Insured Plumbers Vs Jacklegs

[master plumber mark]

People wonder why plumbers charge what they do.....

One big expence for REAL PLUMBERS ACTUALLY IN BUSINESS IS

<<<INSURANCE>>>>> and plenty of it.......

Just wondering what the average insurance coverage

is for most plumbers in business in the USA...




and we are S incorporated


you are going to have to chew through a lot of money before

you take a bite out of my hide....

[coach606]

I suppose you need a lot of insurance to protect yourself and your family.

But I've never known anyone who sued their plumber. That's not to say it can't and doesn't happen. But it must be somewhat rare. Heck, the developer who built my condo never brought some items up to code. He told me flat out that the city will either make him change things or not, but he's not doing it because I'm mentioning the code. We had tons of problems and we never sued. Our condo president was a lawyer for the City of Chicago. You know what he said? Lawsuits were costly, risky crapshoots. Lots of people wanted to sue this developer, but we consistently realized it wasn't worth it. I still made out great on the condo.

Our teacher's union has over a million dollars in insurance to cover anything that happens in a classroom when kids are in your charge.

I'm usually glad I have the insurance I do, but I occassionally think that it's a bit paranoid.

Anyone else?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

When I first opened shop I had 2 million in coverage. Now, I have state minimum. I didn't do it because of cost or my low callback ratio.

Why would I want to give an open checkbook to anyone who wants to fatten their financial portfolio?

When you burn down a million dollar home, figure another million to cover furnishings and all of that other stuff in with compensation for the loss. You give a lawyer a fat insurance policy and you'll be paying through the nose when you get cancelled and have to look for another. Then you will be going after the minimum requirements.......not by choice but by the fact you can't afford anything else.

I was told to go this route with state minimum for the fact that I am a S-corp and double doors are the norm in this setup.

I do not agree with LLC's. I hate the word "limited liability". Hard words to overcome if you are a customer entrusting your service provider.

I pay $700/year all at one time and I figure that's just part of business.

[master plumber mark]

Rugged, ......a low call back ratio dont mean squat......

even being an S corp does not mean you cannot

be sued out of business.... or literally BLED DRY..

An Umbrella insures you for another mil of

coverage and it also covers any LEGAL expences that might

arise from being sued.... your legal defence FOR FREE...

Without an Umbrella , if you get friviousley NAMED in a Lawsuit

you still have to defend yourself even if you are completely 100%

innocent... or you might have a judgement claim against you.....THATS VERY BAD.

That can cost you a lot of out of pocket money to have a Lawyer defend

you. and possibly put you out of business..

Do you know any honest Lawyers that will treat you right and not overcharge you
when you are at their mercy???


with the umbrella, your legal defence is all paid for.
--------------------------------------------------------------------






I mean this with all due resepct.....honestly

you should not got out the door today without it...

[Cass]

I am saying this from legal knowlage.

If you have or are incorporated and you think this protects you from personal liability in a legal action you need to talk to a lawyer who specificly deals with corporations.

Corporations can to a degree protect you only if specific things are done and followed your lawyer can explane it all to you.

Many people are deceived into thinking that by incorporating they are protected personally when most of the time they are not.

Insurance is the best protection.

Talk to a lawyer about it.

[master plumber mark]

a corporation is only as good as the paperwork it keeps....

the VEIL of the corp can be pierced ANYTIME BY ANY LAWYER

becasue their is NOT ENOUGH INSURANCE to cover the MASSIVE DAMAGES

and judgement from a lawsuit.............

they follow the money trail like hound dogs.......


then the President, Vice President and Secretery can all be

gone after for their assets...........

It all depends on YOUR ASSETS and the others in the S corp
if it is worth them going after.....






NEVER < EVER > EVER become a VP or secretary for

some "brother in law" wanting to set up some sort of "half assed corp"


it can get you into very hot water some day...

[coach606]

When we bought our house our lawyer advised us to both become "tenants in the entirety." She said it would protect us if either of use were individually named in a lawsuit because technically we would both own 100% of the house.

I'm sure this isn't 100% certainty, but it's some protection.

I also find that many teachers here in Chicago really believe that they can lose their houses over friviolous lawsuits over kids and their grades, etc. It's definitely a fear tactic applied by parents and sometimes administration. It's also total bs.

A lot of money is made playing on people's fears. This discussion is another example of it. It all depends on your experiences, but most of us aren't likely to be sued, ever. Consider the math involved. $700 for insurance with a possible payout of 2 million. Something like one out of every 10,000 people are sued in this calculation by the insurance company just for them to break even. So it's likely less. Or look at it this way 100 out of every million people are sued based on these calculations. I guess it could be you. I would lose my mind paying 60k because of tapping that school bus.

