Adding indoor storage tank to low-yield well

[Racerboy]

Hello. This is my first post. I have a historically low-yield well and ran out of water last week. Last June, I had the well pump replaced (1 hp/7 gpm) after Hydrofracking. My well is 500’ deep and the pump is set at 480’. The static level when they installed the pump was 60’, but that was right after it was hydrofracked. When I do the non-scientific test of dropping ice cubes into well, it takes between 12-14 sec. to hit water.

I called the pump guy who installed/cracked the well. He had me turn off the well pump for about 24 hr. to see what would happen. The well did recover a bit, but when I turned the well pimp on, it could never reach the cut-out of 60 psi.

With some help from folks over at GarageJournal (GJ) I lowered the pressure to 30/50 and set the pressure tank at 28 psi. We have water, but I am watching the gauge like a hall. I also have a little light that goes on each time the pump turns on just so I can make sure it doesn’t run continuously.

I called the pump guy every day this last week but once I told him that resetting the pressure switch to 30/50 seemed to allow us to shower, do laundry, run dishwasher (we are being extra careful to not do any of these simultaneously), he told me that he f do isn’t think there was an issue with the pump, but that the water table is just too low. he thinks I need a new well.

I started doing some research on my options and came across the Well Manager system. I called them (they are right here in NJ, a couple hours south of me) and they told me that their system was specifically designed to address low-yield well issues. That sounded great, until I was told it would cost about $7000 for the 210g system with all the controls, and another $1500 for a second 210g poly tank (for a family of four).

Folks over at GJ were convinced I could do this much cheaper by building this myself, which is how I wound up here. I did a search and read through a number of threads and was just asking if folks thought that adding a storage tank to my exit system was the right way to go? I’m not dissing the Well Manager system, but if I could some how replicate that at a lower price, that’s something I would definitely consider.

I’m also not 100% against a new well. If that’s what it needs, then that’s what it needs, but my pump guy hasn’t followed up with getting anybody to come out and discuss this. I did call a local well driller, and while he said he could come out and do the drilling for $15/ft, he more or less wanted me to pick the spot for the new well.

If the storage tank makes sense, hopefully some of the experts here can recommend the size of the tank, the pump/float/switch I would need to tie it in to my existing system, etc.

thanks!

 

[Drick]

Having to babysit the well is no fun, but before spending any money I'd want to know two things; What is the recovery rate for your well and what are your neighbor's wells like? It could be that all your neighbors have 300 ft deep wells producing 20 GPM. If that's the case I'd lean toward drilling a new well. (Go to town/ city hall and check if they have records for wells in your area.) If all the wells around you are low producing then the storage tank idea is looking better - assuming that your well can actually produce enough water for your family in 24 hours.

The Well Manager looks interesting, but yeah its expensive for what it does. I think you could get most of the way there by using a float and cycle sensor (https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/cycle-sensor-pump-monitor) to fill your tanks while protecting your pump from dry running. Then using a second pump you could pull water from the tanks for household use.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

assuming that your well can actually produce enough water for your family in 24 hours.

A pump may be fitted with a Dole valve to reduce the flow rate to as low aa 1 GPM. Even at 1 GPM that is as much as 1,440 gallons/day.

 

[VAWellDriller]

To make the decision, you need to find out some good information about the well you have.....important numbers are the actual static water level and the yield or recovery rate. A good pump/well man will have the equipment to measure this....it's not really a DIY project on a well that deep.

Your well now acts just like a approximate 600 gallon storage tank system with the volume it can hold...so a properly sized pump will do everything and more than a 400 gallon well manager system.

Sounds to me like your pump is probably worn out; if it wouldn't make cut-off after the well resting for 24 hours. Are you sure you don't have any leaks?

 

[LLigetfa]

Sounds to me like your pump is probably worn out; if it wouldn't make cut-off after the well resting for 24 hours. Are you sure you don't have any leaks?

I agree. Either the pump cannot lift from the depth or there is a small leak. I question the wisdom of the pump man.

Is there a topside check valve? any additional check valves after the one on the pump can mask a leak.

 

[Reach4]

3-wire pump (with a control box in addition to the pressure switch)? Do you know the make and model?

What is the current in one of the hot wires measured while the pump is approaching cut-off pressure? Use a clamp-around ammeter.

 

[Racerboy]

3-wire pump (with a control box in addition to the pressure switch)? Do you know the make and model?

What is the current in one of the hot wires measured while the pump is approaching cut-off pressure? Use a clamp-around ammeter.

