Estimate too low ?!

[lpennington]

I have spoken with a plumber who will be in our part of the country for the next month or two only. He offered to replace two toilets in our 11-yr old home for $45 / piece for labor. He also offered to switch out our showerhead and single-lever in our stand-up shower for $125.

From my searches on here, the prices seem great. Are they too great? if they are what's a ballpark figure for a rural/suburban area?

[fyi, he seems very knowledgeable and has disclosed that he's down here b/c his new england area is not good for his trade at the moment...]

[Cass]

I charge $150.00 to install 1 toilet.

[prashster]

Does that price assume no 'snags' like a cracked flange, etc. Perhaps his price is just for a straight unbolt/swap ring/rebolt job.

[master plumber mark]

he is looking for beer money while he is in town.....


I am sure the warranty he is giving you will run out when

the beer runs out......



of course if he floods you out its all going on your

homeowners insurance.......he aint comming back.......

so what is your deductable???

[coach606]

Assuming all he has to do is actually switch the toilets, there's nothing that can go wrong that wasn't already wrong. Unbolt, scrape off wax ring, install new wax ring, rebolt.

Don't worry about the warranty. There is not warranty on a toilet replacement. If you're handy, do it yourself. It's easy.

$150 is a lot of money to install a toilet. Plumbers charge a lot because they could be doing something that's very skillful with that same amount of time. So a unit of time spent in highly skilled plumbing or spent doing something fairly easy, like changing a toilet, is the same price.

I'll bet this guy will do it fine. There really is nothing that can go wrong that isn't already wrong, unless he overtightens the bolts and cracks your new toilet.



At least

[master plumber mark]

hey nothing ever goes wrong, thats why TERRY has this

plumbing forum set up, just so people can sit around

this site and talk about their plumbing conquests and victories

when they get bored........


all I know is if he comes home 6 months from now and finds the

house flooded, then his WIFE will have no one to blame but HIM...


and no one to call but their insurance company


so its his risk ,, isnt it??

[Cass]

Lets see I know someone that didn't hook up a toilet right and flooded a home when no one was home to the tune of $17,000.00.

If the wax ring doesn't go on right and you find out a month later Because the Lino/vinal floor has a stain that is spreading under the top surface or the wood floor is turning black.

The flange snapped while the toilet was being installed and the guy didn't say anything because after all he is only getting $45.00.

The toilet becomes loose and starts rocking / leaking.

Tank to bowl connection starts leaking.

Flange bolt cracks the bowl.

Supply stop starts leaking.

I carry $2,000,000.00 worth of liability ins. and have never had a claim.

These are a few of the reasons I charge the reasonable sum of $150.00.

not because

" Plumbers charge a lot because they could be doing something that's very skillful with that same amount of time. So a unit of time spent in highly skilled plumbing or spent doing something fairly easy, like changing a toilet, is the same price."

[Cass]

I have spoken with a plumber who will be in our part of the country for the next month or two only. He offered to replace two toilets in our 11-yr old home for $45 / piece for labor. He also offered to switch out our showerhead and single-lever in our stand-up shower for $125.]

Sounds like the traveling preachers they used to have in late 19th and early 20th century.

With all that has been said he may do a good job, who knows, it's just that when he's gone he ain't commin back..

[coach606]

I just wanted to say that I never meant to insult anyone.

I think you misunderstood me. If I hire a lawyer who makes $200 an hour to spend an hour doing complex legal work, it's the same fee as if I get him to agree to spend an hour changing my toilet. Why? Because the man is highly skilled, highly educated, and commands a premium salary reguardless of the complexity of the work.

What I said was a compliment, not an insult. No one would pay me $150 to change a toilet. Why? Because I don't have the advanced plumbing knowledge you do. You command a high price because you have a lot of skills in plumbing. That's totally legit. But this person still has a choice.

As for the toilet, I suppose anything could go wrong. But the bottom line is that any do it yourselfer who can follow a few simple instructions should be able to change a toilet out if nothing else is wrong. If your toilet already leaks, there could be a more serious problem. But if everything is fine and you're just changing to a new toilet, certainly a guy who's a plumber of some kind should be able to handle it with few complications.

