Box capacity exceeded, need advice

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Alectrician

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A minor violation IMO would be one or two inches over the capacity


Dude, you rag on me for MY opinion yet you violate the code and it's somehow OK?

You don't see the problem with that?


At least guys like JW will stick to their guns and claim they NEVER violate code.

I can make up a box with 4 14/2 and a 12/2 going right to the outlet with PLENTY of room. The 14/2's would probably take up the back 1/3 of the box.
 

Speedy Petey

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Dude, you rag on me for MY opinion yet you violate the code and it's somehow OK?
Yeah, I violate codes all the time. :rolleyes: Try again "dude". That's not what I said.

JW and others are VERY smart guys, but I am not them and they are not me. We do agree on most things though.
I am most certainly "sticking to my guns"
You can have your opinion and I can have mine. It's just I DO NOT suggest to a DIYer anything that would violate any codes.
If I feel one conductor over box fill is not a major violation that is my prerogative. I would just not suggest anyone else do the same.
Yes, it IS a "do as I say, not as I do" philosophy. And considering I do this every day, and have for many years, I think it's fine. Using the box fill scenario I think me making up a box with one too many wires is a BIG difference from a DIYer doing the same.
At the same time, making up a single gang box with more than SIX inches over fill is blatant stupidity!
 
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Alectrician

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You can have your opinion and I can have mine.


But yours is right and mine is somehow wrong?




Yes, it IS a "do as I say, not as I do" philosophy. And considering I do this every day, and have for many years, I think it's fine.


I have probably been doing it every day longer than you have.


making up a single gang box with more than SIX inches over fill is blatant stupidity!

Blatent stupidity is believing that you are somehow a better judge of right and wrong than I am.

You can backpeddle all day long but you can't get out of this one.




Back to the original post. Put the BS aside and educate me.

I didn't bother calculating the box fill, I never do. I just go from experience.

They might have changed it since the last time I actually looked it up (1970 something) but are'nt the wires 2 cubic inches each, the grounds a total of 1 and the device 2?

Isn't that 22?
 
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Speedy Petey

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You can backpeddle all day long but you can't get out of this one.
Backpeddle??? Yeah right. I'm perfectly fine with where I am. It's obvious who is who here. I'll leave it at that.






I didn't bother calculating the box fill, I never do. I just go from experience.

They might have changed it since the last time I actually looked it up (1970 something) but are'nt the wires 2 cubic inches each, the grounds a total of 1 and the device 2?

Isn't that 22?
All I can say is I am amazed at this and at your attitude towards the code. You say you've been doing this for sooo long, yet you have NO CLUE how to calculate box fill???????
This is Electric 101 stuff and you still don't know it.

No "dude", wires are NOT 2" each. #14 wire is. #12 wire is 2.25". Devices count as two, ALL the grounds count as one. The grounds and devices, etc, use the largest conductor in figuring fill.


You know what, we can quote quotes for days and you will still be your kind of electrician.
I am done with this thread. it's just not worth it.
Reply if you like, I know you will. I don't care.
 

JWelectric

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I am done with this thread. it's just not worth it.

Me too!!!!!!
I didn't even do this post; it was someone else doing it!!!

Code is code and the speed limit is the speed limit!!!

In my state one can lose their electrical license for doing non-code compliant installations.

I think that someone that would drive 56 MPH in a 55 MPH zone should have their vehicle impounded and sold at public auction and their privilege to drive suspended for a period of not less than twenty years.
One of the stipulations of their probation should be that if they are caught walking along the side of the road after losing their licenses for speeding their shoes and socks should be taken on the spot.

Maybe this would teach them that after spending the money to have a sign made, paying someone to install the sign, hiring someone to patrol the highways and doing this in a new car that the taxpayers bought with all the bells and whistles that come on those cars they would learn to drive the speed limit.

If we as taxpayers are not going to abide by the laws that we pay an ungodly amount of money to our lawmakers to design then why don’t we just fire the law makers and do as we please.

Also just what are we teaching our children? Aren’t we teaching them from a very early age that the laws are something to ignore?
When they break one to the rules we set for them what is the outcome? Don’t we punish them?

It is our job as parents to be a mentor for our children as well as all children and teach them that it is not alright to break the rules and laws that are set by those who we elect but instead to abide by all rules and laws.

Now I want everyone who is a member of this forum to go down to the court house in the morning and tell the Judge the truth if you have been speeding and take your medicine. Don’t wait until you have been caught just go down and tell the Judge what you have done and that you feel as you should receive the maximum punishment the law will allow.
 
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Alectrician

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Petey, all you have to do is stop thumping your chest whenever you disagre with me and your blood pressure will stay in the healthy range. You really shouldn't get all worked up like that.


