner and better quality than the ones going in. Thanks again all. Chris

As I see it, there are six paths to consider for why there no flow out the drain line during BD.

1. Input/output pipes (connected to bypass during regen) via piston to the screen.
2. thru the screen
3. screen to injector under cover
4. Injector to top of resin via manifold path
5. top of resin via resin to distributor bottom basket
6. distributor tube via via piston to drain line.

#1 is a candidate
#2 you have checked that the screen is clear
#3 is a a space under cover, and you know that is clear.
#4 seems like a candidate.
IMO no way #5 is totally preventing even a low flow to the drain, even if the resin were badly deteriorated.
#6 is a candidate.

With the brine assembly cover off, can you see the piston through the screen hole, or is that a non-straight path?

 

[Bannerman]

A prior post in this thread reported BD success after cleaning inside the socket the injector throat threads into. I do not recall if you said you have cleaned in there, but even if you have, it might be worthwhile redoing.

Suggest thoroughly cleaning the injector pieces as you said they appear a little grubby. Although unlikely to prevent slow rinse flow through the injector, any residue may negatively effect the injector's ability to create suction on the brine port.

Although bad resin is unlikely to prevent all slow rinse flow through the resin, Ditttohead first recommended obtaining a resin sample. As the highest qualified regular contributor to this forum, suggest proceeding with his recommendation as he will have a reason for doing so.

 

[Chris Sexton]

As I see it, there are six paths to consider for why there no flow out the drain line during BD.

1. Input/output pipes (connected to bypass during regen) via piston to the screen.
2. thru the screen
3. screen to injector under cover
4. Injector to top of resin via manifold path
5. top of resin via resin to distributor bottom basket
6. distributor tube via via piston to drain line.

#1 is a candidate
#2 you have checked that the screen is clear
#3 is a a space under cover, and you know that is clear.
#4 seems like a candidate.
IMO no way #5 is totally preventing even a low flow to the drain, even if the resin were badly deteriorated.
#6 is a candidate.

With the brine assembly cover off, can you see the piston through the screen hole, or is that a non-straight path?

Huge thanks for this Reach 4, I now have the thing in about as many peices as possible and am working through your v helpful list. On #1 is it not the case that if it's filling the brine tank during brine draw it must be going via the screen - or might it be going straight into the brine line from the hole it shares with the drain?
#4 I think I've checked out. Now have the base of the unit of the off of the resin tank and can see every thing - and it's all clean and clear. I now also understand how the water flows either way through the tank depending what phase it's in.
#on 6, not sure how I can check this, though there are impediments to it whatsoever.
On yr last point, yes I can see straight through the screen hole to the piston.

I've looked at the resin itself and I'm really not sure. The particle are much smaller than I thought and my first thought was that they were 'muddy and a bit squishy as described by one of the contributors above when they're rubbed. But on reflection I think they're okay - they're just very small - but I don't think I'm really crushing them. Any more thoughts on this thought would be much appreciated.

It's been really helpful going through this, as I think I can see that it may well be the positioning of the piston that's doing it. If it's not closing off the access direct to the hold for the drain/brine line the flow is going straight there - and not bothering to forced it's way through the injector. Not sure how I can check this - but it seems likely. This might bring us all the way back to wrong piston! Having said that, if it;s original then it implies that it's never worked.

Thanks again

Chris

 

[Chris Sexton]

A prior post in this thread reported BD success after cleaning inside the socket the injector throat threads into. I do not recall if you said you have cleaned in there, but even if you have, it might be worthwhile redoing.

Suggest thoroughly cleaning the injector pieces as you said they appear a little grubby. Although unlikely to prevent slow rinse flow through the injector, any residue may negatively effect the injector's ability to create suction on the brine port.

Although bad resin is unlikely to prevent all slow rinse flow through the resin, Ditttohead first recommended obtaining a resin sample. As the highest qualified regular contributor to this forum, suggest proceeding with his recommendation as he will have a reason for doing so.