I think my pump is a 2-wire pump. I do not know the make and model. All my receipt says is "2-wire, 1hp/7gpm pump". I know it cost $1945 (last June)

 

[Racerboy]

To make the decision, you need to find out some good information about the well you have.....important numbers are the actual static water level and the yield or recovery rate. A good pump/well man will have the equipment to measure this....it's not really a DIY project on a well that deep.

Your well now acts just like a approximate 600 gallon storage tank system with the volume it can hold...so a properly sized pump will do everything and more than a 400 gallon well manager system.

Sounds to me like your pump is probably worn out; if it wouldn't make cut-off after the well resting for 24 hours. Are you sure you don't have any leaks?

I don't know about any leaks but the pump is only a year old, though I guess if it was overworked in that time it could be worn out. Once I reduced the pressure switch from 40/60 to 30/50, we seemed to be doing ok. I also checked the depth to the water again today using the ice cube drop. The time it now takes is between 6-7 seconds (it was 12-14 sec last week(. We did get two solid days of heavy rain, so I'm assuming that helped.

 

[Reach4]

Expect about 8.2 amps when the water is up. Expect something less when the water is down. This might be interesting to watch. The amps will also drop as the pressure tank water pressure gets higher.

 

[Racerboy]

Hi everyone. Haven’t been here in a little while and thought I’d post an update. We managed to work with our existing low-yield well by just being careful with the simultaneous water use. This worked out fine until around July. Then I ran into same problems as past. The well pump (which is only 2 yr old) could never get the pressure to the 50 PSI cutoff. It would just run and run. I lowered the setting down to 20/40. That seemed to help, but it was still struggling. I started toting water from a neighbor’s house and filling the well. Twice a day I was getting 65 gal of water and putting it in my well. That was getting old.

I finally decided to get a new well. It’s about 100 feet away from my old well. My hope was that they would hit good water and I would be able to close the original well, but it doesn’t look like that’s going to happen. They are down 450’ right now, but are only seeing about 1.0 GPH (estimate). They are coming back on Monday to go another 150’. It basically looks like I am going to have two low-yield wells. I’d they don’t hit good water on Monday, what do you think my best option is? I can’t afford to pick another spot. I’m already $23,000 in the hole (no pun intended) for the cost of the excavating and the new well. And haven’t even bought piping, wiring or a pump yet. The driller said they don’t generally ‘connect’ two wells (contamination?) but couldn’t I have both wells come into the house? It would still improve what I have now. I’m at a bit of a loss here. Appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

Maybe consider a 5 gpm 1 HP pump for the new well.
Also a pump protector such as https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/cycle-sensor-pump-monitor

Maybe mount the pumps 10 ft off of the bottom instead of 20 ft.

 

[LLigetfa]

My well is 500’ deep and the pump is set at 480’.

Can you provide more detail on the pump brand and model? Based on the table reach4 provided, a 1HP, 7GPM pump has a 49 PSI shut-off at a depth of 300 feet, so your pump man should not have spec'd that pump at a depth of 480 feet.

 

[Racerboy]

Can you provide more detail on the pump brand and model? Based on the table reach4 provided, a 1HP, 7GPM pump has a 49 PSI shut-off at a depth of 300 feet, so your pump man should not have spec'd that pump at a depth of 480 feet.

I don't know the make/model of the pump. Looking at the chart, wouldn't the shut off PSI be 97 at 300 feet? Maybe I'm reading chart incorrectly. No matter what, it seems like there should be a larger pump down at 480 ft.

I believe the driller is going back tomorrow with an additional 150 feet of drill pipe. Maybe I'll get lucky. No matter what, I think I am going to install a CSV, as others have recommended.

 

[LLigetfa]

Looking at the chart, wouldn't the shut off PSI be 97 at 300 feet? Maybe I'm reading chart incorrectly.

I was reading it wrong. None the less, it still deadheads well below 50 PSI at the depth it is set at.

 

[Reach4]

I don't know the make/model of the pump. Looking at the chart, wouldn't the shut off PSI be 97 at 300 feet? Maybe I'm reading chart incorrectly. No matter what, it seems like there should be a larger pump down at 480 ft.

I believe the driller is going back tomorrow with an additional 150 feet of drill pipe. Maybe I'll get lucky. No matter what, I think I am going to install a CSV, as others have recommended.

Larger? I think a 5 gpm pump would probably be a better match. It has more stages, so it will be longer. Same diameter.

A 5 gpm pump will cost more than a 7 gpm pump. 5 gpm will satisfy most household needs except that is not enough flow to backwash many backwashing filters. It is enough to backwash softeners. You could use a 7 gpm pump with higher hp. That will be harder to run with a generator, and will need bigger wire.

Note that the 5 gpm pump could generate higher pressure for a given HP. You can find tables and pump curves for such pumps.

