6-month-old well suddenly pulling sediment and cloudy water

[Djd5059]

We built a house last year, moved in at the end of August. Our well is 260 feet deep with 60 feet of casing, 30gpm when it was drilled. We run a water softener. Others in our neighborhood have had issues with their water (bacteria, solids, etc.) and have installed whole house filters. It's a widely-spaced neighborhood. Most lots are around 1.5 acres.

Over the weekend, coinciding with a spike in temperatures in February into the 60s, we started seeing some cloudy water. We first noticed this in toilets with some brown sediment settling in the tank and cloudy water in the bowl. It seemed like we went to bed on Saturday with clear water and woke up on Sunday with cloudy water, but we get our drinking water from bottles and/or the fridge filter, so it's likely it was more of a gradual change and we just didn't notice.

I called the company that drilled the well on Monday after talking to our builder over the weekend. The well guy said it was common to get a "shot" of sediment after a thaw but that if the problem persisted, they could come out and clean the well if we wanted.

The father of one of our neighbors installs whole house filtration systems. He's coming over on Monday to test the water (bacteria, solids, the works) and make recommendations.

I'm trying to do some research in advance of the tests and possibly getting into it with the company that drilled the well. I grew up on city water. My wife grew up on well water, but we grew up near Lake Erie, meaning her well was only 50 feet deep or so and was already 25 years old before she was born and never had issues with sediment or bacteria as far as her father can remember. In other words, this is a new situation for both of us, and we want to avoid silly missteps/getting talked into spending a ton of money when it isn't really necessary.

Here are a few lead-off questions:

1. The well is only 6 months old, and it pulled clear water for the first 6 months. 60 feet of casing is well below the frost line, so is "it's common to get a shot of sediment after a thaw" a sensible answer? It doesn't make a lot of sense to us, but I know a lot less about wells than the guy who works for the well company.

2. What might the well company do to "clean" it? How to you clean a 260-foot hole in the ground, 200 feet of which doesn't have a casing around it? Is there anything to be gained from cleaning the well, especially if we are seeing issues so soon? Would it just be a temporary solution, or is there some long-term benefit to cleaning it after an initial break-in period? Should we be demanding that the company fix this and fix it for free because the problem is arising so soon, or is this a situation where there are no guarantees for quality because there are too many variables when you drill a hole that deep?

3. Researching whole house water filters is making my head spin. Systems range from $100 to $5,000, and DIYers seem to have systems with a dozen different components, all of which, they claim, are completely necessary and you would be dumb to leave out. Is there a simple solution? Should I just go with what the guy says on Monday if he appears to know what he is talking about and the price is where we want it?

Thanks in advance for any help/advice anyone can offer!

 

[Valveman]

I don't see how a thaw could have anything to do with cloudy water. But the well is only 6 months old. It may just need to be developed further. Usually running a big pipe from the well (or multiple faucets) and pumping it hard for several hours will clean up the well. Sometimes it takes days or weeks, but not normally. And sometimes you have to run the well for an hour, shut it off for and hour, and repeat the process until the well cleans up.

I will move this to the softener forum where there are some guys who can help you with filters and such.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Djd5059]

Thanks! Just talked to the guy with the drilling company. He backed off on "cleaning," which I'm thinking now was just something he said to appease me on the first call for whatever reason. (I don't recall being a jerk about it or anything.)

He did stick by the time of year explanation - we are at the bottom of a hill and it is rainy, therefore crap rolls downhill. Only solution he offered was raising the level of the pump, but only if sediment is gritty, which it isn't. The answer, then, would seem to lie in proper filtration and not in "fixing" the well.

 

[Valveman]

Still think a little pumping will clean it up.

 

[Reach4]

I am not a pro.

It seems to me that if the well is affected by crap rolling downhill, the well should have been cased to below where rolling crap can enter. So if his explanation is not BS, I think the install was defective.

More likely, it seems to me, that at least some of the uncased stuff was not rock. The material washes into the bore. Cleaning could make sense if the amount of stuff coming in is limited, and cleaning with high-volume (175 to 275 cfm probably) air blowing the material out like a geyser. If the crap continues, it seems to me that some liner might be possible.