Also, no one said to change the toilet and then go to Jamiaca for six weeks. Watch the toilet to see if it leaks. If it does, turn off the water supply. Flush the water out of it or suck it out with a wet vac. Diagnose the problem yourself with a plumbing book or by getting advice on a forum. OR hire a pro and be done with it.

I don't think this forum exists to because of the complexity of exchanging a toilet.

[coach606]

If you want to save money with this guy or do it yourself, it is a risk. But here's a breakdown of these issues.

1) Wax ring not going on right: I guess it could happen. If so, toilet will leak out of the bottom. If you have tile, you're probably okay. The floor should be covered with plywood, and then a "watertight" layer like cement board, then mortar, then tiles, then tile grout, then tile sealer. The floor is made to get wet and protected. I guess all hell could break loose, but it's unlikely in my amateur opinion. To fix this problem you just scrape off the old wax ring (it's soft wax, especially when new) and press on a new one. It's easy and most plumbing books have great pictures for how to do this.

2) The toilet becomes loose and starts rocking / leaking: Get out a wrench and carefully retighten the flange bolts. Pack them with plumbers putty, too. Or use plastic shims. These are all very easy fixes and they can happen even with a great plumber who probably won't shoot out of bed our duck out of a big job to put a plastic shim under your toilet.

3) Tank to bowl connection starts leaking: There's again a bolt there with a gasket. Just tighten it carefully. Don't overtighten it or you'll crack the porcelain.

4) Flange bolt cracks the bowl: This probably the most likely of the problems. Just watch the guy and if you hear a crack when he tightens the bolts, say, "what was that? Did you just crack the toilet by overtightening a bolt?"

5) Supply stop starts leaking: I assume this is because the "plumber" somehow wacked it. Again, watch him do the work. If it leaks, it can be replaced fairly easily. Ask the guy who does it to check it for leaks before he leaves. Check it yourself. Wipe it dry and then run a paper towel over it to check for leaks.

Hey, I'm just a homeowner who does occassional plumbing on his own house. So make your decision however you want. There are benefits to hiring a pro at $150 a toilet and benefits to saving money on something that is probably an easy job for anyone with a little plumbing experience UNLESS YOU ALREADY HAVE A PROBLEM with the toilet or shower.

Good luck with your choice.

[lpennington]

I am sure the warranty he is giving you will run out when

the beer runs out......

of course if he floods you out its all going on your

homeowners insurance.......he aint comming back.......

so what is your deductable???

ok ok ok! dayum, you made your point without trying to scare me. lol. I telephoned the state department of licensing where he said he resides from. They had his name listed in the database however the license was not active for this year ...

As you could tell from my post, i was somewhat wary. I was never worried about the quality of the job. He's a legimate plumber with many yrs experience and it's just a toilet (though I won't try). I also had reservations about not having any recourse in the event something went awry. There are many licensed plumbers w/ insurance in my area, so the competition keeps them honest re: price. This situation ... sometimes you just want to help out someone having a rough patch in life. I even told him, that I'm not looking to get a low price so as to equate stealing services and that I wanted him to be satisfied. Anyway, I'll save my "help someone out" good deed a task with less downside like cutting the lawn or something.

[SteveW]

If you want to save money with this guy or do it yourself, it is a risk. But here's a breakdown of these issues.

1) Wax ring not going on right: I guess it could happen. If so, toilet will leak out of the bottom. If you have tile, you're probably okay. The floor should be covered with plywood, and then a "watertight" layer like cement board, then mortar, then tiles, then tile grout, then tile sealer. The floor is made to get wet and protected. I guess all hell could break loose, but it's unlikely in my amateur opinion. To fix this problem you just scrape off the old wax ring (it's soft wax, especially when new) and press on a new one. It's easy and most plumbing books have great pictures for how to do this.