Insurance is a great thing for piece of mind. But I advise that you also keep some realistic numbers in your head. Not everyone is an unscrupulous, money hungry jerk.

One thing I've learned as a public school teacher in Chicago is that 99.9% of all kids are perfectly nice and decent people.

[master plumber mark]

well the world might be all peaches and cream,

but all it takes is one person trying to

" grab the brass ring through your wallet"


been there and done it,

even got the T shirt too.....
---------------------------------------------

It says somewehre to "Love all your brothers" ,

it dont say anything about trusting all of them....

By trusting everyone , you could suffer the consequences.....

of being that gullible....and learning this lesson the hard way.

[prashster]

Not all liability claims are sinister, Coach. Sometimes a good guy makes an honest mistake or hits an unforseen snag. In that case, insurance is (hat tipped to Martha Stewart) a good thing.

[coach606]

Good point.

[coach606]

I'm sorry about your accident. Sounds like a raw deal.

What you have to understand is that anyone can sue. State law in my part of the country says that you cannot sue a public school for negligence, only for willful conduct. So if I slip on some ice in the parking lot, I would have to prove someone put the ice there willfully, in order to hurt me. This is state law.

Do people sue? All the time. There are tons of state laws against suing public institutions and yet they are sued all the time. A lot of these suits are settled because the state doesn't want the risk of a big judgement. And it would be a risk.

Tennants in the entirety is real protection. It won't stop someone from trying to get your house. But legally no one suing you can take it because it's not yours! Could a court overturn this and give your house away? I suppose so. But it's darn unlikely.

Anyone can sue. That doesn't mean he/she will win.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Dag Nabit!

Now you got me thinking and the idiots I have to drive around all the time wouldn't be a bad idea.

In the grand scheme of things it couldn't be that much more for the umbrella policy.

When I first got incorporated my lawyer told me that it's best to get anything of value into your name personally. I'd ask "Is that true?" but this is a plumbing forum, not a legal advice forum.

[Cass]

RUGGED, if it is in your name and the corporation doesn't shield you then all your assets are right there for them to grab. The right kind of Trust, as long as it is set up right, is what I think works best.

Having the Corp. is good for deductions, ect. but not for protection. For protection insurance and a Trust.

[master plumber mark]

---------------------------------------------------------

Heres a cute one for you.....

I put in a gang sink in a factory back in 1993

they had in- house maintaince people that repaired it from then on

I never touched the unit since 1993


In 2000 the guy that actually was going to repair it
slipped on the floor in the water leaking from that unit
and cracked his skull open...hurt himself pretty bad....

I got named in the lawsuit.....for not properly installing
this unit 1993 !!!!! LOL....


So I turned it over to the Lawer that was in retainership

with my insurance company , and eventually (after about 9 months)

it all was thrown out of court.....


but I never had to pay a lawyer one red cent in defence of my

FRIVILOUS lawsuit.....

The lawyer could have stuck me for 9 months worth of billing

and I would have been at his mercy for time and expences....

[coach606]

Peace of mind is what matters, I guess.

My opinion is not to get too hung up paying for insurance. If you've been paying $1400 a year for 15 or 20 years that adds up fast to 20 or 30k in insurance.

I'm sure the court took 9 months to meet, but I don't think that means your lawyer was billing you for nine straight months of hours. What leg work did he have to do on this one?

If you're happy with the insurance and your peace of mind, then it's the right decision for you.

I'll take the longshot risk of that frivolous lawsuit because believing that I will honestly need 30k worth of insurance payouts because everyone is looking to sue is even worse in my mind. This is a plumbing forum, not political, but I will say that a huge part of our economy is based on fear. Insurance definitely is.

The odds are way in your favor on this issue. Insurance companies know the figures. There making out great on all these payments because the odds are really slim that they'll have to make a big payout.

That's the real peace of mind.

[Cass]

Here is a little bit of info few realize. If you are in an accident and it is your fault and the person you hit has a $1,000.00 deductable on their policy, and the rest is paid by your Ins. Company.

They can come after you for the $1,000.00 deductable they had because you caused their loss. The courts will up hold that.

[master plumber mark]

A company is no different than a
ship at sea.....

I dont care how much something adds up to after 30years....



When or if that big storm hits and you begin takeing on water
you cant start crying and whineing for help......after the fact....