If it is sand, maybe it is something being washed off of the bore by the pump. The pump probably should have had a flow inducer, or even a Lakos Sub-K. http://www.lakos.com/groundwater.htm See the diagram of what they offer.

It seems to me that it may be more of a well problem than a water treatment problem. I am not a pro. I have no relevant experience.

From a treatment point of view, put some water with the junk into a jar, and shake. Note how long it takes to settle.

EDIT: Valveman, who has a lot of well experience including sand, thinks that pumping ("developing the well") has a good chance to clean this up. Go that route first.

Also, on the bacterial test, don't be too worried about coliform at this point if the well has not been sanitized since the pump was installed.

 

[Djd5059]

It's definitely silt. There's a thin layer at the bottom of our toilet tanks, and it is silky between fingers, not gritty or sticky.

Whatever the issue is seems to have cleared up again. I filled the washtub in our laundry room halfway, and the water was clear. Ditto for the water flowing into the toilet tanks and the 3" of water I just put in the upstairs tub, which was yellow last night. Seems like we had two distinct events in the past few days, one Saturday night into Sunday morning and one during the day yesterday (Wednesday), what the guy from the well company is calling "shots" of sediment to the system caused by wet, warm weather after a long freeze. It doesn't make sense to me intuitively, but so far that explanation is lining up with what I'm seeing.

I'll be interested to see the results of the water testing next week. I'd lay money (probably a good chunk of it, unfortunately) on us being the proud owners of a new whole-house filtration system in the near future. We're expecting kiddo #2 soon, and I think a filter will make us both feel better given what we've seen this week.

 

[Bannerman]

Perhaps a Lakos Twist II clean or Atlas Filti Hydra filter on the main line post pressure tank would provide a low cost and effective method to eliminate further sediment.
Both shown here: https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/157

You didn't indicate your well's pumping or lab test results. As the well is only six months old, I would expect a pumping test was performed to determine the well's delivery and recovery rate, and a comprehensive lab test performed to ensure the water's safety and conditions.

As the owner of a private well, you are now your own municipality and so are responsible for the water's safety and appropriate treatment. Periodic comprehensive lab testing is highly recommended as unlike usual onsite testing, very expensive and accurate equipment will be utilized. While there are various labs, National Labs is commonly recommended on this forum:
http://www.ntllabs.com/Merchant2/me...NTL&Product_Code=9003&Category_Code=Homeowner

 

[Djd5059]

Thanks for the tips, Bannerman. The drillers indicated 30gpm when they put in the well for a flow rate. I believe that is estimated. Recovery rate was not indicated. No, comprehensive testing was not done when the well was put in. We're in central Pennsylvania, and while we are only one valley over from the town of State College and Penn State University, which have most of the amenities of much larger towns because of the school, we are in a rather solitary housing development surrounded by state-subsidized farmland. We went with a private builder rather than a corporate one because we wanted the acreage rather than a postage stamp in a preplanned community, but to say that our contractor was old school is a bit of an understatement. The final product is very nice, but there are a few things here and there that were just "done the way they've always been done." In other words, as there is no local building code concerning well water testing and reporting standards apparently don't require more than the basics, that information wasn't collected.

Pennsylvania at least has strict rules concerning tests for bacteria. The gentleman coming to test our water on Monday will test for the various solids on site, I'm sure, but a certified lab will test for bacteria. Also, Penn State offers comprehensive water testing through their labs for $75 plus the cost of the collection kit, and we plan to take advantage of that regularly.

With the filters you suggested, are there specific features that make those a better choice than others?

 

[ditttohead]

The Hydra would be a good start. A large pleated filter is very common on wells with intermittent sediment loading. These filters typically do not need regular maintenance like the smaller "Big Blue" filters need and they have almost no flow loss due to their larger size. If the problem is excessive a simple backwashing filter can also be considered. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/160-161
NTL Labs does an amazing job for about $200. Well worth the cost.

