DIY philosophy

[NurseDoe]

DIY Advice

I can give an example of why I am learning to "do it myself". My son ( a physics major, so no dummy) and his wife ( the Army electrical specialist) set out to install an outdoor electrical outlet for the pool pool pump. My son accidently hit a water line. They turned off the main and tried all day and night to fix it. They took the parts to Home Depot, and no one there knew what kind of pipe it was or how to fix it. The same at Lowe's. The went to a distant, huge plumbing supply place that gave them two brass couplings/shark bites or inta somethings, and they tried to fix it again. No luck.

1. We call plumber #1. He estimates $400.00 but isn't sure what kind of pipe that is. Looks like the water company pipe. We decide to try on our own again because the plumber doesn't seem confident.

The kids try again. It holds for two days, but breaks again.

2. We call plumber #2. He is young, working for a big company. He doesn't know the pipe. He says he would have to cut each end of "shark bites", get new ones and try to get the right pipe at the big plumbing store. But his wrist hurts and it looks really hard. There would be no guarantee. Another hour of hemming and hawing in >100 degree desert heat, no water, no swamp cooler. Finally, he says he will have to call another more experienced plumber. (Scream!) Estimate >350-450 dollars. (Keep in mind, they don't have to dig, or get parts)

3. I call the water company and tell them somehow we have PE on our property and local plumbers don't seem to know what to do. Can they tell us how to fix it. They say they will come by "later" and look at it. It is understood the water company never touches anything on our side of the meter. They are not sure why we have their lines on our side.

4. Plumber # 3 shows up. Older experienced guy. Hems and Haws, walks around. Says he did this once before back in the day. He can try, but you know it may be cheaper to run a new main ( on an acre and 1/2 !) Maybe he can just cap off that section for 300.00. Just then water company pulls up.

Water man looks down, asks the guy with him to bring a bevler and O ring. Reaches down and in less than 30 seconds, takes it apart, fixes it. REally, looked like a guy roping a calf! Plumber #3 was unhappy, saying he thought the water company doesn't fix anything on this side of the meter. "what's so different about today?" Water man says " Well, today is her lucky day".

The price ? Free. The lesson for this do it yourselfer? Plumbers don't always know what they are doing. This is the third time, we have had a problem the pros seemed as clueless as we were. Had a I known about this place, I could have taken a picture and I am confident that I would have been given great advice. Like, bevel that pipe so you don't cut the O ring.

Oh, the other lesson? Yeah, get those guys to come out and mark all the underground lines! Thank Gawd it was water and not gas!

 

[Cass]

Yes you learned about having the utilities marked but they rarely mark water lines, at least here they don't.

But not having gas, electric, cable and any other under ground services marked before you dig can be very costly far more costly than what you experienced not only in $$$ but possibly life and or property.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

Am I mistaken, or did the whole problem start as a result of a DIY?

 

[Frenchie]

... and ended by getting the right pro in?

I was a little confused by that story, too.

 

[Kordts]

Good call Grumpy and frenchie.

 

[Verdeboy]

... and ended by getting the right pro in?
I was a little confused by that story, too.

So, the 3 licensed plumbers weren't the "right pro"?

1 for 4 isn't even a good baseball average.

 

[Frenchie]

Verde, that's exactly what I meant.

1. We call plumber #1. He estimates $400.00 but isn't sure what kind of pipe that is. Looks like the water company pipe. We decide to try on our own again because the plumber doesn't seem confident.

The kids try again. It holds for two days, but breaks again.

then comes 2, 3 and 4...


I don't expect my electrician to know how to work on transmission lines. Do you? Different sub-trades have their different materials, techniques, and tools.

Before you ask me "How am I supposed to know which one to call?" ...well, that's the chance you take by DIYing. The risk you're always taking is that there will be something you won't know.

If you want to hire out the "knowing who to call when" part... that's what General Contractors do for a living.

 

[Verdeboy]

Verde, that's exactly what I meant.



then comes 2, 3 and 4...


I don't expect my electrician to know how to work on transmission lines. Do you? Different sub-trades have their different materials, techniques, and tools.

Before you ask me "How am I supposed to know which one to call?" ...well, that's the chance you take by DIYing. The risk you're always taking is that there will be something you won't know.

If you want to hire out the "knowing who to call when" part... that's what General Contractors do for a living.

Let me get this straight.

The average person needs to hire a General Contractor to figure out what kind of plumber to call when he/she has a leaky pipe on the residential side of the meter?

 

[Leejosepho]

... did the whole problem start as a result of a DIY?

No. Anybody could have hit that water line while installing something else.

 

[Prashster]

You guys are making too much of this.

There are good and bad diyer's. There are good and bad pro's.

DIYing to save a buck is a dicey endeavor - best left to instances where a mess up will have only aesthetic consequences and not life-threatening or legal ones. DIYing to learn how spot and do a good job is different and admirable.

