PDA

View Full Version : New House, Shared Well, Iron and H2S



Twinpeaksr
01-13-2010, 07:36 AM
Been reading through many of the posts out here trying to identify what treatment I need for our new house.

Specifics (from the well company):
- Shared Well drilled in 2003, 5 houses, approx 20GPM in 1" pipe to house from tap on lot
- Well is 860ft deep, 5hp pump, 2 40gal pressure tanks, 2" pipe from well to tap on lot
- biggest issue is H2S smell
- Iron is 2-5ppm
- hardness is 20grain
- No bacteria or nitrates
- Most people on the well are using an Iron Curtian to remove the H2S and Iron followed with as softener

What I am looking for is a good way to address the H2S and Iron (and softening if convienient). I am not sold on the Iron Filter since of the 8 people in the neighborhood I have talked to with them (there are 5 shared wells, all same depth) 7 have had to replace parts on them, or had issues from poor performance, to flooded basements.

So what are my other options? sounds like a softener may be able to take care of the iron and the hardness, but does not sound like it can handle the H2S (or maybe I missread something).

Any help would be great, and Gary, if you have a system that could work, you are on my short list for water treatment equipment supply.

Thanks!

Akpsdvan
01-13-2010, 10:14 AM
How long new is the well?
Has the pump in the well be run for 48 hours at 5 gpm?

Twinpeaksr
01-13-2010, 10:30 AM
The Well was drilled in 2003, less than 7 years old.

The measurements are made annually by the well company as part of the service agreement with the subdivision. If I understand what you are asking, then yes there had been significant flow in the previous 48hrs.

thanks.

Akpsdvan
01-13-2010, 11:50 AM
Not signifacant, continuis flow.
5-7gpm for 48 hours straight.

If the well was drilled and then sat for awhile and has not been used it will change the water test.

The well needs to do what is turn over, pulling water out and that will have New water come into the well.

Twinpeaksr
01-13-2010, 12:10 PM
Well has been in use for several years by the other 3 houses on it. Not sure what you are expecting from this type of test. The annual testing has shown that these values are not varying.

Thanks.

Akpsdvan
01-13-2010, 12:28 PM
Ok, Some times with new wells the values are different from what one might get after useage.
Well Drillers in my area always like to have the well used for a few months (hard) before making the choice as to what kind of equipment to use to clean up the water for inside the house.

Gary Slusser
01-13-2010, 12:39 PM
Specifics (from the well company):
- Shared Well drilled in 2003, 5 houses, approx 20GPM in 1" pipe to house from tap on lot
- Well is 860ft deep, 5hp pump, 2 40gal pressure tanks, 2" pipe from well to tap on lot
- biggest issue is H2S smell
- Iron is 2-5ppm
- hardness is 20grain
- No bacteria or nitrates
- Most people on the well are using an Iron Curtian to remove the H2S and Iron followed with as softener

What I am looking for is a good way to address the H2S and Iron (and softening if convienient).

So what are my other options? sounds like a softener may be able to take care of the iron and the hardness, but does not sound like it can handle the H2S (or maybe I missread something).

Any help would be great, and Gary, if you have a system that could work, you are on my short list for water treatment equipment supply.
I have treated up to 13 ppm of iron with a 'special' softener and up to 5 ppm of iron with a regular softener IF the person will do a quick maintenance thing once a month forever but... you have H2S and no softener will remove it so...

I suggest my inline erosion pellet chlorinator and equivalent 120 gal retention tank followed by a carbon filter with a special carbon. That gets rid of the H2S and all types of bacteria, including all types of reducing bacteria, and means the softener does not have to deal with the iron or H2S.

Twinpeaksr
01-13-2010, 01:33 PM
So if I understand your recommendation:

- Chlorinator
- Carbon Filter
- Softener

Is this the only solution or are their other options?

Sounds like the Chlorinator removes the H2S, is the Carbon Filter removing the Iron? A little unclear on what each step in the system is doing. The softener is obviously doing the hardness.

