Toilet Gurgles in Apartment Complex

[scoobydo]

This is a little long, but PLEASE, I need some advice.

So we live in a 3 story apartment complex.
Ever since we moved in, one of our bathroom toilets periodically gurgles.
When it does, the water level goes down. During this time, if you try to flush the toilet, the water just backs up in the bowl.
It will eventually slowly go down or sometimes flush very suddenly.
About 2 months ago our toilet started spewing sewage into our bathroom.
I also had sewage coming out of the sink and bathtub!!
I finally was able to stop it by plugging up the toilet, but not before I had about an inch of sewage water in my bathroom.
The complex had to replace carpets and send professional cleaners out.
They claimed that since we were on the first floor, there must have been a clog somewhere and we were the unlucky ones since we are on the first floor.
Well, the problem still persists. The toilet gurgles every couple of days.
I'm afraid to leave my apartment!!
Whenever I do, I plug up the toilet just in case. The apartment complex says there is nothing wrong as their maintenance crew cannot find a clog anywhere.
Is something wrong with the plumbing? The building is only 4 years old and rather new. Perhaps something was connected wrong?
Should sewage have spilled out of the sink and bathtub?
I do not have any problems with my other toilet and it has never gurgled.
What should I do?

Edit:
I remembered some more details. I can sometimes hear water going through the walls. I assume that one of the neighbors upstairs flushed the toilet or released some bath water. This is another time when the toilet will gurgle. Also, during my toilet sewage spill, the water was warm? As if somebody released some bath water and that was the reason for the backup?
Still, don't apartments have recourse for this, like a one-way valve (if one exists? I'm no plumber so I wouldn't know)

[jadnashua]

To me, it appears that there is a partial blockage. It allows things to go down except when there is a large volume of water, such as when someone is doing a load of wash, or emptying a bathtub, then, because of the volume it can't all go down fast enough, and it backs up at the lowest point - your apartment.

The alternatives to this are that the pipes weren't sized properly, and they just can't handle the volume of all of the fixtures, and it just backs up.

The gurgles could be that the vents are not designed properly, or are plugged up.

One of the pros will eventually critique my thoughts!

[scoobydo]

Another detail I just remembered:
On the night of the sewage backup, my wife recalls hearing the upstairs neighbor flushing the toilet like 20 times she says.
The upstairs neighbor has like 5 cats.
During the sewage backup, as I was waddling in the nasty sewage, I noticed that some of the "pieces" looked similar to cat feces.
Could the people upstairs have had the stupid idea of flushing cat liter down the toilet? If so, what kind of damage or blockage could that have caused?
I say this to try to find an answer, but the gurgling problem was there even before they moved in.
I have no proof they did this, I am just trying to remember all the details.

Also, the apartment complex has underground parking. All the pipes for the complex are clearly visable on the ceiling of the parking structure.
During the backup, I went downstairs to the parking garage and saw water dripping from the pipes directly underneath our apartment causing a large pool on the floor.

I really don't think the blockage is in our apartment as we were the very first tenants to this apartment (as I mentioned it was newly built).
We rarely use this bathroom as it is our second bathroom.
Should I have them call out a professional plumber or the contractor themselves to check things out?

[Mikey]

I'd move. .

[scoobydo]

I'd move. .
Why do you say that? Is the problem not fixable?

[Mike50]

Most Cat litter is clay based. With 5 cats you are talking about 40 pounds of clumping litter per month.

If you don't see cat litter in the main trash receptacle eventually----they are flushing it. Pretty hard to not find or smell that much litter (cat urine=ammonia).

"Flushable Litter" is a big selling point for some major brands. (arm and Hammer)

I am Not a plumber nor do I play one on TV. :)


Mike

[plumber1]

Get someone to Snake out that portion of the darned sewer.

You have a sewer obstruction or plug. It's only going to get worse.........

[scoobydo]

Get someone to Snake out that portion of the darned sewer.

You have a sewer obstruction or plug. It's only going to get worse.........
Would they do that from my apartment, or underneath where all the pipes are at?