So if your ship sinks, it sinks, and you simply have to start all over.....


To work your whole life to build up a business ....
only have it all taken away from you because

some drunken idiot employee gets into an accident
while working and or DRIVEING for you .
( I know of others in town where this has happenned)

or just an honest fender bender accident,

or a stupid dis-honest frivilious lawsuit

This is not a happy event in anyones life....



to be left hanging out to dry for over 9 months,





So you all do as you wish.......good luck ..god bless...


remember like I said earlier ,,,

I have personally been there and done all this

I have taken the free tour and

I even got the TEE shirt

[coach606]

So get the insurance, but remember that it's extremely unlikely you'll ever need it. This way you're covered just in case, but you don't have go through the anguish of really believing that our legal system and our so society are that unfair and even out to get you.

Cass is right. If you really believe that because you properly installed a sink in 1992 and someone frivolously decides to sue you, that you need 2 million in insurance to cover for our screwed up legal system and semi retarded judges, you get no peace of mind, even with two million in insurance.

They'll just sue you ten times as much because you have such deep pockets.

[master plumber mark]

I dont think you are really following this concept....

What you feel comfortable with is all that mattters....



its an UMBRELLLA policy--






Are you aware that many lawyers hope that
you will just IGNORE their frivilous lawsuit that they file against you??

If you dio not defend yourself and do not show up to court
and they get a judgement against you
for $$$ then you got real troubles.......

getting that judgement reversed......no matter how stupid it all is.......






you can roll those dice , my freind, not me....

[Cass]

Trust me :) A Trust is the way to go for protecting assets. I would urge anyone wanting protection to look into them.

They also can eliminate probate court in the case that someone passes away. Lawyers and probate can eat up much of an estate left behind.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Trust me :) A Trust is the way to go for protecting assets. I would urge anyone wanting protection to look into them.

They also can eliminate probate court in the case that someone passes away. Lawyers and probate can eat up much of an estate left behind.

I've heard that as well. I'm in a situation right now related to business that needs to be done in that way.


I've seen many good points taken on this thread. On both sides as well. I think it is definitely worth talking to my insurance company as I feel that the money spent would be fruitful on all points considered. I drive like an idiot sometimes and I surely wouldn't want to give a free ticket to ride for someone that angered me on the road. They win and I'm paying my income for their ignorance. Life isn't fair. (starts crying uncontrollably)

[Dunbar Plumbing]

BUMP!

Well.....I did it. It's going to cost me probably $300+ more a year but that is roughly 2-3 service calls.

I raised my truck insurance around a million and the business even higher. I wasn't offered an umbrella policy though....never got a straight answer on that.


Also,

I'm trying to find out if I have "gap" insurance on my commercial vehicle. Anyone knows what this is......knows it is crucial to have....especially if you put tons of miles on your work vehicles or they get damaged quickly in the line of business.

It covers the actual loan amount you are financing and the true value of what your vehicle is worth. You total your vehicle out and don't have that coverage............you have to pay what the margin between those two are.

[master plumber mark]

its interseting that you could not get a straight answer about an Umbrella
policy......I dont understand why unless they simply dont want to be on the hook to defend you........

I would press them on that....If they are a first class insurance agencey

and not something being run out of someones garage,
they should be willing to offer that to you too.....




I have it on all my personal property.....

and just like my Smith + Wesson 9mm

I wont leave home without it.....


remember you can do those 2 or three extra service calls in one morning

and you can get sued out of your lifes work ---your business ----in one second.........

so honestly you really havent paid SQUAT for what you got.....

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Once again I talked to them and now have a million on both my company vehicle and a million on the business.

Here's a little factoid that may be of interest to others:

The insurance company is telling me that any contractor that does work as a service provider has a statute of limitations on work done for 10 years. My insurance company stated that it is getting harder for them (yeah right) since I could cancel my agreement with them....find another and they are still on the hook for 10 years. I don't know what to believe in this matter of what they mean other than they have to own up to it.

They are giving me a quote here soon for an umbrella policy.....they seem at odds for my wanting it as well. It shouldn't mean a hill of beans to them other than they have another policy to make money off of. This is the first time I've belonged to a forum and in turn cost me money indirectly.....but I'm not complaining.

I'll follow up one last time to see how the numbers stack against what was discussed.

[Cass]

Maybe they think you are going to scam them and that is why you want all the ins. coverage.