2) The toilet becomes loose and starts rocking / leaking: Get out a wrench and carefully retighten the flange bolts. Pack them with plumbers putty, too. Or use plastic shims. These are all very easy fixes and they can happen even with a great plumber who probably won't shoot out of bed our duck out of a big job to put a plastic shim under your toilet.



These are good examples of how common sense and intuition don't always work in our favor. As you can periodically read on this forum, wax rings do indeed fail, due to improper installation. This can and does lead to wood rot. The area right around the toilet flange is not likely to be completely waterproof with all the layers mentioned.

Also, if a toilet rocks, the proper response is to take it off, replace the wax ring, and set it back properly so it doesn't rock. If it has rocked, it means the wax ring seal has been broached, and the wax ring needs to be replaced. Simply tightening the bolts won't do it.

It's these kind of seemingly simple, but extremely important, points that real professionals know -- I say this as a reasonably well-informed layman, but I'll bet there are dozens more little points like that that a real plumber knows that I don't.

[Cass]

2) The toilet becomes loose and starts rocking / leaking: Get out a wrench and carefully retighten the flange bolts. Pack them with plumbers putty, too. Or use plastic shims. These are all very easy fixes and they can happen even with a great plumber who probably won't shoot out of bed our duck out of a big job to put a plastic shim under your toilet..

Plumbers putty should not be used on any part of a toilet instalation other than under the nut caps.


3) Tank to bowl connection starts leaking: There's again a bolt there with a gasket. Just tighten it carefully. Don't overtighten it or you'll crack the porcelain..

Some are to be tightened all the way some don't. You need to know which your dealing with.


4) Flange bolt cracks the bowl: This probably the most likely of the problems. Just watch the guy and if you hear a crack when he tightens the bolts, say, "what was that? Did you just crack the toilet by overtightening a bolt?".




5) Supply stop starts leaking: I assume this is because the "plumber" somehow wacked it. Again, watch him do the work. If it leaks, it can be replaced fairly easily. Ask the guy who does it to check it for leaks before he leaves. Check it yourself. Wipe it dry and then run a paper towel over it to check for leaks..

You would have to "wack" a pipe awfully hard to make it leak. The leak would likely come from dried out or egg shaped packing material. The stop may or may not need to be replaced.

Hey, I'm just a homeowner who does occassional plumbing on his own house. So make your decision however you want. There are benefits to hiring a pro at $150 a toilet and benefits to saving money on something that is probably an easy job for anyone with a little plumbing experience UNLESS YOU ALREADY HAVE A PROBLEM with the toilet or shower.

Good luck with your choice.[/QUOTE]

[prashster]

I also learned after hiring many contractors that all the reputable ones will carry liability insurance and will be ready to show proof of it to you. I take that as one sign of many that he is not a 'hack'.

That being said, I also cut costs and hire hacks every now and then - but only if I'm prepared to deal with the consequences of a botched job on my own.

- p

[Gouranga]

Wow, I have changed out a couple toilets and I am embarassed to say it but there are things here I had not thought about before. I am of course paranoid as all heck so after any of the toilet work I check at 1,2,3,and 4 weeks in the crawl space for any signs of water, leaks under the subfloor.
I do see your point with the pro though. I work in IT and I have been billed out (not paid, but billed out by my company) at $200/hr. there are guys who do it themselves, or hire someone MUCH cheaper. I spend a lot of time redoing their work too.
I would also be careful on the homeowners. From what I hear they can/will frequently use water damage claims as a reason to drop someone and blacklist them. Mind you that is not from personal experience, just from news articles and message boards.

[jimbo]

"hire a lawyer who makes $200 an hour to spend an hour doing complex legal work"...........around hear a lawyer charges $200 to answer the phone; the bill goes up from there! According to my recently divorced daughter: : "Marriage is grand....divorce is 40 grand!"Had a call yesterday from someone who had a plumber ( well, I think it was a handyman) install a new fluidmaster fill valve. Adjusted the height but forgot to reset the locking ring. About an hour after he left, the top of the fluidmaster lifted the lid off the tank, and the resulting gusher and flood was not pretty!As far as allowing an itinerant gypsy who " will be in town for few days " INTO my house, much less alllow him to mess with anything,.......you have just got to be kidding!"