I see maintainance as:

- Chlorine Addition
- Filter Change
- Softener Salt

What info do you need to identify maintainace timing and use (IE Filter every 3mo, 5lbs chlorine every 4mo, etc...) Just trying to get an idea on maintaince cost and installation cost (we can take this offline if better).

Thanks!

Bob999
01-13-2010, 03:13 PM
Another option would be to use a filox media to remove both the H2S and the iron followed by a softener.

You would need to check the ORP (oxidation reduction potential) of your water and if it is not adequate would need to add an oxidizing feed prior to the filox. Either chlorine or hydrogen peroxide can be used if the addition of an oxidizer is required. The Filox will remove low levels of chlorine so that a carbon filter may not be necessary with this set up.

Here is a link to a description of Filox:

http://www.epsonline.ie/shop/uploads/filtermedia%20-%20filox%20r.pdf

Akpsdvan
01-13-2010, 04:16 PM
What kind of flow rate is needed for the house and another point of use?


What is the gpm of the well pump to the house?

There is another media that might work, but gpm would be the make or brake.

Twinpeaksr
01-13-2010, 04:54 PM
What kind of flow rate is needed for the house and another point of use?


What is the gpm of the well pump to the house?

There is another media that might work, but gpm would be the make or brake.

The Flow rate to the first treatment piece (from the pump) is estimated to be 20GPM by the well company based on me using a 1" pipe. Not sure my flow rate needs for the house (I know that depends on fixtures and many other things), but it will be a 4 bedroom 2.5bath with a whirlpool tub in one of the full baths. future expansion will include 2 additional bedrooms and 1 more full bathroom.

Thanks!

Akpsdvan
01-13-2010, 09:33 PM
Manganese Greensand Filter, 2.0 cubic foot unit for iron and smell followed with a Softener for the Hardness that is in the water.
The 2.0 Greensand filter could handle 10gpm flow rate, if more flow rate is needed through the greensand, double up on it, two filters first in last out.
Softener could be sized for 10gpm with a peak of 15gpm which would be at least 1.5 cubic foot.


That is one of the ways that I might handle this kind of water here.

Twinpeaksr
01-14-2010, 05:38 AM
Sounds like I have 3 possible solutions:

Solution G:
- Chlorinator (H2S and Fe)
- Carbon Filter (Cl)
- Softener (Hardness)

Solution B:
- Iron Media Filter (H2S and Fe)
- Softener (Hardness)

Solution A:
- Manganese Greensand Filter (H2S and Fe)
- Softener (Hardness)

Any thoughts on Pros/Cons for these Systems? I am guessing they all will do the job. What I have So Far:

Solution G:
Pro: Reduction in Water usage since no Iron Filter Backwash needed
Con: Need to replace a Filter, Cl, and NaCl regularly

Solution B:
Pro: Only Need NaCl Regularly
Con: Can take a lot of water to backwash the media (1200gal/3 days based on others experience)

Solution A:
Same as Solution B I think.


Any other info on this? Thanks for the help so far!

~R~

Bob999
01-14-2010, 07:03 AM
I think the carbon filter Gary is recommending is a backwashing filter. You would need to ask him about the backwash requirements. It obviously depends on the size of the filter among other things. Also Carbon filters need to be re-bedded periodically.

I think the backwash requirements for a Filox filter are a bit less than your estimate. A 2 cubic foot unit with a Vortech tank requires 10 gallon per minute backwash with daily backwash required. If the backwash is 8 minutes and settling rinse is 4 minutes that is 120 gallons per day.

Manganese greensand (or Manganese Greensand Plus which has some advantages as compared to traditional Greensand) would typically be regenerated with potassium permanganate which is a poison and really messy. Not something I would chose if there are alternatives.

Twinpeaksr
01-14-2010, 07:34 AM
I think the carbon filter Gary is recommending is a backwashing filter. You would need to ask him about the backwash requirements. It obviously depends on the size of the filter among other things. Also Carbon filters need to be re-bedded periodically.