I became a diyer because of bad experiences with a pro a few years back. I find that ironically, I spend more money on contractors now, because I have a better sense of what things cost in materials, my own time to do a job right, and where potential snafus could be. I'm better able to appreciate how experience and workmanship makes a seemingly exhorbitant price an actual bargain.

 

[Frenchie]

Let me get this straight.

The average person needs to hire a General Contractor to figure out what kind of plumber to call when he/she has a leaky pipe on the residential side of the meter?

Verde, are you deliberately being difficult about this, or what? I said, "if you want to hire out..." Which part of that wasn't clear to you?

There's no such thing as "the average person". Some people build their own houses from scratch; some people don't even do their own laundry & housecleaning, but hire a cleaner. There's no one-size-fits-all for this stuff.


Fact: the problem started with a DIY attempt to install an outlet for a pool pump.

Fact: the problem was solved by a pro.

Therefore: it's kind of a strange story to use, if the poster's trying to explain why she's DIYing.


You need to get over this "diy vs pro" thing, dude. Each approach has its strengths and weaknesses.

I just don't think this particular story was a good example of DIYing's advantages. In fact, it seems quite the opposite. Rather than try to twist the story around, to make it support something it doesn't, why not just tell a story that does illustrate the advantages?

 

[Verdeboy]

Frenchie,

It was never my intention to pit DIYers against Pros.

I only jumped into this thing after I read how 3 licensed plumbers were clueless about how to fix a leaky pipe (but they still wanted to charge hundreds of dollars without knowing what the heck they were doing) and several of the "Pros" on this forum weighed in to defend these incompetents.

 

[Frenchie]

See, there you go again: "these incompetents". I aksed you before, do you think my electrician is "incompetent", because he's not familiar with a lineman's tools & materials & techniques?


All 3 "hemmed and hawed" (her own words). All 3 were hesitant, expressed confusion, and offered no guarantees. We'll have to wait for Nursedoe to tell us for sure, but all three may have suggested calling the water company; we already know that the first one did.

For that, you want to call them incompetent?


Tell me again, how you're not trying to pit pros against DIYers. Maybe if you repeat it enough, I'll start to believe you.

 

[Verdeboy]

If your electrician was called to do lineman's work, and he didn't know what he was doing, and he didn't have the right tools, but nonetheless, he gave an estimate of several hundred dollars to do the job in an incorrect fashion and couldn't guarantee anything, I'd say he is either incompetent or a crook. If he says he is not qualified and passes on the job, he is neither.

I also agree with LeeJosepho's point:

It really doesn't matter how a pipe becomes ruptured. If you can't trust a plumber to fix it, who can you call? Remember, this pipe was on the residential side of the meter, and the water department fella only fixed it out of the goodness of his heart. That sort of thing is very unusual.

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

Frenchie...I make the mistake of debating too often here...you know, you've seen me.
Terry got me, this is a DIY forum for DIY'ers and I came in like gangbusters with the whole "hire a plumber" routine.
There are the renegade "I'm gonna do what I want" types...and I figure let 'em, as long as they have been told what the potential dangers are, they're making an informed decision.
We see alotta folks here that seem to want to display pro's mistakes as justification to avoid hiring them, I can't deny...there are hacks out there.
That doesn't mean I'll tackle my electrical anytime soon...I know what can happen if I use the wrong guage wire and don't tie in a circuit breaker correctly.
I just make a point of noticing when someone comes in asking how to do something that is potentially dangerous, or life threatening, and inform them so.
You're good people, you know that line...no need to be a defensive butthead like me.

 

[NurseDoe]

What happened with the pipes.

Okay, plumber #1 was about the 3rd we called. The others said they didn't work outside.

Plumber #1 spoke with my visting Uncle ( who offered to pay for a plumber) and told him that it was water company pipe. He didn't say to call the water company. He just seemed uncertain that he could fix it. Said the big couplings (I will go get pictures, later) were not the right kind. No guarantees and $400.00 at least. That seemed like a lot of money.

Plumber #2 was very young. Not that there is anything wrong with young ( like late teens, early 20's). But, he was the most unsure. He talked the most about how difficult it would be. How he would have to cut everything apart and he was not certain he could get it back together because the pipe was not very flexible. Then he started talking about his wrist hurting and how hard it was and he would have to call in someone more experienced.

Plumber #3, was experienced. He had fixed that pipe once, a long time ago and it was very hard work indeed. The whole thing had to be cut apart. I didn't understand that part, since one coupling seemed to be working fine. The second one only had a small leak on one side. But he was the pro. At that point, I was willing to pay the $400.00 to fix it. No one ever could figure out why the pipe was there. I mean in that particular place.

Water Company guy was very nice. And everyone was amazed that he offered to fix it. Even more amazed that he did so quickly. I honestly expected to see his hand fly up like a calf roper signaling he was finished!

Now, my point is not that the pros are crooks. I don't think that. I think the problem is that some people call themselves pros when they are not. I suspect that is the case. Especially with plumber #2.

