An elephant is a mouse designed by a committee - some work turning into complete replacement? - NO!

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Melissa2007B

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Dana, thanks for the thoughtful reply. You've got my attention re the draft hood now, and I'll be talking to the guy who installed the water heater, who is a plumber, about that.

As far as the humidifier, that may be true in lower altitude, more humid states, but we're in Denver at around 5400 feet. We have digital clocks that have humidity sensors in them. When they get down to about 42%, we start getting dry skin and static problems, which can harm electronics. We like the humidity around 43-48% all year, but it doesn't stay there without the Aprilaire 360, in the laundry room wall, which has a sensor switch at the other end of the house. We've had it for years and it's pretty good. But we use it all year, as needed, otherwise even in the summer, it gets too dry in here. When it's 99 outside, like it was Sunday, the humidity outdoors can be 7%. This can almost be like parts of Arizona at times. But thanks for the concern. :)
 

Melissa2007B

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Just had the guy over, who did the water heater in 2013. He says $500 to do the drain valve change, remove and reroute the stuff around the mixer, add a cold water shutoff valve in place of that T that now goes up to the mixer, and add a draft hood, though he says that pipe inside the other pipe serves as a draft hood now, because this is a modular home and that's how they do it.

I lit a piece of stick, so that it smoked, and there is a little bit of suction going up into that pipe, sucking the smoke in, though not a whole lot.

He says that the tan stuff condensing down, is from the upper pipe being cold in the winters, and is normal. Doesn't sound normal, from what was said here?

Another thing ringing alarm bells in my head: He has two 5 star reviews on Google ( could be him and his family ) but BBB says he's been in business for 18 years, has an F rating, 4 complaints, 2 of them unanswered, and is "Revoked" and not accredited. Now most people don't know that you don't even have to PAY BBB to be accredited. I have a part time home business with an A+ rating there, and have never paid them a thing. All you have to do is sign up and give them your contact info. OK, in all fairness, if he's in business for 18 years, 4 complaints is not a big deal, and a LOT of business people don't care about BBB - they're doing fine. But...

Now is there a way that I can check his plumbing license? Because he tells me he's a plumber, and it would be nice to verify.
 

Melissa2007B

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Thanks!

MORE alarm bells. No one with his first name and the company name, is licensed. So I looked at the Secretary of State's site and found that they don't even have a business registration with the state - only a trade name. BAD! You cant even open a company bank account, without them wanting to see your SOS business listing! I have a part time home business and have had one listed since 2006!

So their trade names, since 2009, have never had plumbing in the name. Heating & Air, and now Heating & Hot Water. Is a plumber required to install water heaters? Not sure.

But there's a guy with another first name and the company name, listed on a trade name there, and I checked for a plumbing license for HIM and it says CANCELED! Ahhh!

Hafta find someone I can check out, now!...

Oh, I texted him about this and he texted me back that he doesn't have a plumbing license, he has a mechanical. But looking at that DORA licensing, there appears to be no such thing. Jeez.
 
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hj

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A "draft diverter" is just that. There is a baffle in it which prevents down drafts from affecting the burner, which one pipe inside another does NOT do.
 

MKS

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Just an opinion. Under no circumstances would I have the person who did this to you in 2013 back. Keep searching for a well regarded plumber. Not easy I know but worth it in the long run.
 

Melissa2007B

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A "draft diverter" is just that. There is a baffle in it which prevents down drafts from affecting the burner, which one pipe inside another does NOT do.

Thanks HJ and MKS!

Agreed MKS. I spoke with my partner and we actually hired this guy in 2013, after being told by two others water heater estimators, that they wouldn't do a new water heater for us, because this is a modular home. I guess we were desperate for someone who would do it, at the time.

NOW the challenge is finding someone we can AFFORD. The expansion tank sounds like it can wait, but this draft hood is concerning, now that you folks have explained it.
 

Dana

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Dana, thanks for the thoughtful reply. You've got my attention re the draft hood now, and I'll be talking to the guy who installed the water heater, who is a plumber, about that.