[Mikey]

I'd move...
While that was a tongue-in-cheek remark, unless your apartment management is unusually attentive and competent this could be a long slog to get fixed. At the minimum, document the hell out of everything (times, dates, pictures, correspondence) so that you will have good grounds to break the lease if it comes to that.

[scoobydo]

While that was a tongue-in-cheek remark, unless your apartment management is unusually attentive and competent this could be a long slog to get fixed. At the minimum, document the hell out of everything (times, dates, pictures, correspondence) so that you will have good grounds to break the lease if it comes to that.
Well, this is pretty upscale place and management is pretty attentive.
They have been really attentive to this issue since it happened.
So again, what should my recourse be? Should professional plumbers come to my unit or should they be looking at the pipes under the building?

[Mikey]

My recourse would be to document everything -- every gurgle, and any other hints that might apply -- to aid the complex management and tradesmen who show up to work on the problem, and let the management handle it -- that's what you're paying them for. Don't let them ignore you, however.

[scoobydo]

My recourse would be to document everything -- every gurgle, and any other hints that might apply -- to aid the complex management and tradesmen who show up to work on the problem, and let the management handle it -- that's what you're paying them for. Don't let them ignore you, however.
I will do that. I documented everything during the sewage backup, going as far as saving all e-mails and actual mail correspondance from the complex manager.
I have everything in a nice folder as well as very graphic pictures of the sewage spill.
So I am safe in assuming that this is a partial blockage or clog that is causing this?
Also, is it common to have sewage come out of the sink and bathtub during a backup?

[molo]

Hey Scooby,
What did your apt. owner/manager do to compensate you for this mess? I own/manage a couple of apts. and we had this happen to someone. Sewer backed up through the tub, he called me. As soon as I arrived I said "let's go". And I took him to a nearby hotel, and put him up for the night. Then I went back to the apt. and cleaned up the mess myself. I disenfected the floors (which were not carpet luckily) and anywhere the sewage had gone. This is why I have no problem finding tenants because I take care of them like they should be taken care of. I hope that you didn't clean up the mess yourself, and if you did I would ask the property owner if you could give them an invoice for your time in doing the work. Most rental owners are responsible for maintenance. (all leases and agreements vary).

Anyway, It sounds like plumbing is too small, there is still a plug, or your upstairs neighbors are going to screw you over everytime they start treating a drain like a black hole.

Good Luck and Please report back with your results,
Molo

[scoobydo]

Hey Scooby,
What did your apt. owner/manager do to compensate you for this mess? I own/manage a couple of apts. and we had this happen to someone. Sewer backed up through the tub, he called me. As soon as I arrived I said "let's go". And I took him to a nearby hotel, and put him up for the night. Then I went back to the apt. and cleaned up the mess myself. I disenfected the floors (which were not carpet luckily) and anywhere the sewage had gone. This is why I have no problem finding tenants because I take care of them like they should be taken care of. I hope that you didn't clean up the mess yourself, and if you did I would ask the property owner if you could give them an invoice for your time in doing the work. Most rental owners are responsible for maintenance. (all leases and agreements vary).

Anyway, It sounds like plumbing is too small, there is still a plug, or your upstairs neighbors are going to screw you over everytime they start treating a drain like a black hole.

Good Luck and Please report back with your results,
Molo
I called and they sent out somebody that night to clean up the mess and pull the carpet. The next day they sent out a professional cleaning crew. Once everything was dry, they sent out a carpet cleaner to steam clean and disinfect the carpets near the area. We were inconvenienced for about 4 days, but I think they did a decent job of handling the situation.
We lost a lot of things in the bathroom due to it being heavily soiled or wood being saturated and ruined. All toll I think we lost about $400 which is not that bad. They only offered to compensate us for $100 off our next rent. I found that kind of insulting considering we pay $1600 in rent (bay area sucks, I know!) and instead returned their letter saying to keep it and to intern focus there attention on solving the problem.
I will meet with them tomorrow and see what happens. I'm also writting a letter of our conversation tomorrow to document it.
I'm sure it cant be small pipes as our master bedroom bathroom is fine and has never had any problems. It has to be a partial clog somewhere.
Seeing as your a manager, do I have any recourse if a backup happens again? Or am I SOL?