I think the backwash requirements for a Filox filter are a bit less than your estimate. A 2 cubic foot unit with a Vortech tank requires 10 gallon per minute backwash with daily backwash required. If the backwash is 8 minutes and settling rinse is 4 minutes that is 120 gallons per day.

Manganese greensand (or Manganese Greensand Plus which has some advantages as compared to traditional Greensand) would typically be regenerated with potassium permanganate which is a poison and really messy. Not something I would chose if there are alternatives.

Thanks for the update, good to get clarification. If the Greensand uses KMnO4 I think that one is out, I have worked with that before, with the right second ingreediant it can make a good size bang, also can combust pretty easily.

I think I need more information on the Carbon Filter, soulds like it is not what I thought. I think I am down to Solution B or Solution G.

Thanks!

Gary Slusser
01-14-2010, 11:55 AM
Yes there are many choices of treatment for water containing H2S and iron. IMO my suggestion is best overall but mostly for the minimal maintenance and very wide flexibility built into the system while it gives you bacteria free water while none of the others can.

Yes the carbon filter is automatically backwashed every 3-6 days depending on your water usage, the size of the filter required based on your peak demand flow rate for the house and how much iron the chlorinator has to deal with.

The carbon removes the chlorine and clarifies the water of all the 'dirt' the oxidation part of the chlorination causes. The water used will be less than most if not all other media would require.

To discuss this more you have to call me.

Twinpeaksr
01-14-2010, 05:24 PM
To discuss this more you have to call me.

Thanks for the great conversation today, you definitely know your stuff! As I digest what I have learned, I had one open question:

What are the benefits of the chlorinator/carbon filter over a media based iron filter or an aerator? Always looking to learn something new.

thanks again!

~R~

Akpsdvan
01-14-2010, 07:06 PM
With the chlorinator if it is a dry pellet feeder in the water stream there will be build up of the binder of the chlorine tablets, then changing of the carbon media every X number of years.
Aerator... oh that can and will be a mess... think of it this why, they do work if done right, BUT,, Remember the photos that they show as to why one should eat low fat foods? the build up of Cholesterol in the arteries? or turning 1" pipe to 1/2" pipe with the iron build up..
There are any number of service calls that I do that are on Iron filters that use Air to oxidize the iron... and it can and often is a blood bath.

Bob999
01-15-2010, 06:29 AM
One of the factors to consider with a chlorinator is the ongoing operational costs. Food grade chlorine pellets are a very expensive way to buy chlorine. The actual amount you use will depend on your water, how the system is set up and maintained, etc. but a cost of $150 per year for pellets is a ballpark figure.

If you go with a chlorinator an option is an injection pump and use regular household bleach. The chlorine cost is 1/10 or less (less than $15 per year) of the cost from pellets.

Gary strongly dislikes solution feeders and will give you all the disadvantages.

There was an extensive discussion in this thread on this board:

http://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33701

If you have bacteria problems then chlorination is a very desirable way to go because it deals with the bacteria as well as the iron and H2S. If you don't have a bacteria problem then a filter has a lot less maintenance as compared to either a pellet chlorinator or a solution feeder.

Peter Griffin
01-15-2010, 09:31 AM
Yep, here we go again

canear
01-15-2010, 10:08 AM
Not an expert like the rest of them but we just had chlorine injection put in for sulfur. In fact very high sulfur caused by sulfur bacteria. We chose this system because it seemed that no matter where we went for adivse the concenses was chlorine or peroxide for sulfur bacteria and high sulfur levels. All systems are maintenance, we have had in past houses water softeners, iron filters and in this house filter that uses air... it didn't clog for us but it didn't get rid of the sulfur smell or taste, it did improve it.
The chlorine injection which is followed by retention tank and carbon filter has worked wonders in this house for the first time in 20 years we can actually drink good tasting water. We just had it installed so maybe a year from now I may think differently. So far I haven't had to do anything. It looks like the tank that holds the bleach and water mix, won't have to have any filling ( going by how much it used up so far) for at least a couple of more months. They installed a small hose right after the carbon filter to use for adding the water. Then it is mixing a bottle of bleach to 7 gallons of water. When spring rolls around put a hose on retention tank and flush. Backwashing carbon filter regenerates once a week and carbon will need to be replaced in 3 to 5 years I was told at a cost of $150. Doesn't seem so bad. I understand it is good for iron as well although I can't say we have low iron and didn't need a softener. As I said a year from now I may think differently if there is need for repairs etc. But right now we have clear good tasting water that we can actually drink and doesn't smell for the first time in 20 years.