Thanks Bannerman, I've now got access to the resin. Not sure either way, but I'd say it's probably okay. My thought is really coming back to piston positioning - or maybe when I replaced the spacers and seals they are wrong or wrongly assembled. Evernthign is now so thoroughly clean and clear that I can't believe there's any other reason other than the water is not being forced past the injector - rather it's finding it's way straight down the brine line. (Though why none of it is bothering going down the drain which is in the same place, I don't know. Anyway, all thought appreciated and thanks again. I feel I'm getting closer! Chris

 

[Reach4]

On #1 is it not the case that if it's filling the brine tank during brine draw it must be going via the screen - or might it be going straight into the brine line from the hole it shares with the drain?

Not sure about the path, but at least that path is therefore known to be not blocked by the piston during bd.

I've looked at the resin itself and I'm really not sure. The particle are much smaller than I thought

I found my regular size resin smaller than I had pictured. Imagine what fine resin looks like.

 

[Chris Sexton]

Hi, I'm about to put my softener back together for one last attempt to get it working. Couple of quick questions if I may. 1). Do either of you know definitely which way round the drain button goes? There is a small outer ridge on one side and numbers on the other (mine are 080, F and 13 ill 90 degrees apart). Anyway, I've found 2 different videos contradicting each other as to which faces into the head and which towards the drain.
2). I've become increasingly convinced that the piston is not moving fully and therefore water is being allowed to go down the brine line instead of being forced past the injector. This may be a matter of lubrication. The piston has never moved as freely as I'd have liked once put back into the head. I've used silicone grease. Is there anything better? And does it not just get washed away in time anyway? Also any thoughts on the extent of torque needed on the head screws (the tighter they are the more constricted the piston feels - though, obviously, too loose and it will leak) would be appreciated. Thanks both, Chris

 

[Bannerman]

1) The numbers are to face the valve.

The diagram at the bottom left of this link, illustrates how both the BLFC & DLFC function.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/66

2) Impared piston movement is often indicative of a defect in one or more seals or a defect with the piston Teflon coating.

Food grade silicone grease is the appropriate lubricant. A light coating will only be required including the outer mating surface to the valve and the inner opening of each seal to ensure the piston will slide easily within the stack.

 

[Chris Sexton]

1) The numbers are to face the valve.

The diagram at the bottom left of this link, illustrates how both the BLFC & DLFC function.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/66

2) Impared piston movement is often indicative of a defect in one or more seals or a defect with the piston Teflon coating.

Food grade silicone grease is the appropriate lubricant. A light coating will only be required including the outer mating surface to the valve and the inner opening of each seal to ensure the piston will slide easily within the stack.

Thanks for all your help. But I've now called time on the wretched thing. There's not a single thing left to check, and it's still happily chugging water into the brine tank during BD like it was designed to do nothing else. I've run it on BD with the drain button and retainer out and still get next to no flow, so my guess is the water is struggling to get through the resin tank - or the piston is worn and the water is not being forced into the screen and injector channel. Either way I'm not going to throw more good money after bad - so Fleck 5600 is taking its final journey to the great water softener park in the sky. Regards to all. Chris

 

[Reach4]

Thanks for all your help. But I've now called time on the wretched thing. There's not a single thing left to check, and it's still happily chugging water into the brine tank during BD like it was designed to do nothing else. I've run it on BD with the drain button and retainer out and still get next to no flow, so my guess is the water is struggling to get through the resin tank - or the piston is worn and the water is not being forced into the screen and injector channel. Either way I'm not going to throw more good money after bad - so Fleck 5600 is taking its final journey to the great water softener park in the sky. Regards to all. Chris

I am sorry to hear that, but I understand the need for a working softener. It would be interesting to try poking a flexible probe in from the injector cover area to make sure that there is a path into the manifold during BD time.