All said that the water company would not fix it because it was on my side of the meter.

I think that if the main gets broken again. I will go to the plumbing supply, and get those big couplings ( I tried google images, they don't look like Shark bites. They are big, heavy brass things that look like two cones stuck together.) and fix it.

There are things I will not try. I will not try to do the shower pan. I will hire that out. I won't install a new tub. But, come on, installing sinks and toliets are not supposed to be this hard. Daughter in law did some electrical stuff that makes me nervous, but if the Army lets her fix missle defense electrical stuff, I think I can trust her to install a GFI.

(BTW, the last electrician I had out still makes me giggle. I called him because the wall toggle switch kept shorting out. He came out, disconnected the wire from the toggle. He said that there was a short somewhere in the wire, but the wire was in the attic/crawlspace (ranch house). He wasn't going up there to fix it because there might be spiders. Seriously. $150.00 to disconnect the toggle switch that remains disconnected five years later.)

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

OK...flare fitting...definitely flare...the "cone shape" reference gives that away.
I'm going to be flat out honest.
If you'd called me, I'd have been plumber #4 staring at it and envisioning myself shutting off your water, then taking a section to a plumbing supply with no guarentee they'd have fittings that usually only the water dept has.
(they use materials and fittings plumbers don't...as do gas co's)
I'd be thinking of the other customers I had scheduled that day, and the fact that you likely wouldn't be happy to pay for my time to run all over creation trying to find the fitting...all with the possibility lurking that you'd wind up with no water after all that, and me with the compromising decision of hitting you with a bill for my time even thouigh I couldn't repair it.
The fact that this type line is on the wrong side of the meter is nothing but a headache.
To question the professionalism of a plumber in this scenario would be like you having a patient come in with internal bleeding and no doctor around.

Would you take on the task of opening him up, then face the consequences?

 

[NurseDoe]

Renegade?

Some of us aren't renegades. Not even a little. Some of us just are in over our heads. This house takes so much work. I would love to hire a plumber and an electrician ( one that is not afraid of the dark or spiders). But, my thought is that if it costs $400.00 for 30 minute of pipe repair ( I added in drive time) , what is it going to cost to put in a sink? Or worse yet, the shower with the 2.25-2.5 inch thick concrete wall behind it. This was originally a two income house. It is now just me, so money is very tight. I have so many things I would rather be doing on my days off than crying over the leaking p trap I installed (BTW, I fixed it again) I would rather be swimming in the pool, or reading.

There should be a life 101 class. One thing I would have learned is that no matter how charming an older house is, you need to take a course in home repairs. Those huge beautiful trees that keep the house nice in the desert sun? They eat the plumbing! They will keep going through the main drain lines, no matter how much copper or root killer you throw down. Every six months the plumber comes and charges 100 bucks to snake the lines. For Christmas, I got a huge electric drain cleaner/snake. Woo-hoo! Now just waiting for baby trees to grow so we can chop down the beautiful trees that are five feet from the house eating my plumbing. All those galvinized iron drain pipes? They were all installed at the same time and are all disintegrating at the same time! They are NOT a do it yourself project.

So, some of us ( like me) fix it ourselves because otherwise it would just stay broken.

I understand how frustrating your job is. I understand it takes mad skills to figure out how to work around some pretty interesting pipe jobs. It only takes a few bad guys out there to make many of us nervous about hiring someone.
Are you afraid of spiders?

 

[Frenchie]

Okay then - my bad.

I'd figured the "hemming and hawing" to mean they were trying to pass on it, without coming right out and saying so: "I can't make any guarantees, but if you want me to give it a shot, I can try..." sort of thing.

Sounds like that wasn't the case.

Especially #2, he does sound to young to be licensed - master plumber takes something like 10 years. (one of the plumbers can tell us exactly).


Forced to DIY by the low quality of the available tradesmen... has it really come down to this?


I still think it was a weird choice of stories... the electrician refusing to go into an attic (!?!) works way better.

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

My use of the word "renegade" wasn't to you.
I've seen landlords come in and ask how to replace water heaters and I wonder about the tennants that pay him to live in a sanitary,safe home. (would you be ok with your daughters landlord doing this?)
It's one thing to work on a sink drain...worse case you wreck the ceiling below or smell up your house from sewer gas (methane).
As for the house your in, you remind me of my mother in law...she's a sweetheart and I'm there every few months gutting more galvy drainage and replacing it.
She has been nothing but warm to me from the get-go...it's always a rough time trying to get away with not charging her, she pushes money at me I get "mad"...I just ask her to put some dark meat aside for me on thanksgiving.
You are not the "landlord" scenario...not at all.
It'd be my pleasure to help any way I can...and for the record $400 was a bit much for a simple fitting replacement, but if you read what I last posted, I hope you can understand why they were asking that much. You got very lucky with the water co fella, hopefully you gave him something to drink.