We would really like to see a full water report before making any recommendations so that we are not leading you astray or missing something very important.. ie: arsenic, fluoride, iron, etc.

 

[Djd5059]

I'll update the thread next week when I have the info from the testing. Thanks to everyone for all of the advice.

 

[Djd5059]

Just had a gentleman here to test our water. He tested for calcium and iron on site but did not take a sample for bacterial testing. His rationale was that our turbidity is so high, any results would be skewed. He recommended we install a filter to deal with the turbidity and then test for bacteria.

He was an older guy who seemed very set in his ways (are you seeing a trend yet for this area?) and who relied a bit on old school sales tactics. At one point he pulled out a pair of nail clippers on a chain, held it over a glass of water from our sink, and told me that if the clippers started spinning counter-clockwise, it meant we had bad water. Surprise, surprise—the clippers spun counter-clockwise. He invited me to try, and when the clippers didn't spin, he told me my electricity must not be good, whatever that means. He seemed like a good guy, just a bit stuck in the past.

In any case, he tested the water at our kitchen sink. 9 grains of calcium and something under 0.5 for iron. The water just barely turned pink for iron, only noticeable if you looked down through the tube or held it in front of a white piece of paper. Definitely not as pink as the 0.5 sample he had in his kit for comparison, but he said it was an issue. He also insisted our softener wasn't working even after testing water pulled straight from the well and found 65 grains. The softener, by the way, wasn't anywhere near its highest setting. It is now. I know 9 grains can still cause problems, but it's a heck of a lot better than 65, especially with the softener running well below 100% capacity, right? Here's the softener we have, by the way: Lancaster X-Factor Gold Line LER. He wasn't impressed and said he would have put in something twice the size.

So onto his recommendation: He wants to install a WaterPro EAF-20. I'd include a link, but I can't find much about the company online (There are a lot of companies named WaterPro that muddy the search, and this specific company doesn't seem to have much of a web presence.) They're out of Warren, OH. I'm including pictures of the spec sheet he left behind. Installed cost for the system is about $1500. Seems to be a single stage physical filter that uses Filter Ag materials.

Two additional notes: He said the yellow bag Diamond Crystal salt we buy at Lowe's is inferior to the yellow bag stuff they sell at ALDI. Any merit to this? Also, he said there's nothing we can do to help the softener pull out that <0.5 iron, that it was just not as good of a unit as the one he would install (for an additional $2,o00). I was under the impression you could put something in your brine tank with the salt to help your softener deal with iron in small quantities. Am I misinformed?

I'm going to call around and get someone else out for a second opinion for sure, but I'd value any input here as well. Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

Just had a gentleman here to test our water. He tested for calcium and iron on site but did not take a sample for bacterial testing. His rationale was that our turbidity is so high, any results would be skewed. He recommended we install a filter to deal with the turbidity and then test for bacteria.

My thinking is more that a bacterial sample would be not worthwhile if you have never sanitized your system.

He was an older guy who seemed very set in his ways (are you seeing a trend yet for this area?) and who relied a bit on old school sales tactics. At one point he pulled out a pair of nail clippers on a chain, held it over a glass of water from our sink, and told me that if the clippers started spinning counter-clockwise, it meant we had bad water. Surprise, surprise—the clippers spun counter-clockwise. He invited me to try, and when the clippers didn't spin, he told me my electricity must not be good, whatever that means. He seemed like a good guy, just a bit stuck in the past.

That nail clipper thing is weird. Until that, I thought that he might have some merit.

Two additional notes: He said the yellow bag Diamond Crystal salt we buy at Lowe's is inferior to the yellow bag stuff they sell at ALDI. Any merit to this? Also, he said there's nothing we can do to help the softener pull out that <0.5 iron, that it was just not as good of a unit as the one he would install (for an additional $2,o00). I was under the impression you could put something in your brine tank with the salt to help your softener deal with iron in small quantities.

Diamond Crystal salt should be at least as good as the Aldi salt. But the salt that would help more is one of the iron-treating salts, which sell at a premium. https://www.diamondcrystalsalt.com/water-softener-salt green bag is the Diamond brand version. There are also phosphoric acid injectors with wicks that measure solution into the brine tank: look at the Res-Up or ResCare feeders. Expect to do some cleaning in the future without an iron filter.