As far as the humidifier, that may be true in lower altitude, more humid states, but we're in Denver at around 5400 feet. We have digital clocks that have humidity sensors in them. When they get down to about 42%, we start getting dry skin and static problems, which can harm electronics. We like the humidity around 43-48% all year, but it doesn't stay there without the Aprilaire 360, in the laundry room wall, which has a sensor switch at the other end of the house. We've had it for years and it's pretty good. But we use it all year, as needed, otherwise even in the summer, it gets too dry in here. When it's 99 outside, like it was Sunday, the humidity outdoors can be 7%. This can almost be like parts of Arizona at times. But thanks for the concern. :)


Somehow I hear that argument a lot from people in CO, but since sealing the place up and putting the ventilation system under dehumidistat control works fine for folks in Santa Fe or Jackson Hole, it surely works in Denver.

First, the "relative" of "relative humidity" is the temperature. The absolute humidity can be expressed either in dew point temperature (the temperature at which fog will form if you lower the temperature of the volume of air) or wet-bulb temperature (which is easier to measure directly.) The dew point of 7%RH 99F air is about 25F, which is also a pretty common wintertime outdoor dew point in Denver. The the outdoor TEMPERATURES in Denver in winter are colder, even if the outdoor dew point temps are pretty similar year-round.

The relative humidity of 25F dew point air at a temperature of 35F is 65% RH. Same air, same humidity, different temperature.

The relative humidity of 25F dew point air at a temperature of 75F (a typical summertime indoor temperature) is 15%, still drier than the optimum human healthy & comfortable zone. At 70F it's 18% RH, still too dry.

Over-ventilating with 25F dew point air will over-dry the indoors. But that doesn't mean you need a humidifier- it just means you need to lower the infiltration/ventilation rate:

Human activities such as breathing / bathing /cooking adds substantial moisture to the indoor air, and as long as that humidity isn't being purged faster than it's being introduced by the activities of the occupants, the indoor RH will rise. In Denver the outdoor air is dry enough that the indoor humidity can be controlled year-round by adjusting the ventilation rate, since the outdoor dew points are only rarely above the human-healthy range- higher ventilation rates always lower the indoor RH, lower ventilation rates always raise it. (That isn't true in the gulf-coast states, where summertime outdoor dew points soar, and mechanical dehumidification is necessary.)

The summertime outdoor dew point is irrelevant to the problem. The indoor dew point relative to the wintertime outdoor temperature is the problem.

Setting the humidity to 50% RH @ 75F in summer isn't a problem. Setting it to 40% or higher @ 70F in winter becomes an issue. Moisture only collects in the sheathing when the temperature at the sheathing is below the dew point of the conditioned space air. The dew point of 40%RH/70F air is 45F. The January/February mean outdoor temperature (and thus the sheathing temperature) in Denver is about 35F, fully 10F colder than the dew point of 40%RH/70F air. The moisture in the insulation's entrained air accumulates in the sheathing when that happens. If enough accumululates to support mold, in spring when the temperatures rise and the moisture is release you get mold growing inside the walls.

The dew point of 50%RH/75F air is 55F. The mean outdoor temperature in Denver in summer is north of 70F, so if there is remaining residual moisture in the wall cavities the vapor pressure is in the other direction, drying toward the interior.
 

Dana

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Just had the guy over, who did the water heater in 2013. He says $500 to do the drain valve change, remove and reroute the stuff around the mixer, add a cold water shutoff valve in place of that T that now goes up to the mixer, and add a draft hood, though he says that pipe inside the other pipe serves as a draft hood now, because this is a modular home and that's how they do it.

I lit a piece of stick, so that it smoked, and there is a little bit of suction going up into that pipe, sucking the smoke in, though not a whole lot.

He says that the tan stuff condensing down, is from the upper pipe being cold in the winters, and is normal. Doesn't sound normal, from what was said here?

You realize by now those assertions are complete BS, right?