[Winslow]

unfortunately, one something happens and lawyers get involved it doesn't matter how nice or decent a person is. When somethng happens, usually everone involved in the project ends up in the litigation, whether they are responsible or not. They will often threated to sue just to get a settlement. When doing a job the customer declines your advice to replace that old pipe, then one week after you finish the water line fails in an area you never touched, they threaten to sue unless you pay them cash. Recently happened to the company I work at.

[Cass]

That is why on my invoice, when a customer declines to do what I recomend, I write out that the customer declined to do XYZ and make them initial it as well a sign the invoice.

[hj]

Insurance is like a vacuum breaker on a pedestal tub filler. You may never need it, but if you do, that is the wrong time to be thinking about getting it. I had a person claim that a softener I installed 15 years ago, (they furnished the softener), was installed improperly, so when the tank ruptured it flooded the house.

[master plumber mark]

After one year....(thats 365 days)
They can scream and holler all they
want to to my insurance company......


anyone can fool with what I installed
10 years ago....and anyone can make repairs
years later ......

so basically its their word against yours
what went on after you left....

ANYONE can turn up a water heater that you left set on LOW.
....and scald themselves...



they are only allowed one year to sue you
for poor workmanship and expect anything


after the one year warranty is up ...its called a

"frivilous" law suit

and that is what you need that handy

"umbrella" for....


let them duke it out with the litigation
lawyers from the insurance company for the
next 5 years......

[dubldare]

Two years (minimum) in MN.

[kordts]

I started my business a year ago as residential service plumbing shop. Illinois makes plumbers carry half a million bucks worth of ins. I doubled it to a cool million. The reason being is that I have started subbing for some mechanical contractors. I have done service and repair in schools, nukes, and coal burners now. Many of these places make their contractors carry a million, minimum. It isn't that much more.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Whelp, thanks to all for putting this bug in my ear so to speak. As a result of this topic bugging the hell out of me the day it was posted in regards to "bad scenarios".....I now have very good coverage, umbrella coverage, gap lease insurance and substantial coverage in the event of crap hitting the fan.

Took pulling teeth from the insurance company but I managed to get it all taken care of. I'm coming in around $2300/year and just to get the numbers up only raised everything........$500 higher. Worth every penny spent and hope I never have to use the insurance. I've played $100 slots at the gambling boats a couple times and won.....but I don't want to play those odds in the profession that affords my living.

I was told years ago that if you are working in high end homes.....if it costs a million.......it will be 2 million to rebuild/relocate the family and replace the contents.

[kordts]

Rugged,
what is your status with the state? I am an "S Corporation" for tax purposes, but that doesn't shield me for liability purposes. I think I am going to become an LLC for liability reasons. Especially if I hire employees, they can cause bodily injuries to someone, and the lawyers can't come after my checkbook.

[Cass]

kordts, look into a trust for protection. In my NSHO they are the way to go for protection. They can, if they are old enough and done right, protect against the IRS.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Rugged,
what is your status with the state? I am an "S Corporation" for tax purposes, but that doesn't shield me for liability purposes. I think I am going to become an LLC for liability reasons. Especially if I hire employees, they can cause bodily injuries to someone, and the lawyers can't come after my checkbook.


I'm the same. I hate the words "limited liability corporation" because people/customers know what that mean. I've had customers ask me if that is what I am and said no. People are getting smarter about the ropes of business due to all the hacks that have tried to ruin the reputation of a few good men.

trust for protection. In my NSHO < Cass.......what is all involved in this and what is NSHO stand for?

[Cass]

NSHO = Not So Humble Opinion

Trusts, in a nut shell, are entities that you place your assets in that the trust possesses. A trustee/ trustees controls them in the trust but you don't own them. You can use them for what ever you want. In a legal action you own nothing. When you pass away since you don't own them there is no estate and the trust just keeps on going with whoever is allowed access to the items in the trust and whoever is trustee keeps making decisions with the items in it.

You can place all your trucks and tools Ect. in a trust and lease them to yourself / your corp. Then place all your worldly goods in another.

[master plumber mark]

being an S corp is the best way to go......

it insualtes you pretty well from all things that could go
wrong......


thier are lots of things that can be deducted and perks
that are great about one.....


anything more than this you might want to get an
accountants advice,,,,,,


the LLC I thought was something that large , large companies
would put just portions of their assets into....

I know of one peron that owns some condos in Florida and he
has one complex in a LLC and another complex in another LLC
and so on and so on...... they a e all insualted from each other this way.....


by doing this LLC thing you can only sue the one complex or one LLC
and not the whole conglomerate,,,,,,



of course I dont need to worry about things like this yet.......