[molo]

I'm guessing the owners/managers might have suggested that you get "renters insurance". And this is what I would reccomend. Many leases contain items explaining that the owners have liabilty insurance for damage to the structure, but not for the occupants possesions. This is why I would reccomend a renters or tenants insurance policy. They are cheap. $70-100 a yr. and your possesions will be covered in the event of another backup, or waterleak, or anything that has happened in the building that you aren't responsible for.
As far as recourse against the owners, Keep it simple, call them on the phone and ask them what you can do to collect your losses if the problem happens again.
If they don't suggest acceptable solutions, and you haven't found comfort in a tenants insurance policy, then I would change course. I would document everything, I would even get them to sign something acknowledging that it happened once and what they offered you. (you could even tell them it's for your renters insurance company). Photo Document your possesions in the bathroom. Photo document the problem if it happens again.

Remember this: Stay out of court if you can! Even small claims court costs you time and money in preparing for it. Usually you can resolve issues like this through calm discussions while maintaining your composure.
Also, I understand you were insulted by his offer. I would have taken the accepted the money and still followed up with a letter of dissatisfaction with the services they provided. I am surprised they offered you anthing at all, and didn't simply raise the renters insurance question. Never turn down money offered to you from a landlord for losses you truly incurred. He's sitting at dinner right now bragging that he offered a tenant a $100 bill and he didn't take it.

Good Luck,
Molo

[Verdeboy]

In the last apartment complex I managed, we had a similar problem in one of our buildings. It was an ongoing issue, because one of the main drain lines had partially collapsed. We couldn't fix the problem without moving everyone out of the building, so we had a licensed plumber come out and snake the line every three weeks ad infinitum. We never had a backup again in that building.

I think your management needs to try this preventive maintenance approach. Maybe start off snaking the line every 2 months and see if the gurgling stops.

[plumber1]

Dig the damn thing up.......dig it up.

[Mikey]

Odd that you only see the problem in one bathroom. Is that one close to the main stack, perhaps, and the master bath further away? It sounds like waste from upstairs is encountering a clog downstream from your unit, and backing up. The branch line to the affected bath is short enough that the backup overflows through the fixtures, whereas the master bath is far enough away that the backup just fills the waste line to the MB, without overflowing. That's a guess, which you're welcome to disregard... in any case, a description of your waste line topology would be welcome. As I understand it, you're on the bottom floor, so you can see all your pipes in the garage ceiling? They shouldn't be dripping, BTW -- all waste should be contained in the pipes, unless there's an overflow finding its way down to the garage, or there's a leak in the system somewhere.

[Mike50]

I'm guessing the owners/managers might have suggested that you get "renters insurance". And this is what I would reccomend. Many leases contain items explaining that the owners have liabilty insurance for damage to the structure, but not for the occupants possesions. This is why I would reccomend a renters or tenants insurance policy. They are cheap. $70-100 a yr. and your possesions will be covered in the event of another backup, or waterleak, or anything that has happened in the building that you aren't responsible for...{...}
Molo

When I rented I usually carried a renters/liability policy. Mine also covered
general liability which is great in case someone sues you for bodily injury.
It also covered the contents of your car. (clothing, CD's etc.)
I paid around 120 per year--but that was 20 years ago. Not sure if we are talking about the same coverage.


Also Scooby--you are in pretty good shape legally no matter what happens.
The 100 dollar offer is an admission of Liability.
and Yea-bay area rent is actually worse than Beverly Hills.

Mike

[Verdeboy]

Dig the damn thing up.......dig it up.

If you're referring to my post, the bad section of pipe was under one of the main structural walls of the building. This building houses 36 apartments on three floors. The solution required moving everyone out of the building for who knows how long, jacking up the whole side of the building, if that is even possible, etc. etc.

The cost would have been tens of thousands of dollars not including lost rent and damage to the building. The plumber was charging $90 to snake out the building every three weeks from the cleanout in the laundry room to the street. That's about $1600/yr. If you do the math, it was infinitely cheaper that way.