And JW...the funny thing is.... I can't tell where your seriousness ends and the sarcasm begins. You DID mix some sarcasm in your post, didn't you?


Both you clowns need to relax a little.


According to Pete, the reason that the box is a SERIOUS violation is simply because ONE of the cables is #12 ....the one with NO make up that goes directly to the receptacle.


Do the 14's take up more space because there is a 12 in there? Do they swell up to somehow defend themselves in a priimal manner against this intruder?

I allow myself to make decisions when I am working just like Pete and everyone else except JW does. This "serious violation" is a no brainer....it's a non issue.

I understand the need for law and regulation. I also understand that it is difficult to write them in a 100% effective manner and generally it's best to error on the side of caution. A reasonable person is allowed to think for himself.

If anyone can explain the danger of one extra cable in this box, I am all ears.



And yes, I DO think it's funny that we are still going at it long after the item was resolved/corrected :)
 

JWelectric

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And JW...the funny thing is.... I can't tell where your seriousness ends and the sarcasm begins. You DID mix some sarcasm in your post, didn't you? :)
No! I am serious about everyone going to the courthouse first thing in the morning and turning their self in for speeding.

If we are going to blandly break the law then why have the law in the first place? Why pay all the people that are being paid to enforce a law that we are going to ignore?

How can we expect our children to abide by the rules that are set forth for them if we don’t abide by the rules that are set forth for us?

All one has to do before punishing their children is ask how much we have contributed to their actions.

I ask myself daily why this country has gone to the hogs like it has over my life time. Kids today have no respect for others or their selves.
How has this come about?
They learned it from the adults in their lives. Just a they learn to talk by listening to adults talk they learn to respect the law and other people by watching how Mom and Dad do these things or the actions of other adults.

I watched my Grandson as he progressed into his licenses. He follows to close (the two second rule) and drives at the same speed as the fastest car on the road. Why? Cause that is the way Mom and Dad does it.

It is my job as an adult to be a mentor for the young. Let my actions speak for my respect for the law not my words which are always different than my actions.
 

Alectrician

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I am serious about everyone going to the courthouse first thing in the morning and turning their self in for speeding.

OK...NOW you are starting to scare me.:eek:




If we are going to blandly break the law then why have the law in the first place?

Laws are necessary to prevent chaos. There is something referred to as "grey area" in which we must make our own decisions. Everyone has different grey areas and yours would be the most restrictive of anyone I have ever met. It's not a bad thing...just different. It take people like you and me to balance things out. Too many me's and we would shift towared chaos. Too many you's and we would become a cult of humans blindly following the authoritarian rule.

If you have ever read about those cults that somehow convince people to take their own lives you will find that the first step is to remove ALL decisions that "normal" people would have to make. Once you start trusting someone else to make all of your decisions your brain turns to mush and accepts anything it is told.




I watched my Grandson as he progressed into his licenses. He follows to close (the two second rule) and drives at the same speed as the fastest car on the road. Why? Cause that is the way Mom and Dad does it.

Well, using THAT logic, the reason your son or daughter does it is because you did it. PART of the reason is because that's the way his parents taught him (by example) but there are other influences in his life. There always will be.

You will be on one extreme end trying to teach him. He will no doubt run into some unsavory characters in his youth on the other end of the spectrum that will try to teach him to lie, cheat and steal. HOPEFULLY he will make good decisions and end up in a healthy middle ground.
 

JWelectric

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Laws are necessary to prevent chaos.
This is one of the best reasons be used to enforce a jail time for driving 56 in a 55. It is through our legal system, no matter how imperfect, that peace is continued. The upholding of the laws is the responsibility of all. It is through the acceptance of little infractions that lead to total chaos
There is something referred to as "grey area" in which we must make our own decisions.
Being that I am constantly in the building codes I think of gray being something that has already been used and is contaminated.
It is easy for someone that abides by the law seeing someone that breaks the law using the phrase “gray area†as an excuse.

Everyone has different grey areas and yours would be the most restrictive of anyone I have ever met. It's not a bad thing...just different. It take people like you and me to balance things out. Too many me's and we would shift towared chaos. Too many you's and we would become a cult of humans blindly following the authoritarian rule.
I can’t see anything that either of us have said as being a “grey areas†What I can see is that the nation today has moved more into chaos. As a child growing up I was allowed to walk five miles to catch a bus and ride to town every Saturday. I was the father of two children before I lived in a house with door locks.
Could I leave my house today and be gone for a week with no locks on the door? Would you let your children travel 25 miles one way and spend all day in town by their selves today?