Remember when looking at pump tables, the distance is the distance down to the water surface, which is often higher than the pump intake... until it is not.

 

[Racerboy]

Larger? I think a 5 gpm pump would probably be a better match. It has more stages, so it will be longer. Same diameter.

A 5 gpm pump will cost more than a 7 gpm pump. 5 gpm will satisfy most household needs except that is not enough flow to backwash many backwashing filters. It is enough to backwash softeners. You could use a 7 gpm pump with higher hp. That will be harder to run with a generator, and will need bigger wire.

Note that the 5 gpm pump could generate higher pressure for a given HP. You can find tables and pump curves for such pumps.

Remember when looking at pump tables, the distance is the distance down to the water surface, which is often higher than the pump intake... until it is not.

Ok. Thanks. The neighbor who I was getting water from (his well is also 500’ deep, but he lives 250’ higher up the mountain from me) told me that when he had his well drilled (20 yr ago) it was only producing 1.5-2 gpm, so he had it hydrofracked before setting the pump. He has never had a problem with water. Should I consider doing this on my new well?

Also, are there any diagrams to show me how to have two separate wells come into the house?

 

[Racerboy]

Down 550 feet and no improvement. Ugh. Maybe 1.0 gpm.

 

[Valveman]

Even though they don't recover all the way, you still have lots of stored water in those wells. You just need pumps that can still build more than 60 PSI for a 40/60 switch from a depth of 550' deep. A Cycle Sensor on each pump can then do the watching for you 24/7 to protect the pumps. Set one at 40/6o and the other at 30/50 and tee the lines together anywhere after the pressure tanks.

 

[Racerboy]

Even though they don't recover all the way, you still have lots of stored water in those wells. You just need pumps that can still build more than 60 PSI for a 40/60 switch from a depth of 550' deep. A Cycle Sensor on each pump can then do the watching for you 24/7 to protect the pumps. Set one at 40/6o and the other at 30/50 and tee the lines together anywhere after the pressure tanks.

Thanks Cary. They finished drilling the second well (700 ft deep) and they also hydro-fracked it last Monday. There was about a 10-day delay between the drilling and the fracking, but when they fracked, they said the static level was at 70 ft, but I don’t know how long it took. They were supposed to come today to re-check the static level and set the pump. The driller mentioned something about setting it relatively high if I had a hood static level. He said that would save me some money. I don’t care about that, I’m already $30k into this well. Wouldn’t I want the pump set way down to take advantage of all that stored water? Isn’t that the point of drilling deeper?

I also plan on running both wells. What kind of relay/timer do I use to alternate between the two, and how should I stagger it? Should each well get triggered every other pump cycle? Or could I stage it by every other day? I don’t know the exact gpm yield rate of the new well yet. Hopefully find that out when they set the pump?

How powerful of a pump do I need? I don’t want to save a couple of hundred dollars only to never be sure I won’t have water problems again.

It’s pouring here today (remnants of Hurricane Fiona, I think), so I probably won’t be getting my well pump installed until Monday.

Thanks!

 

[Drick]

The driller mentioned something about setting it relatively high if I had a hood static level. He said that would save me some money. I don’t care about that, I’m already $30k into this well. Wouldn’t I want the pump set way down to take advantage of all that stored water? Isn’t that the point of drilling deeper?

I also plan on running both wells. What kind of relay/timer do I use to alternate between the two, and how should I stagger it? Should each well get triggered every other pump cycle? Or could I stage it by every other day? I don’t know the exact gpm yield rate of the new well yet. Hopefully find that out when they set the pump?

How powerful of a pump do I need? I don’t want to save a couple of hundred dollars only to never be sure I won’t have water problems again.

You have no idea how much water the new well can produce or how long the recovery to 70 feet was, so I'd assume worse case and set the new pump 10 - 20 feet off the bottom. The pump needs to be powerful enough to hit the 60psi cutoff when the water level in the well falls where the pump is installed.

You don't want to alternate pumps, you want a primary pump and a backup pump. Your primary pump is the one in your best well. Cary went over this above, but I'll restate it here; What you want to do is install a 60/40 pressure switch and tank on the primary well and a 30/50 pressure switch and tank on your backup well. Next install a cycle sensor on both wells. This will protect the pump in the event the well runs dry by disconnecting power for a period of time. Finally use a T fitting to connect the water lines from each well system together after the pressure tanks and then connect that to the main water line for the house.

With this setup your primary well provides your water until it runs dry and the cycle sensor shuts the pump down. Your water pressure will then fall below 30psi causing the backup well to start providing you with water - albeit at the lower 30/50 pressure. When the primary well's cycle sensor times out the primary pump will restart providing you with 60/40 pressure again.

-rick