[plumber1]

I remember the time when one of the contractors got mad at the plumber and put a 2x4 in the sewer and the building backed up all the time. You can't snake that out, but they had to break floor and repair it.

[scoobydo]

So They came out to look at my toilet. They went downstairs and opened the pipes to my toilet all the way to the huge main line and found no clog or problem at all.
I enclosed pictures of the setup underneath.
The main line (not pictured) looks huge (About 10 inches in diameter) so i assume the clog happened before that.
Like I said he opened up the lines (pictured) at both ends and could actually see no clog. He also opened up the lines at my Toilet & Sink and found nothing?
So why on earth is this toilet gurgling?
Is there another reason for gurgling other than a clog?

[Mikey]

Others may know the secret, but it's not terribly obvious to me that there are any vents in that mess of pipes. I'm also not crazy about the circuitous route things take to get to the main drain, especially that 135-degree turn. If you imagine lots of waste from upstairs coming into pic #1's area, it looks like it'd be just as easy to get to your toilet as it is to get to the main drain -- easier, in fact, in spite of the slope. I'd ask them to route your drain directly to the main and isolate your mess of pipes from the upstairs mess of pipes. Finally, when he said he opened up the lines "at both ends", could you maybe show us in the pics exactly where he looked?

[scoobydo]

Others may know the secret, but it's not terribly obvious to me that there are any vents in that mess of pipes. I'm also not crazy about the circuitous route things take to get to the main drain, especially that 135-degree turn. If you imagine lots of waste from upstairs coming into pic #1's area, it looks like it'd be just as easy to get to your toilet as it is to get to the main drain -- easier, in fact, in spite of the slope. I'd ask them to route your drain directly to the main and isolate your mess of pipes from the upstairs mess of pipes. Finally, when he said he opened up the lines "at both ends", could you maybe show us in the pics exactly where he looked?

In this picture I indicated with red lines, the sections he took off to look.
5 sections in all.
You mentioned vents? It should have them or it shouldn't?

[scoobydo]

Sorry, forgot the pic.

[Mikey]

I don't think he went far enough -- he stopped right at that hard turn I didn't like. Everything needs to be vented. Since I'm just an amateur plumber, however, I'm going to bow out here and let the pros have a crack at it.

mike

[plumber1]

If your still the low man on the totem pole, has any one opened up the main drain, or building sewer?

[scoobydo]

If your still the low man on the totem pole, has any one opened up the main drain, or building sewer?
Thats what I don't understand. The Main drain is huge and is connected to all 6 apartments on my side of the building. I am the only one who had a sewage backup. If the stoppage was in the main drain, more than just my apartment would have been backed up. A backup would have spread to all the connecting pipes of all the first floor apartments. This is why I think the plug happened before the main drain since I was the only one affected.

[plumber1]

What did the plumber say about that terrible u-bend where your system connects to the line that goes to the main drain?

[Mikey]

...and suggest that once in a while (I get the impression that this problem only occurs once in a while) a pretty good clog forms at the U-turn that plumber1 and I don't like. When that happens, the pipe backs up slowly as waste accumulates. When the toilets upstair flush, their waste encounters a closed pipe and as they fill up that pipe, the air in the pipe compresses and your toilet gurgles. Once things settle down, your trap drains slightly, lowering the water level. The clog can either clear itself or not -- the more pressure behind it, the more likely it will clear. If it does not, more and more waste will accumulate in the pipe, and will eventually overflow your toilet, which looks to be the lowest-level exit in this system. If this scenario is anywhere near accurate, it implies a lousy or nonexistent vent system, and a real need to straighten out that tangled web of pipe. There may be a Code provision in San Francisco that allows no vents if everything drains into a truly huge main line, but the route all that sewage is taking to get to that huge pipe invites clogs. I can't believe it would pass inspection.

[plumber1]

Mikey, you said it well............