For now, I would set your softener to maybe 14 grains to compensate for iron and to add some margin.

Look at old posts using the search box above. Look older posts that contain the term "iron out".

 

[Djd5059]

Just remembered a second bit from the tester's visit that I wanted to relate: When testing for calcium, his method was to collect a sample in a test tube and add a bit of powder from a small silver packet. While doing this, he explained that if the water turned red, there was a problem. If it turned blue, it was fine. To get a measurement of the severity of the issue, he then added drops of another solution, this one clear, from another bottle. When the water turned blue, the number of drop he added would indicate the number of grains of calcium in the sample. Grains per what? I have no idea. He didn't explain the measurement, nor did he draw a measured amount of water into the tube. It was probably 75% full.

When he tested the water from the kitchen faucet, he drew the water, added the powder to produce a color, and then added the drops. It took 9 drops for the kitchen water to turn blue. When he tested the water drawn directly from the well, he put in 5 drops of the clear solution before adding the powder, half-explaining as he did so that we knew it was going to take at least that many if the softener was doing anything. He then proceeded to add drops 5 at a time, at first shaking the tube after each 5 drops but later skipping that part, until he got to 65 and the water had turned completely blue. I also noticed that both samples turned the same color red when he added the packet, both the 9 and the 65, no visible difference in severity that I could detect.

This all seems a bit suspect to me. Anyone have insight into how these tests are usually performed? I have a rep from a larger company coming by soon to run more comprehensive tests. Once I have the results, I'll share them and hopefully get some ideas from everyone about the type of system I could build myself vs. what is suggested by the two testers.

 

[Djd5059]

Second tester has come and gone. He found 2 grains per gallon hardness at the kitchen sink 15 grains per gallon and 0 iron drawing straight from the well. Again, no bacteria test until after we get the turbidity under control. He's recommending a cartridge filter and a UV light, around $900 installed for the whole system with the rationale that UV is insurance. We might not have bacteria if we tested today, but who knows what will happen tomorrow. He's agreeable to doing the cartridge filter, testing for bacteria after the turbidity is under control, and then offering the UV filter at the package discount price at that point if we want it even though we'd be doing them separately.

He's ballparking annual servicing to replace the bulb, clean the glass tube, and replace the filter cartridge at $150 or so, thought changing the filter cartridge might need to happen more frequently depending on how much crap comes in. I'm assuming I'll be able to handle changing the cartridge on my own if needed, but we'll see. For the unresolved hardness, he recommends we manually regen the tank regularly and buy a test kit to see how much our levels fluctuate. Like the first guy, he wasn't impressed with the system we have, in large part because he knows the shop that installed it won't service it, and he left literature behind for one of his systems in case we want to make a change. It's in the $1400 range.

And he got a kick out of the previous tester's "water witchery," as he called it. Though he does claim to have witnessed good results from divining rods.

 

[ditttohead]

Sounds like he was using a Hach 5B reagent type of test, this is the industry standard test and it sounds like it was accurate. Why are they getting 15 and 65 for the well hardness? I see fluctuations in well water regularly but by a factor of 5 in the same day or two, this is not typical.

Anybody who hangs nail clippers over a glass of water and claims your electricity is not good as a method of testing water... escort them to the door and ask them to not remember your address....

 

[Djd5059]

We are now the proud owners of a Big Blue cartridge filter - 4.5" x 10" with a 5 micron filter. We know there are other, possibly better solutions, but this is what the professional in front of use sells and recommends. We have a new baby coming in the next week or two, so getting something done quickly was the priority. Trouble is, it didn't solve the problem. The water is still cloudy. I left some out in a glass bowl overnight, and it was just as cloudy this morning. When I poured it out, the last few drops in the bowl were cloudier and noticeably brown, but that was the extent of the settling after close to 12 hours.