I am not related to that person

so its all just dust in the wind....

[master plumber mark]

today is one of those that makes you wince...


My father decided to pull out in front of a brand new BMW

totalled the new BMW and totalled the Ford van....


at this point no one appears seriousley hurt.


now we see how well the Umbrella insurance works...

[tonykarns]

Business owners should pay attention to customer service and financial disputes, adding arbitration or mediation clauses in contracts to resolve disputes before they ever become lawsuits.

[Marlin336]

Business owners should pay attention to customer service and financial disputes, adding arbitration or mediation clauses in contracts to resolve disputes before they ever become lawsuits.

I think Master Plumber Mark gave an excellent example of why this is not always possible. What do you do when some guy smashes his head as a result of something you aren't responsible for then trys to get a million bucks out of you?

[master plumber mark]

Business owners should pay attention to customer service and financial disputes, adding arbitration or mediation clauses in contracts to resolve disputes before they ever become lawsuits.

You do what you got to do.....as far as arbirtarion,

I suppose the Umbrella policy does all the "arbritation"

for me.......

that is what you buy the insurance for in the first place,

dont you think??

[mikept]

What about when a big accident happens and your insurance company uses twisted logic to claim that its not covered in your policy. Then you have to pay lawyers huge fees and go after your insurance company or go bankrupt. Its a terrible situation my father hapens to be in.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

and whats this got to do with getting T-boned?? ??


I wondered the same thing mark.

I think I can stop all lawsuits before they even happen, and I can make Sylvia Brown look like a hot latino lover!!! Oooooo hoochie mama come to papa bring me sum of dat shuu-gaaaaaah. Uh-huh


Sorry to hear of your accident; just hope that the people that got hit aren't ambulance chasers. They might be a decent folk but their lawyer might get frisky seeing opportunity with the sign on the side of the truck.

It's unfortunate but that's how the ball is played, the risk we take.

This is where you need to start charging premium "access" fees to your customers for hardship.

Keep it under $10, people you don't like, $40 to cover your anticipated cost increase for insurance premiums regarding the accident.


How old is your dad and is he doing okay?

Make the van disappear, don't bring it back to the shop; somebody will hop in it and say they hurt their back while it's parked in your driveway. :eek:

Happens all the time on the metro......

[tonykarns]

I think Master Plumber Mark gave an excellent example of why this is not always possible. What do you do when some guy smashes his head as a result of something you aren't responsible for then trys to get a million bucks out of you?

Thats exactly what the arbitration process prevents. If you lose in arbitration then your insurance kicks in. But having arbitration in the contract prior to using your insurance usually prevents the nuts from trying to get money from you in the first place if the cause of the problem has nothing to do with you. The arbitrator makes the decision as to whether or not your case moves to the insurance phase.

[Cookie]

Car insurance is one of those things you can't or shouldn't cut corners on. Go with the best companies only. This is one thing you surely, get what you pay for. Go with the ones that have been around for years and years and they have a good track record.

[tonykarns]

You do what you got to do.....as far as arbirtarion,

I suppose the Umbrella policy does all the "arbritation"

for me.......

that is what you buy the insurance for in the first place,

dont you think??

I was referring to business liability insurance not auto insurance.

[Redwood]

But I've never known anyone who sued their plumber.

Coach, Its not all that rare that a plumber gets sued! Have you ever heard of a plumber having a little accident with his torch and burning down a building? Have you ever heard of a house having a plumbing leak and then having a mold problem? Have you ever heard of polybutylene tubing? Have you ever heard of Kitec?

In the cases of polybutylene and kitec these were class action lawsuits that not only did they go after the company that made the defective product but they also went after the installing plumbers!

Plumbers do get sued and the cost of their liability insurance is passed onto you the customer as part of their overhead costs. I haven't had the pleasure of being sued yet but it can and will happen one day I'm sure. That is why I'm insured.

[master plumber mark]

What about when a big accident happens and your insurance company uses twisted logic to claim that its not covered in your policy. Then you have to pay lawyers huge fees and go after your insurance company or go bankrupt. Its a terrible situation my father hapens to be in.

You sound pretty bitter, and I can understand why
I know of a few companies that had to go under
not because of the lawsuit,

but becasue of the bills racked up
defending themselves in court....


I have a personal umbrella on my house and home and cars.....
that is what the umbrella is for.....in case some kid cuts across
my property and falls hurts himself....in the creek...

It only cost me an extra 150 per year for my personal
well being...