There is no way that a pipe inside pipe will provide the same function as a draft hood. The draft hood limits the stack height/stack-effect to being only as tall as the water heater, so that the draw delivers the correct amount of combustion air, interrupting the total height of the stack. The draft hood keeps any backdrafts from wind well above the burner location. A draft hood introduces room air into the gases going into the cold upper pipe, which lowers the dew point temperature of the mixture, preventing copious stack condensation that makes the (not-so) "normal" tan crud running down the stack.

A pipe within a pipe does none of those things, all of which are primary functions of a draft hood.

Maybe they do this as matter of course for modular homes (?)- if so it's bad practice! I've never seen it done that way (except in your pictures), but I can't claim to have seen more than a couple gas water heaters in modular homes. But there is no reason that I can think of why it would be installed that way, and plenty of reasons why it should never be installed that way.

Most modular home water heaters I've seen (again, not a large number) have been electric.

Of course there will always be some suction on the vent stack when the tank is warm. The hot water is heating up the air in the heat exchanger to temps well above the outdoor temperature even in summer, which makes the air lighter and more buoyant. When the burner is firing it's even more buoyant, with even higher flows. With any amount of flow up the stack it would draw air into those small gaps unless wind currents depressurized the house enough to make it flow backward. And then most of the reverse flow would be out the bottom, at burner level.
 

Melissa2007B

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I realize it all, now, Dana, and thanks. As I said above, after checking out this guy, I would not hire him for anything. I'm looking for a west Denver area plumber to install the draft hood, and do the other minor work, whom we can AFFORD. NOT EASY.
 

Melissa2007B

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Dana, thanks for your detailed thoughts about the humidifier. Don't have the time to get into that in detail - just to say that we're both allergic to molds and if we had gotten condensing moisture from using it, in the walls etc., we would have had symptoms, but we have not, in all these years ( since 2004 ). I get itchy skin - like mosquito bites and hives from it, and sneezing ( used to be horrible, in south Florida! ), and have not. Also keep in mind that the Aprilaire 360 is not an in-duct humidifier, but goes through the wall between the laundry room where the water heater is, and blows into the living room area. And its design is such that it doesn't form molds on the water panel either. And we make sure to keep it set below what would cause condensing moisture. Thanks!
 

MACPLUMB

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The problem with trying to get a old draft hood is that they are made to fit certain models, and are tested and rated for that certain water heater, even though they may all look the same they are not
 

Dana

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The problem with trying to get a old draft hood is that they are made to fit certain models, and are tested and rated for that certain water heater, even though they may all look the same they are not

With the model number of the water heater it's possible to dig up the part number for the draft hood that was designed for it. In most cases it can be order online for under $25 shipping included. (eg: This may or may not be the correct draft hood for Melissa's water heater. There are others.)

Just about any generic draft hood of the right diameter for the vent stack would be a huge improvement over the way it's currently installed, even if less than perfect.
 

Melissa2007B

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Thanks Dana, will keep that in mind, as soon as I can find an affordable LICENSED verifiable plumber. Anyone have any ideas on how?
 

WorthFlorida

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Hi Melissa. When someone tells you that the way it was done back when doesn't mean it's legal or safe now or back then, but how did it past inspection? Good searching on your part. In your area an expansion tank for new water heater replacement and installations is probably required. Having repair work done would not require it.

To find a good plumber, call or stop buy a plumbing supply store where trades go to. Ask the person behind the counter for a recommendation or two. They usually know who the jerks are and those whom are licensed and dependable. Or you can park yourself outside the store and write down names of plumbers from the signing on their trucks and then do some searching. The state contractors or business license number maybe written on the truck.

Keep in mind that good and honest tradesmen will want to bring things up to code for safe, clean and trouble free installation. Part of it is because of liability. If he fixes a leak or replaces a part and it is obvious that the venting is 100% wrong, he may be liable that he did not inform the homeowner. Should one day you get carbon monoxide poisoning (the lawyers will be lined up) he can be liable. A good plumber may write on the work order that a fix was refused and would want the customer's signature.
 

Melissa2007B

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Hi Melissa. When someone tells you that the way it was done back when doesn't mean it's legal or safe now or back then, but how did it past inspection?