If you have ever read about those cults that somehow convince people to take their own lives you will find that the first step is to remove ALL decisions that "normal" people would have to make. Once you start trusting someone else to make all of your decisions your brain turns to mush and accepts anything it is told.
I see that you have never been in the military. Yes I would give my life to protect my way of living and I bet that you would also.
I find that most people that think of their self as being “normal†really mean that they have become complicit. They are the same people that change lanes without looking and speed through a caution light.
The type of person that would not say anything if given back to much money without though of the person getting short changed but would do everything short of being arrested if they are shorted on change.

Not saying that this is either one of us, as you said, “Too many me's and we would shift towared chaos. Too many you's and we would become a cult.â€
It seems that you think us to be on opposite ends of the spectrum. If I am on the legal end of this to the point of being a cult, where did you say you fit in?
Well, using THAT logic, the reason your son or daughter does it is because you did it. PART of the reason is because that's the way his parents taught him (by example) but there are other influences in his life. There always will be.
Yes I did the same thing in front of my children as they did in front of theirs. Knowing the mistakes that my children are making with my Grandchildren as well as my Great Grandchildren came from experience. The one good thing is that my children are smart enough to listen to the wisdom of years gone by. Together we will break the cycle of monkey see monkey do.
They are listening as well as I explain to them the battles I faced with unsavory influences. As long as we can continue to learn from each other I don’t believe that unsavory influences will stand much of a chance to come between us. The one thing that will open the door to allow other influences to sway the thinking of my offspring is for me to start telling what their problems are instead of listening to them tell which problem they think has priority.

You will be on one extreme end trying to teach him. He will no doubt run into some unsavory characters in his youth on the other end of the spectrum that will try to teach him to lie, cheat and steal. HOPEFULLY he will make good decisions and end up in a healthy middle ground.
If I have been good enough of an example for them I think that they can see which is the correct choice and which will lead down the road to chaos.
It the box is 18 cubit inches then to fill it to 18.5 would be wrong. To drive 40 in a 35 MPH speed zone would be wrong as well as life threating to those who abide by the law.
 

Speedy Petey

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Petey, all you have to do is stop thumping your chest whenever you disagre with me and your blood pressure will stay in the healthy range. You really shouldn't get all worked up like that.)
See, now this does annoy me. Where are you getting this from???
I am not "worked up" and my BP is fine. You are reading way more into my posts than is there son.



There is something referred to as "grey area" in which we must make our own decisions.
There you go. You give the clear impression that you LIVE in the grey zone, while some of us slip into it momentarily.


Now I'm done.
 

Alectrician

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See, now this does annoy me. Where are you getting this from???


From your occaisional self rightious posts.


I am not "worked up" and my BP is fine. You are reading way more into my posts than is there son.


Heh heh...he called me "son".


You give the clear impression that you LIVE in the grey zone, while some of us slip into it momentarily.

And your point is that you are somehow superior because of these differences?

Now I'm done

Heh....I've heard that before. Try to remember that it's JUST a conversation.



And JW...you are a freak of nature. I mean that in a good way. Like I said, if everybody was like me life would be pretty dull. Let me ask you. Has the statute of limitations expired on all of your past criminal behavior? If not, I expect you to make an appearance tomorrow at court. It would make great headlines.

"Man turns himself in for decades old speeding violation" Sherriff's deputies were taken by surprise yesterday by a man who wanted to confess to having violated the speed limit by as much as 2 MPH on several occaisions in his life time. He appeared incoherrant and kept mumbling something about "310.24" and how we are all "going to the hogs". One official suggested the the man may have suffered "multiple electrical shocks thoughout his career" and this may explain his behavior.


Edit to answer JW's question.

If I am on the legal end of this to the point of being a cult, where did you say you fit in?

I think I am comfortably in the middle but I'm a moving target. Someone at the opposite end would advocate total anarchy and that is just as bad as a dictatorship.
 
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Well, while you guys were arguing, I installed my range hood. The box now has 17 or 18 cu. in. of wire and the hood is hard-wired. And it sucks...er... blows...whatever.
 

Jadnashua

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Come on guys...while there may be some silly things in the code, they are there to protect people. It is not your job to argue about whether it is silly, or if in this particular situation it is okay...it is to do it per the code. If you really feel it is dumb, then go through channels and lobby to have it changed. In the meantime, do it by the book! That's why they wrote the code and there are inspectors. I know some inspectors are a joke, but that doesn't detract from the fact that when you got your license, you basically signed a statement saying you would do work according to the code. What is your promise worth? When you leave the job, what about the pride of having done it well? Fudging an install, in my view, doesn't cut it. From a pro, I expect a professional result that is safe, lasts a long time, and meets all current codes for the work done. If you can't live up to that, you shouldn't be doing the job. Yes, in some circumstances, both you and the inspector may do something less than ideal, but I hope that is not the norm, and in that situation, you have two separate minds that came together making the decision.