We have a umbrella on the business .....

to keep me from being sued in frivilious litigation
and having to be at the mercy of your own LAWYERS bills....


perhaps the Umbrella is a waste of money......

I suppose....
untill the day you wished you had
the thing in place...

you cant get cancer and then go out and try to
buy life insurance either.....


I just pay it and move on...

[tonykarns]

The umbrella policy does not kick in until you have exhausted all of your other insurance. Even if you buy the top-of-the-line personal liability umbrella policy, you can't protect yourself against every possible claim or lawsuit. There will be exclusions in the umbrella policy, just as there are exclusions in every insurance policy.

Typically, the umbrella won't cover claims arising out of a business endeavor. If you own a business — even a small one — you'll need to buy a business insurance policy to be covered against liability claims.

Your umbrella policy won't necessarily pay for punitive damages. Depending on the law in your state, the umbrella policy won't necessarily pay for punitive damages, either. These damages, above and beyond any actual monetary losses, are awarded to punish wrongdoers for their conduct and may not be covered by any insurance policy. Also, as a general rule, the umbrella policy won't cover your intentional acts that cause damage, unless there are extenuating circumstances. Not saying an umbrella policy is bad. Different strokes for different folks.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Coach, Its not all that rare that a plumber gets sued! Have you ever heard of a plumber having a little accident with his torch and burning down a building? Have you ever heard of a house having a plumbing leak and then having a mold problem? Have you ever heard of polybutylene tubing? Have you ever heard of Kitec?

In the cases of polybutylene and kitec these were class action lawsuits that not only did they go after the company that made the defective product but they also went after the installing plumbers!

Plumbers do get sued and the cost of their liability insurance is passed onto you the customer as part of their overhead costs. I haven't had the pleasure of being sued yet but it can and will happen one day I'm sure. That is why I'm insured.

Had a customer threaten to sue me just a few months ago when a macerating toilet I replaced backed up a week later and leaked onto the ceiling below.
It was a Sani flush..his jaw dropped when I pulled out bottle caps from the beer he'd served at a party the night before.
He'd been intimating I'd done something wrong to that point.
I'd warned him he should pay extra and have a drain installed for a regular toilet prior to changing the existing macerating toilet the week before.

[Redwood]

I wonder who was eating those bottle caps.... Musta been a real tough a**!:D

[Nate R]

Had a customer threaten to sue me just a few months ago when a macerating toilet I replaced backed up a week later and leaked onto the ceiling below.
It was a Sani flush..his jaw dropped when I pulled out bottle caps from the beer he'd served at a party the night before.
He'd been intimating I'd done something wrong to that point.
I'd warned him he should pay extra and have a drain installed for a regular toilet prior to changing the existing macerating toilet the week before.


So he had a macerating toilet on the 2nd floor? Why would anyone install that over a regular toilet to start with?

[construct30]

Let me put a new perspective on this thread. It all doesn't matter. Last week I was happy discussing code and thought I had all the right insurances. I've been married 25 years to my soul mate. Last Thursday I took her to the doctor for a lump we found. Friday she had a mammogram and ultra sound, Friday night the doctor called and said she needed to see a surgeon. Tuesday we saw the surgeon, he said surgery on Wednesday, got home the car broke down in the driveway. Wednesday she had the lump removed the surgeon told me it was cancer and she needed more surgery next Tuesday to see how bad it is, I went in the room and had to tell her, then I had to tell my three kids one boy 23 lives in Akron, The girl 18 is away at college and my youngest 17 at home. My wife is at home doing good physically. Today I took my work van to get it inspected and it broke down in the mechanics drive way, it will cost more than it's worth to fix. I would give anything I have or ever will have to change this past week and to keep my wife at least 25 more years.

[Cookie]

Watch what you wish for you just might get it! Times have changed so much in regards to treating the big C. You wouldn't believe it. I have been challenged by the big C, five times. Yes, enough of times to choke a horse, but, I am here to bother all you plumbers with my stupid questions, and comments. So, watch what you wish for, because you 2 will probably be spending yet, another 25 years together! I have alittle something to do with the American Cancer Society, lol. and I am telling ya, so many people are walking the walk, then running, and moving on and living a long time. It is not a death sentence. I can't repeat that enough. I have a different kind of cancer, so, mine was alittle harder to put into check, but, I did it. I think your wife is lucky to have you. You sound so supportive, and so loving, that just those 2 things alone, will raise her prognosis. Being positive really counts with this illness. Maybe, infact, with all illnesses. Nothing can beat a good positive mental outlook. Please trust me when I say, she will be fine, you both will be fine and will work it out, and by the way, I am sorry it did happen, it changes things, doesn't it? It is hard. God bless.