[prashster]

I do see your point with the pro though. I work in IT and I have been billed out (not paid, but billed out by my company) at $200/hr. there are guys who do it themselves, or hire someone MUCH cheaper. I spend a lot of time redoing their work too.

The difference between IT and plumbing is that you don't need a license to 'practice' IT. I was an IT consultant for several years and spent a lot of time redoing more work from "Big 5" companies than redoing work from independent guys.

A plumbing license and good insurance speaks oodles more about the quality of a plumber than a pressed white shirt and an IBM nametag do about the quality of an IT professional (present company notwithstanding, of course Gouranga!)

[coach606]

I didn't know that about the wax ring needing to be changed if the toilet rocks. My bathroom has natural stones (not tiles) which are uneven. So the toilet is prone to rocking, but never leaking.

I've always used the plastic shims. Of course, I know what's under my toilet. I have open access in the basement below and know instantly if there's a leak. I also have some old school flooring set in cement and then I put in the stones on top of it, so my floor has some protective layers.

Hey, one reason I've done some work myself is because I have a lot of access to my pipes from the basement and an old house. I can easily and obsessively check for leaks.

[jadnashua]

Wax doesn't spring back...so, once you rock one way, it gets squished thinner, and you rock the other way, there is a gap. Now, since the water generally just falls down the middle, you may not notice any leaks (of water), but, it can leak vapors and gives cockroaches, flies, and other crawly things a means of accessing the drain/house interface. A waxless seal, offered by several companies, would potentially help a little here, but wax is a time-proven, long lasting method, and is cheaper, if installed properly.

[lpennington]

So I had a local licensed plumber from a plumbing company come by for an assessment on the toilets in our 10 yr home. Very nice man, even put on those disposable booties as soon as he walked in the door (my wife loved that). He just measured the space from the wall to the toilet bolts and said he would order the Drakes (said they're very good unlike the unlicensed guy who criticized and recommended a Wellington) although he gave zero indication of price not even an hourly rate! The office later gave me that when I called to ask a question.

The only discrepancy is that he thought we'd have to tear thru our wall to replace the 10 yr old Delta Monitor trim (showerhead, neck and lever) in our stand up shower but the Delta helpline said it was not necessary and mentioned that the warranty would provide us a free new set with cartridge for conversion ... hopeful our plumber was just playing it safe in making his judgment...

[jimbo]

Delta may provide some stuff to you...the homeowner...but they will not give that stuff away to your plumber.

[geniescience]

this long thread makes me think that Plumbing is a Serious Profession. I think it deserves a special distinction. The trade and professional activity need to be upgraded in the eyes of the general public.

david

[coach606]

I'm a teacher, a profession also badly in need of an upgrade. But I can tell you this, I have great respect for plumbers. It is an educated and skilled profession and you pros command an impressive salary, in my opinion.

As I said earlier, no one would pay me $150 to install a toilet. The people who don't respect plumbers are the same people who don't respect teachers... kids, or ubber rich people. Until you actually have to make it in the world, lots of things look easy, plumbing and teaching included. I can tell you now, being a GOOD teacher is not so easy. I know it looked easy when you were in high school, but it ain't a walk in the park.

I think a lot of people genuinely respect plumbers, more so even than teachers. A lot of people say they respect teachers, but I often feel it's more politically correct than true.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

The only discrepancy is that he thought we'd have to tear thru our wall to replace the 10 yr old Delta Monitor trim (showerhead, neck and lever) in our stand up shower but the Delta helpline said it was not necessary and mentioned that the warranty would provide us a free new set with cartridge for conversion ... hopeful our plumber was just playing it safe in making his judgment...


The only way I can say this possibility arised was out of the fact that you might of wanted a brushed nickel finish which isn't offered on the 600 series model valve. I do believe some company is making an aftermarket, but not Delta.