Equating it to going over the speed-limit is not really logical. For those of you that buy something over the net, I'll bet you go right down to the state tax people and pay your fair share of sales tax, too. Building a house, wiring it, plumbing it is a long-term action that can have unseen ramifications if not done right, not an instant transient event.

If it gets any nastier than this, I'll close the thread. As it is now, it shows how some people just don't get the whole thing about the codebook. Not someone I'd want doing business for me.
 

Alectrician

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...while there may be some silly things in the code, they are there to protect people.


Same with any law.





It is not your job to argue about whether it is silly, or if in this particular situation it is okay...it is to do it per the code.


I'm not getting paid to argue points here.




If you really feel it is dumb, then go through channels and lobby to have it changed In the meantime, do it by the book!
.

I am talking about real life here.



When you leave the job, what about the pride of having done it well?

I am proud of my work. Having one extra wire in a jbox is nothing to be ashamed of. In MY opinion there are many LEGAL jobs that I would be ashamed to be a part of.

Fudging an install, in my view, doesn't cut it.


EVERYONE on earth except JW "fudges" . Pete admits to "fudging" He just believes that he is a better judge of how much cheating is allowed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From a pro, I expect a professional result that is safe, lasts a long time, and meets all current codes for the work done. If you can't live up to that, you shouldn't be doing the job
.

Yes, in some circumstances, both you and the inspector may do something less than ideal, but I hope that is not the norm, and in that situation, you have two separate minds that came together making the decision.

Which is it? Never violate code or only violate code sometimes?
---------------------------------------------------------------------




Equating it to going over the speed-limit is not really logical.

The comparison was to point out that breaking a law doesn't necessarily equate to reckless behavior (although JW would respectfull disagree)





Building a house, wiring it, plumbing it is a long-term action that can have unseen ramifications if not done right, not an instant transient event.


Again, what will happen If I put one wire too many in a box like that? Nothing........ EVER.


If it gets any nastier than this, I'll close the thread
.


This is nasty? You must be a lot more sensitive than I am. This is not even a heated debate in my opinion. The only reason to lock the thread would be to avoid the questions posed.



As it is now, it shows how some people just don't get the whole thing about the codebook. Not someone I'd want doing business for me


I assume you mean me, although Petey also violates the code.
 

JWelectric

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And JW...you are a freak of nature. I mean that in a good way. Like I said, if everybody was like me life would be pretty dull. Let me ask you. Has the statute of limitations expired on all of your past criminal behavior? If not, I expect you to make an appearance tomorrow at court. It would make great headlines.
I have already did this and paid my fines and walked out of the courtroom with a relief.
Didn't make any kind of head lines but did gain a lot of respect from my family. Now it is your turn and I am eagerly awaiting the outcome.
Come on guys
If it gets any nastier than this, I'll close the thread. As it is now, it shows how some people just don't get the whole thing about the codebook. Not someone I'd want doing business for me.
You have my vote to lock her down now although there are some that are learning from the thread and I hope to have them join in the next few days. I always have my students wait until they have graduated before joining a site that we use in the classroom and this one draws to an end so they will be free to join.
 

BrianJohn

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I expect a professional result that is safe, lasts a long time, and meets all current codes for the work done. If you can't live up to that, you shouldn't be doing the job. Yes, in some circumstances, both you and the inspector may do something less than ideal, but I hope that is not the norm, and in that situation, you have two separate minds that came together making the decision.
.

Unfortunately, a majority of our trade does work less than professional, either because they do not know, failed to keep up with changes or do not give a durn. it is just seldom that one stands up and admits it.
 

Alectrician

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I have already did this and paid my fines and walked out of the courtroom with a relief.


I wish I could believe you JW. That would be very interesting.




Unfortunately, a majority of our trade does work less than professional, either because they do not know, failed to keep up with changes or do not give a durn. it is just seldom that one stands up and admits it.

Be careful casting those stones Brian. You are insinuating that:

A). You and your employees never ever violate code.

B). You run an unprofessional shop.

There are minor violations every single day. It's the nature of the job. I'm talking about an extra cable in a JBox. I'm talking about screwing plastic boxes to a stud. I'm talking about protecting a piece of NM with EMT coming out of a house going into a panel. I'm talking about UG PVC that isn't a full 18inches. EVERYONE except JW makes these calls from time to time for various justifyable reasons.



And....to all the students out there. JW has a lot of knowledge to share and you should respect him for that. I also want to remind you that it will ALWAYS be necessary for you to challange authority. Always ask why and don't lose the ability to think for yourself.
 
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