Talking to our filter guy, he said we are dealing with colloidal clay. The recommended system is multi-stage with an aluminum coagulant, chlorine, and carbon. Cost is about $4000. I asked him as many questions as I could think about alternatives, but nothing seems attractive (a membrane filter that might be a little cheaper but has higher upkeep costs, reverse osmosis at individual fixtures which would add up quick and not help with bathwater, etc.)

I'm going to ask around in the neighborhood to see if anyone else has this issue, but it seems like the area is highly variable. One neighbor had a sulfur issue. Others have solved their problems with a backwashing filter and UV. Others don't report any issues at all (or their builder put a nice system in from the start and they don't know what they have, I suppose).

Any input/ideas? We know from fighting with the lawn/the mess the builders left behind that our soil is very clayey, so I'm not trying to call BS on this or anything. Just want to make sure we aren't missing anything.

 

[Reach4]

We are now the proud owners of a Big Blue cartridge filter - 4.5" x 10" with a 5 micron filter.

If there is room, you could replace the sump (the blue part) with a 20 inch housing. That makes the filters last twice as long.

There are also finer cartridges. You could experiment. Finer will clog more. I have a Pentek-DGD-2501 filter currently for no apparent reason. Since I have a backwashing iron+H2S filter for my front end, there is little for the cartridges to collect. I ordered the cartridge filter housings before deciding to get the backwashing filter, so there is little for my filters to collect.

Anyway, the colloidal clay is a cosmetic problem and not a health problem.

 

[Djd5059]

I think we're going to try a 1 micron filter and see if that improves things/see how long it lasts without clogging. If we can get them for a reasonable price, we could replace the filter once a week for ten years before we hit the $4k quoted for the alum-chlorine-carbon system. (That's worst case, at least I hope.) And if we switch to a 20" housing, it would be even a little less for the filters in terms of total cost + less work.

Biggest question is whether the turbidity (which will still be there at the sub-micron level even if the 1 micron filter helps us out with the cosmetic issue) will necessitate a UV filter to deal with any bacteria hitching a ride on the particles that make it through. We won't know that until we get the water tested, not that a single bacteria test is going to answer that question definitively anyway.

 

[Reach4]

One micron cartridges like DGD-2501 are cheap. 0.25 micron are more expensive. There may be better 1 micron cartridges. Also get a pressure gauge. A garden hose thread gauge is cheap. You could look at the pressure drop when using water, and use that as a gauge to tell when it is getting to be time for a new element.

An alternative/addition would be to add a 20 inch housing in series. Then have a finer filter in the second housing.

Also get at least 1 spare O-ring (Pentek 151122) and some NSF-certified silicone grease to lightly coat the 0-ring each time. I have a 5.3 ounce tube of Molykote, which lasts many many years for a homeowner. I use nitrile gloves when I apply, not for safety, but to make hand cleaning easy.

https://www.danco.com/product/0-5-oz-silicone-faucet-grease/ Danco 88693 is a smaller package, and will be available locally.

One disadvantage of the bigger housings is they are heavier if they are full of water. That is not a problem if they are readily accessible, but would be harder to handle at arm's length.

Biggest question is whether the turbidity (which will still be there at the sub-micron level even if the 1 micron filter helps us out with the cosmetic issue) will necessitate a UV filter to deal with any bacteria hitching a ride on the particles that make it through. We won't know that until we get the water tested, not that a single bacteria test is going to answer that question definitively anyway.

I would sanitize my well system and then wait before attempting a bacterial test. Testing via your county is not normally good for tests for water treatment system design (hardness, iron , Mn, pH, etc) it is usually good for bacterial testing.

If you care about the coliform test results, care needs to be taken in sampling. http://www.ugra.org/pdfs/SamplingHandout.pdf is one description of a method to avoid contaminating the sample.

 

[ditttohead]

Check out the Atlas Filtri 4.5" x 20" versions, we stock them with a bottom drain integrated (not drilled/tapped), this eliminates the weight issue during filter changes.

You may also want to consider a 2 or 3 stage version, you can stage the sediment filtration for more cost effective filter maintenance and much better performance. you could add a sub micron without worrying about plugging it up constantly.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/198-199