Air in water pipes

[MattS87]

Hello all,

I'm an electrician by trade, but have read this forum for plumbing tips multiple times. I have a well system that I recently had to replace the pressure tank on due to a hole in it. Now, every few days i get air in my pipes. I have emptied the tank, checked the bladder air pressure, purged air/water through every faucet and checked around for leaks to no avail. This afternoon i turned off my pump and closed the ball valve on the outlet of my tank and let it be for about 4 hours but the pressure did not drop so my theory of a hole in the inlet piping isn't adding up.

Some facts I can give you are; Well is about 260' deep (not sure on water level but my neighbor just had a well dug at about the same depth), pressure tank is a 82 gallon tank that feeds my softener, then the rest of the house. There is not a check valve that I can see inside the house. System runs aon a 40/60 pressure switch, which I also replaced when i did the tank. Any help would be appreciated

 

[LLigetfa]

Was the old tank also a bladder or diaphragm type? If not, did you remove the airmaker?

There could be multiple check valves in series inside the well. They would mask a leak and can introduce air.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[MattS87]

Was the old tank also a bladder or diaphragm type? If not, did you remove the airmaker?

There could be multiple check valves in series inside the well. They would mask a leak and can introduce air.

The old tank was a galvanized one, i believe just air over water? Not sure what an airmaker looks like but my system goes- main valve (1 1/4") , Tee to a hose bib and the other side reduces to 1", to a Tee with the pressure switch, to a hose barb, then into the brass pipe tee that goes to the tank

 

[LLigetfa]

The old tank was a galvanized one, i believe just air over water? Not sure what an airmaker looks like...

You might not see any part of it unless you pull up some of your down pipe. You might see it with a down hole camera. Most likely you will see a check valve, a snifter and a bleeder. Sometimes they put two bleeders where the top one acts as the snifter.

 

[MattS87]

You might not see any part of it unless you pull up some of your down pipe. You might see it with a down hole camera. Most likely you will see a check valve, a snifter and a bleeder. Sometimes they put two bleeders where the top one acts as the snifter.

Would this be easy to remove or should i get a well specialist?

 

[LLigetfa]

If you have room for another tank, it might be cheaper to just buy a small hydro-pneumatic tank with an AVC to release the air than pay to pull the pump. Either that or an air separator. ISTR that @ditttohead has a line on them.

Pulling 260 feet of pipe might not be an impossible DIY job if it is not steel pipe and depending on how far down the static level is. The pump and pipe is lighter when under water. You don't need to pull out all of the pipe, just the first few feet where the bleeders are likely to be.

 

[Valveman]

If you can find a check valve above ground, remove it. That might keep the bleeder orifice that is about 5' down the well from opening up and drawing air in. Like LL says that check valve could be just below the well head. The bleeder and extra check valve should be removed when you switch from an old air over water tank to a diaphragm style tank.

 

[Reach4]

Matt, look along your incoming piping, perhaps near the pressure tank, for something like this. The Schrader valve may have a cap on it, but it will be a special cap that does not seal.

 

[MattS87]

Thanks for all the input. I am fairly confident there is nothing above ground/in the house, but I will double check. I don't have an inspection camera, but I am going to drop a work light down the casing to see if I can see the valve. Just happy to know its not something major at this point.

 

[Reach4]

As a workaround, you could do something like this: https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-air-injection-iron-filter.74384/#post-547899

Check the posts leading up to that. For yours, you might make the vertical part taller, since the dose of air could be bigger. You should use pressure rated PVC rather than DWV. Some pipe will have "Dual marking for both pressure and drain, waste, vent (DWV) applications". That is OK.

You might find that having the well guy lift your pipes and plug the bleeder/hole is not all that expensive, and certainly easier. I do think there is going to be something above ground for you to find too.

 

[LLigetfa]

I do think there is going to be something above ground for you to find too.

The distance between the snifter and the bleeder determines how much air gets added on each cycle so if the well is a fair distance from where the tank is, it is plausible that the snifter would be in the well. If there is not a lot of air in the lines, then expect that the space between the snifter and bleeder is not great.
The thread @Reach4 linked to was the same thread I recall @ditttohead post in.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-air-injection-iron-filter.74384/#post-551972

 

[LLigetfa]

Do keep in mind that the softener will act as an air accumulator and the air will only move forward to the faucets after all the water in the softener is displaced by air. If the softener regens before that happens, the air should get purged to the drain. If slugs of air move from the bladder tank to the softener during backwash, it can drive some of the beads to the drain if there is not a top basket to catch it.

 

[MattS87]

To update on this, I believe I found the snifter valve that was mentioned. It is about 4-5 feet down the casing, just below the pitless adapter. The old tank had a type of air release valve mounted on it, so the only piece I can see left to remove is the bleeder? Either way, I'll talk to a well guy in the morning since I can't reach down the casing that far and I'm heading out of town for the week.

 

[MattS87]

Do keep in mind that the softener will act as an air accumulator and the air will only move forward to the faucets after all the water in the softener is displaced by air. If the softener regens before that happens, the air should get purged to the drain. If slugs of air move from the bladder tank to the softener during backwash, it can drive some of the beads to the drain if there is not a top basket to catch it.

Every 2-3 days i have been purging the air from the softner to reduce an effects on its operation

 

[Valveman]

The bleeder 5' down the well cannot open unless there is a check valve after it. The check valve holds back the pressure in the pressure tank, lets the bleeder ball drop and it opens up and drains the water.

 

[LLigetfa]

In addition to the bleeder and the check valve, there is also a snifter valve to let air in. Sometimes two bleeders are used where the top one lets air in and the bottom one lets the water out.