I think there is a website and a book which your wife would benefit from. http://www.whyiworelipstick.com/

[GrumpyPlumber]

So he had a macerating toilet on the 2nd floor? Why would anyone install that over a regular toilet to start with?

I am baffled at how or why the inspector allowed it.
He's on the ground floor with concrete slab below..the amount of work to run a new 3" drain would be drastic...but he'd have peace of mind.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Let me put a new perspective on this thread. It all doesn't matter. Last week I was happy discussing code and thought I had all the right insurances. I've been married 25 years to my soul mate. Last Thursday I took her to the doctor for a lump we found. Friday she had a mammogram and ultra sound, Friday night the doctor called and said she needed to see a surgeon. Tuesday we saw the surgeon, he said surgery on Wednesday, got home the car broke down in the driveway. Wednesday she had the lump removed the surgeon told me it was cancer and she needed more surgery next Tuesday to see how bad it is, I went in the room and had to tell her, then I had to tell my three kids one boy 23 lives in Akron, The girl 18 is away at college and my youngest 17 at home. My wife is at home doing good physically. Today I took my work van to get it inspected and it broke down in the mechanics drive way, it will cost more than it's worth to fix. I would give anything I have or ever will have to change this past week and to keep my wife at least 25 more years.


Construct...your in my prayers buddy.

[Nate R]

I am baffled at how or why the inspector allowed it.
He's on the ground floor with concrete slab below..the amount of work to run a new 3" drain would be drastic...but he'd have peace of mind.

But I thought you said it overflowed onto the ceiling below? How could that be if he's on the ground floor with a slab?

[frenchie]

Don't lose hope, buddy - what Cookie said is true - cancer's not a death sentence.

I have a client who'se been living with cancer (it goes away... it comes back...) for twelve years, now.

My brother in law's mother, was given 4 months to live - in 1968 - not only is she still walking around, she's an avid sea-kayaker at 78 years old!

My dad had prostrate cancer, he lived another 14 years; and when he did die, it was something completely unrelated.

[Cookie]

Frenchie, even when I am wrong I am right. lol. But, this I know I am right about. You got to get a certain mindset with it, you got to. You got to be positive. I am and have been told all my life, I am head-strong. That is the attitude one must have. I am woman. :D Hear me roar! Think of it only as a pimple on your arse that is all the energy you should give to it. Devote the rest of your energy into living.

[Mikey]

Let me put a new perspective on this thread. It all doesn't matter. Last week I was happy discussing code and thought I had all the right insurances. I've been married 25 years to my soul mate. Last Thursday I took her to the doctor for a lump we found. Friday she had a mammogram and ultra sound, Friday night the doctor called and said she needed to see a surgeon. Tuesday we saw the surgeon, he said surgery on Wednesday, got home the car broke down in the driveway. Wednesday she had the lump removed the surgeon told me it was cancer and she needed more surgery next Tuesday to see how bad it is, I went in the room and had to tell her, then I had to tell my three kids one boy 23 lives in Akron, The girl 18 is away at college and my youngest 17 at home. My wife is at home doing good physically. Today I took my work van to get it inspected and it broke down in the mechanics drive way, it will cost more than it's worth to fix. I would give anything I have or ever will have to change this past week and to keep my wife at least 25 more years.

Don't give up yet. A good friend of mine was diagnosed with the Big C about 16 years ago. She's still alive and kicking, and is an enthusiastic advocate and supporter for cancer patients and survivors; a truly remarkable lady. You can read her story here: http://www.yana.org/hetrick/ibc001.htm

There are also references to other Web articles she wrote, and she will be happy to correspond with you.

[Cookie]

The truth is, you never give up. You just won't know if that next drug will work. Two years ago, I was told by my onc the drugs weren't working. Of course I already knew that. I tried, Rituxan again. Then, again. Sure, I grew a third eye, and another appendage, lol. but, it finally worked. So, you never know. I spent out of 10 years, 4 on chemo. But, I stop and think once in awhile~~just imagine, if I threw in the chips. Death is not an option, especially, with all the meds there are today. Even though I have NHL indolent and intermidate, I coordinate the breast cancer programs for the ACS. The success is a truly wonderful thing to see. No one needs to ever give up and abandon ship. Ever. We are learning so much.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I hope they caught this before stage 3.