The builder committed fraud, and we didn't find out until later. He was supposed to finish the house 6 months after we obtained the construction loan. Instead, he didn't even start it until 10 months after. We kept asking what was going on, and he said that the city was holding up the permits. So we finally went and walked into the building department and asked what was going on. They said that he told them that he was the OWNER, which ( we didn't know at the time ) let him do his own plumbing and electrical, AND that he was trying to get around codes by getting engineering letters saying it was ok, and because of that, they weren't giving him permits. When they found out that we were the owners, they started getting it going.

BUT ALSO, in 2004, they didn't even require a lot of inspections on what were called UBC Modulars at the time ( now known as IRC ). So this A-hole builder actually left the frame on the house, adding steel weight to the bottom, AND left out supports between one of the piers at one end of the crawl space, and the frame, eventually leading to about 1-1/4 inch of sagging at that point. We had to pay $7000 for an engineer to come in, last year, and specify a helical support to replace that pier, and for a crew to drill down into bedrock and install it. And the last words that this A-hole builder ever said to me, was that "everything was in his wife's name", so not to try to sue him.

Good searching on your part. In your area an expansion tank for new water heater replacement and installations is probably required. Having repair work done would not require it.

Except that we got this liar and fraud, in 2013. I cant believe how much of this goes on, but I've learned a heck of a lot from the house building, and this water heater experience.

To find a good plumber, call or stop buy a plumbing supply store where trades go to. Ask the person behind the counter for a recommendation or two. They usually know who the jerks are and those whom are licensed and dependable. Or you can park yourself outside the store and write down names of plumbers from the signing on their trucks and then do some searching. The state contractors or business license number maybe written on the truck.

Well I googled: plumbers near me, and can see where they all are, but the problem I'm having is that the licensed ones want $300 an hour PLUS about $85 for a bid. Denver is a boom town now, because of legalized pot and tons of refugees fleeing the apparently planned and executed developing collapse of California. So it's hard to even find people to do work like lawn and handyman work anymore. We now have 3 million people in the Denver area, when we had 2 million a few years ago.

The only good news is that the value of our house is going up, but service people like waiters in restaurants, cant even afford rents anymore, and are living with family, if they can, or doubling and tripling up, with roomates.

Keep in mind that good and honest tradesmen will want to bring things up to code for safe, clean and trouble free installation. Part of it is because of liability. If he fixes a leak or replaces a part and it is obvious that the venting is 100% wrong, he may be liable that he did not inform the homeowner. Should one day you get carbon monoxide poisoning (the lawyers will be lined up) he can be liable. A good plumber may write on the work order that a fix was refused and would want the customer's signature.

Understand. And I'm glad that we have, not only a CO detector, in the hall outside the laundry room ( furnace & water heater ), but we have CO2 meters in both bedrooms.
 
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Melissa2007B

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Hey, I found the receipt from 2013. I feel like an idiot. This guy's company is [Name] Heating & Air, and we bought a water heater from him, because 2 plumbers turned us down because this is a modular house. <SIGH> But his invoice doesn't say "plumber" and I'm not sure that a plumber is required here, to install a water heater?

Anyway, it's a RHNGQ131303279, according to his invoice. I don't see any reference on the web, for the proper draft hood for that one.

But I did find this decent little video:

 

Melissa2007B

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New info! I found a good local plumbing company with almost 400 good reviews on Google, which is EXTREMELY rare. Their tech came over and did a free estimate and gave me a bid of $913 for all the work, which included replacing the plastic drain faucet with a brass drain faucet, replacing that T that was going to the mixer with a cold water shut off valve for the water heater, removing the mixer, and a draft hood and expansion tank.

So the actual plumber came over to do the work today, and looked at the water heater and said that there's a reason that there was no draft hood. It turns out that this is a mobile/modular home water heater, which is smaller, to fit the cabinet space and has less BTU's, and it has a intake vent at the bottom of it. Ahah!

He also said an expansion tank is not a necessity, and redid our bid for the rest of the work, down to $360 now. He's out there doing it as I type this.

Interesting.

Glad I didn't try to replace that plastic drain valve myself. It broke off and he knew how to get it out and get it done.
 
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