A good deal of my customers have wanted to do this to update their bathrooms to a more modern look.

[SteveW]

this long thread makes me think that Plumbing is a Serious Profession. I think it deserves a special distinction. The trade and professional activity need to be upgraded in the eyes of the general public.

david


I agree!



Along these lines, here's a book I heard reviewed on the radio. Sounds fascinating:

"Flushed: How the Plumber Saved Civilization"
by W. Hodding Carter

[lpennington]

Delta may provide some stuff to you...the homeowner...but they will not give that stuff away to your plumber.

True true. I would hope that Delta makes such things available to the plumbing profession ... we were about to pay for our wall to get ripped out unnecessarily (plus having to take another say off for the sheetrock person to put the bathroom back together again ).

[lpennington]

I'm a teacher, a profession also badly in need of an upgrade. But I can tell you this, I have great respect for plumbers. It is an educated and skilled profession and you pros command an impressive salary, in my opinion.


I earn my living due to my own expertise and I hate it when people don't value my time etc. I've only owned a home for the 2 yrs I've been out of my residency and my uneducated observations have been that it's hard to distinguish the high level plumbings who are true engineers from the people who shouldn't be allowed to do it at all . . . maybe all states should have their plumbing licenses easily searchable. Vermont's is a piece of cake, Pa isn't if they even make plumbers get licenses. Doesn't solve the societal view issue but it'll lower the supply of plumbers which in turn'll make people appreciate them more and their fees increase...

[Cass]

The truth is that a licence means nothing, it does help with some knowlage. I have done repairs on plumbing that jackleg plumbers have done and that licenced plumbers have done. It all has to do with character. There isn't any reason a jackleg can't do it as well as a licenced plumber except that they both are lazy. 1 doesn't want to take the time to learn how to do it right, the other doesn't want to take the time and/or spend the $$$ needed to do the job right or make that extra trip to get the item he didn't have on the truck.

Then there is the plumbers pipe side manner. That is a discussion for another day.

[lpennington]

Well ... just received word of the estimate for this job (installing 2 new Toto Drakes in a 10 yr old home ... no problems plus changing a showerhead, neck, and plate/trim in shower... no need for tear thru wall w/ the cartridge Delta sent)

and the total was $1150 where our plumbers would purchase the toilets for us but we get the shower pieces. I only priced out the toilets at $650-700. At $60/hr I was trying to figure out where they saw all the time coming from!

Or am I not respecting the complexity of the job? [it was on this board where folks said a toilet install isn't that long of a process]

[master plumber mark]

Just let the man make a living.....for god sakes....

if you are going to " time him " from start to finish

you wont find a lot of plumbers that are going to want to step

foot in your home again.....


Recently I did some work for a customer of mine and quoted them about

$2200 for quite a number of things they wanted done in their house

I showed up like the Normandy Invasion with 4 other fellows and had
all the work completed by noon.....

Then , I get a rather snotty e-mail r asking me to break down my time and materials.... AFTER we had agreed on the price and everything was done......


I sent her a polite letter back apologiseing for getting the work done so

quickly and then asking her if I would have done it all by myself

and taken a few days to do it would she have been happier??

Also if I were to run into some unfor-seen troubles

and it would have taken me another two days to do this work

than I thought it should have ,

would she have been willing to pay me for my extra time and

suffering???????


I got my check a few days later....


Again......let him do his job......for the price quoted

no matter how long it takes him......

[lpennington]

Just let the man make a living.....for god sakes....

Again......let him do his job......for the price quoted

no matter how long it takes him......

my bad ... did I ask anything wrong? I'm a 1st time homeowner. I wanted a reality check on prices. Which is why I asked here in the 1st place and before I asked anything that could've insulted my plumber.

There are plenty of stories about folks getting taken advantage of so you do your homework beforehand. I did the same sort of price checking before I let my wife purchase a washing machine and before buying my car. I was just trying to be a smart consumer not a cheapskate!

[coach606]

If you don't like the price, try another plumber if there's another one you trust to do a good job. Or you can always do it yourself save like 70%.