Getting cancer in stage 1 has great results with chemo/radiation and Stage 2 can be attainable to get the upper hand if no lymph nodes involved.


Breast cancer's path is predictable most times in where it leads to next. Usually it goes from the breast to the spine or bone, which for most afflicted that is a tolerable situation.

But that step can be jumped unfortunately and it can go to one of five vital organs if L.N. was involved. Liver/kidneys/brain/lungs and reproductive area *women only*.


All of my above knowledge is first-hand experience to someone I knew personally.

Got an education I didn't want but it was good to know the ins and outs and what to expect.

Lymph nodes are the electrical system in the body; when cancer is involved in this network there is no reversal of fortune. Stem Cell infusion couldn't even stop it's aggressive manner.....just delayed the ending.

[Cookie]

Actually, mine was first diagnosed as a stage 3. Mine is of the lymph system. Non Hodgkins Lymphoma. This sometimes is alittle hard for people to understand, but, when mine was found it was found everywhere but my pelvic area. My spleen was infiltrated, my heart, both armpits and during staging my neck and ear. It continued to my arms, left leg, then my ankle. Also, 3 seemingly looking harmless, calcified, inoperable brain tumors. All by the time I was 44. Wow. I impress myself, lol. My body was busy. I am living proof, that stage isn't all that matters. It is developing an attitude that can't be beaten which counts the most, think Rocky.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_5_125v.gif

[GrumpyPlumber]

But I thought you said it overflowed onto the ceiling below? How could that be if he's on the ground floor with a slab?

Nate..a large residential highrise in the city, floors are all slab...finsih ceilings below.
Ever work on a large building where they pour 'crete over corrugate?

[Cookie]

Hey Grumpy, I love your avatar, lol. You are going to make Cass jealous. :D He's got that big big helmet, lol

[GrumpyPlumber]

Hey Grumpy, I love your avatar, lol. You are going to make Cass jealous. :D He's got that big big helmet, lol

I tried to find a way to put a Pats helmet on Matthua's head, but no go.

[construct30]

cookie thank you so much for your posts, I do need all the hope I can get.

More surgery scheduled Monday. Dye injections about 7:00 and surgery to check lymph nodes at about 11:00. We need all the prayers and well wishes we can get right not,please no more information, I think we have all that we can handle right now.

Sorry this is a really bad way to high jack a thread, I've just been reading at night and this topic appealed to me right now. Sorry Terry,I know there are forums for what I have going on, but I feel comfortable here, thanks for the forum.

I've always believed in carrying a good amount of insurance, but you do need to afford it. I guess carry as much as you can to protect yourself and do the best job you can to keep happy customers, most trouble comes when you leave people high and dry, or in our case very wet down low, when you made a mistake. When you do something wrong I believe you need to make is right. I know some customers want to be terrible, but most want to know you are willing to try to make it right. If not your working for the wrong people which is a new thread.

Thanks to everyone.

[Cass]

Construct, While I can't speak for MPM who started this thread, I really don't think he will mind if you hijack it a little.

[construct30]

Construct, While I can't speak for MPM who started this thread, I really don't think he will mind if you hijack it a little.


Thank you Cass.

I hope Terry don't mind. This is a bit of a downer. Not exactly the use the forum was intended for.

[Mikey]

Not exactly the use the forum was intended for.
Maybe not, but it's also a community that cares about its own, occasional rants notwithstanding.

[Cookie]

Hang in there and try not to worry so much. God bless.

[Nate R]

Nate..a large residential highrise in the city, floors are all slab...finsih ceilings below.
Ever work on a large building where they pour 'crete over corrugate?


Ahhh, makes sense. Explains it all. I work in a building that has concrete floors above the level I work on. Never crossed my mind in this case.

[Terry]

Sorry this is a really bad way to high jack a thread,


But sometimes there isn't a good way but to just say what's happening.
We are all just a blink from something good or bad happening.
We hope for the good, and when the bad happens, we hope some more.

I hope it all goes well for you. I've seen good things happen when things looked bad. Here's hoping your help arrives.

On a seperate note: My business used insurance last year. Glad I had it, and yes, premiums did go up for me for this coming year. But it's going to be a good year.

[construct30]

The second surgery to remove and check some lymph nodes went well this morning. The test to map them with imaging was almost as bad. We received a good result from the surgeon so now we have a long road of treatment, but at least it is a little clearer. Thank You all for your warm wishes and prayers.

[Cookie]

I love good news. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_204.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZK) I am so happy for you both!





http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb097&pp=ZK (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb097_ZK&utm_id=7925)