[Mikey]

I get the impression the plumber that disassembled things was there when things were working OK. Everything point to clogs that form, screw things up for a while, then clear themselves. Given the number of fixtures and the wild turns, and the likely buildup of cat litter (the new clumping litter looks like a good thing to use to plug holes in leaking dikes), I'm leaning again toward my initial advice...:D .

[Mike50]

{.....} and the likely buildup of cat litter (the new clumping litter looks like a good thing to use to plug holes in leaking dikes), I'm leaning again toward my initial advice...:D .

Truth in humor Mikey. Clumping cat litter is Bentonite Clay.
And it is in fact used as a waterproofing sealant. See below:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentonite

"The property of swelling also makes sodium bentonite useful as a sealant, especially targeted for the sealing of subsurface disposal systems for spent nuclear fuel [1] [2] and for quarantining metal pollutants of groundwater. Similar uses include making slurry walls, waterproofing of below grade walls and forming other impermeable barriers (e.g. to plug old wells or as a liner in the base of landfills to prevent migration of leachate into the soil)."

Especially, If you have an expensive new plumbing system-you would have to be out of your mind to flush this stuff.


Mike

[scoobydo]

...and suggest that once in a while (I get the impression that this problem only occurs once in a while) a pretty good clog forms at the U-turn that plumber1 and I don't like. When that happens, the pipe backs up slowly as waste accumulates. When the toilets upstair flush, their waste encounters a closed pipe and as they fill up that pipe, the air in the pipe compresses and your toilet gurgles. Once things settle down, your trap drains slightly, lowering the water level. The clog can either clear itself or not -- the more pressure behind it, the more likely it will clear. If it does not, more and more waste will accumulate in the pipe, and will eventually overflow your toilet, which looks to be the lowest-level exit in this system. If this scenario is anywhere near accurate, it implies a lousy or nonexistent vent system, and a real need to straighten out that tangled web of pipe. There may be a Code provision in San Francisco that allows no vents if everything drains into a truly huge main line, but the route all that sewage is taking to get to that huge pipe invites clogs. I can't believe it would pass inspection.
It really sounds like you hit the nail on the head. I have not had any gurgling since they came out to open things up. (fingers crossed)
However, it was not once in a while. The thing gurgled at least 2 or 3 times a week for as long as we have lived here, about 2 years.
Who would I contact to check to see if the venting is up to code?
I have looked at those pipes underneath for about a week now and I keep thinking what your saying. Why not take a direct course to the main line? The extra twists and turns will only cause problems.
How big of and undertaking would it be to correct that?
Oh, its San Jose CA not San Francisco. I'm not sure if that matters or not just thought I would mantion it.

[Mikey]

It really sounds like you hit the nail on the head. I have not had any gurgling since they came out to open things up. (fingers crossed)
When they "opened things up", did they actually find any clogs or crud in there that they cleaned out?

However, it was not once in a while. The thing gurgled at least 2 or 3 times a week for as long as we have lived here, about 2 years.
I would believe that. With the fall of the upstairs lines and (I'm still assuming) no vents, you might see gurgling with minor clogs which might clear themselves regularly. If they occasionally don't clear themselves, then you'd see backups and overflows.

Who would I contact to check to see if the venting is up to code? I would call the local building department people and ask for an inspector to come out. You might have to pay for this, but on the initial call, tell them the situation, and that the conformance to Code has been questioned, and you'd like an opinion from the horse's mouth.

I have looked at those pipes underneath for about a week now and I keep thinking what your saying. Why not take a direct course to the main line? The extra twists and turns will only cause problems.
How big of and undertaking would it be to correct that?You'd have to get a quote from a plumbing contractor for that. It would depend of whether there's a clear path for the rerouted pipes or not, among other things. I'm a little surprised the plumber that was there didn't comment on crazy routing of your pipes, so maybe there's something I'm leery of that's OK in your area.

Oh, its San Jose CA not San Francisco. I'm not sure if that matters or not just thought I would mantion it.Probably better, in that it's a smaller area and the Building Official might be more inclined to help a resident than in a large city. If you know anyone on the city council or whatever they call it there you might get some leverage through him or her.

Good luck...