[lpennington]

I don't know whether to like the price or not ... I just threw as much info out on here to see if several people responded with "that's highway robbery!!" or "that's fair."

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I had a customer call me tonight wanting a price to replace 3 toilets and repair two leaky faucets.

I quoted her $350 to $450 for all of it. She was "shocked" by my quote and made a comment that her husband's friend had come over one time and reset a toilet that only took minutes to reset.

Hrmm.........

Let's see, she is telling me that she paid $188 plus tax for each toilet but expects someone to take 15 minutes to install one? No way.

I didn't budge on my price either and told her that I am going off of an hourly rate times 3 to figure the cost. Told her that there are others that will work cheaper than I but I am thorough and know that surprises come along the way with replacing a toilet like a cracked flange or other issue with flooring dimensions.

She seemed to know her plumbing better than I since she commented that they didn't have any of those issues to worry about. Okie dokie.......I guess I just made up all those circumstances when I told her that didn't I?

I'm thinking she needs a handyman, not a plumber.

I mentioned this because I get this sort of thing from time to time. It was a good referral but I expect my incoming customer base to be realistic with their inquiry to my pricing.

Funny how you can spend over $600 on toilets but want to whittle down what the installer gets to put them in. That's what I get for not letting the phone call go to the answering machine first. :eek: :D

[Cass]

Well ... just received word of the estimate for this job (installing 2 new Toto Drakes in a 10 yr old home ... no problems plus changing a showerhead, neck, and plate/trim in shower... no need for tear thru wall w/ the cartridge Delta sent)

and the total was $1150 where our plumbers would purchase the toilets for us but we get the shower pieces. I only priced out the toilets at $650-700. At $60/hr I was trying to figure out where they saw all the time coming from!

Or am I not respecting the complexity of the job? [it was on this board where folks said a toilet install isn't that long of a process]

Where did you come up with / get the $60.00/Hr.? I haven't been at that low rate for a long time.

[SteveW]

I had a customer call me tonight wanting a price to replace 3 toilets and repair two leaky faucets.

I quoted her $350 to $450 for all of it. She was "shocked" by my quote and made a comment that her husband's friend had come over one time and reset a toilet that only took minutes to reset.

Hrmm.........

....

Funny how you can spend over $600 on toilets but want to whittle down what the installer gets to put them in. That's what I get for not letting the phone call go to the answering machine first. :eek: :D


Speaking purely as a consumer, when I read this I was trying to gauge my reaction to the price quote. My gut feeling was it was VERY reasonable, esp. if you do know a little something about what can and often does go wrong.

Part of the problem, I suspect, is that professionals make jobs look easier than they really are, just because they are so good at doing them, can anticipate bad consequences and take those little extra steps to prevent them, etc.

As we've discussed on this forum, toilet installation is deceptive. Looks pretty easy to the layman, but a lot of stuff can go wrong -- some of it causing major problems way down the road, like if the wax ring doesn't seal AND you caulk completely around the base of the toilet, leading to water damage. Few laymen would anticipate that problem.

[lpennington]

As we've discussed on this forum, toilet installation is deceptive. Looks pretty easy to the layman, but a lot of stuff can go wrong -- some of it causing major problems way down the road, like if the wax ring doesn't seal AND you caulk completely around the base of the toilet, leading to water damage. Few laymen would anticipate that problem.

Very true statement. I didn't know about a fraction of the technical considerations ... That's definitely what made me not use an unlicensed plumber. He sounded like he knew what he was talking about. He was a nice guy etc, but I cannot have my downstairs ceilings destroyed due to a mishap nor would I want two $300 toilets messed up b/c he tightened something too much etc.

[lpennington]

Where did you come up with / get the $60.00/Hr.? I haven't been at that low rate for a long time.

That came from the plumbing's receptionist but it turned out she was mistaken! This morning, I looked at a fax of he quote they'd sent to my office and it had an estimated time figure using $120/hr so she just had something on her mind that day.

Our Drakes and new shower trim should be installed sometime next week!