Just an opinion.

Twinpeaksr
01-15-2010, 10:21 AM
Thanks for all the input. Not looking to debate Bleach injection here, looks like that has been done. Just want so pros/cons of Iron Filter vs Chlorinator.

Looking at what I have seen, it seems the Chlorinator gives the added bonus of taking care of Bacteria, the Well I have has no bacteria and is tested anually for it (never had any issues). So while that is nice, does not do much for me.

Sounds like the Carbon filter is great to take care of many things in the water, but it would not take care of H2S, which is why the Chlorinator would also be needed.

The Iron Filter would take care of the Fe and H2S, but may not be 100% effective with the H2S, also have seen that it takes quite a bit of water to backwash (may be untrue, what I have heard varies by a factor of 10). It does have the plus of not having to add anything (IE Cl).

Any other info I am missing?

Thanks!

~R~

Akpsdvan
01-15-2010, 10:24 AM
It is good to hear from some one that has a system along the lines of what is getting talked about.

Twinpeaksr
01-15-2010, 10:44 AM
It is good to hear from some one that has a system along the lines of what is getting talked about.

I second that!

Akpsdvan
01-15-2010, 11:00 AM
Some thing else that needs to be thought of is "Space for Equipment"

What kind of room is there for holding tanks, pumps, storage tanks, media tanks....

If one has the room then retention tanks with chlorine , ozone are ways, if room is limited then there are other ideas that one is going to have to look into... 1 or 2 pieces of equipment to do the job.

Oh, what is the Ph of the water?

Gary Slusser
01-15-2010, 02:39 PM
Thanks for the great conversation today, you definitely know your stuff! As I digest what I have learned, I had one open question:

What are the benefits of the chlorinator/carbon filter over a media based iron filter or an aerator? Always looking to learn something new.

thanks again! ~R~
Air with an air pump or air injection system should be your last choice. I never sold air injection but have service many and I sold air pumps for years until I found the chlorination system we are discussing here. That was 15 yrs ago.

An iron/H2S filter comes in two versions; backwash only or regenerated with something, usually potassium permanganate but it could be chlorinated water also. For 4-5 yrs I sold many Pyrolox filters regenerated with about 3" of chlorinated water out of a 18 x 33" salt tank. They worked for about 4-6 yrs and then had to be rebeded and people usually went with another choice instead of doing that because of the expense of Pyrolox.

In your case, especially with a potential of varying iron content, the filter will have to be LARGE! (2.5' or larger) and set up for the possible 5 ppm.

And to successfully and consistently backwash or regenerate it over years is probably not going to happen, and then what do you do when it starts failing?

You dump everything and replace the mineral or use a new kind to see how it works or, you start over with a different type of treatment; which more than likely will be chlorination.

Or... since 5 houses are using this well, and each family may have growing children as you do, and maybe more kids (like you want), means more water being pulled out of this community type well.

That means it's more likely that the iron and H2S present today will increase along with bacteria (IRB or SRB) being found eventually.That's why I propose my chlorination system. It works every time and for all future contingencies, has a 21 gpm flow rating, minimal maintenance requirements and takes up no more space than a regenerated filter would.

I and my customers have installed the pellet hopper, mixing tank, carbon filter out in front of the mixing tank and the softener resin tank with the salt tank under the hopper in less than 4.5'-5' along a wall and out from the wall about 20", so it doesn't take much space.

The pellets I use do not have the problems AK mentioned. Yes they cost like $12/month if bought annually but most customers are not buying new pellets every 12 months. The thread at the link Bob posted is showcasing a paranoid young lady's system. It is abnormal and her experience is exaggerated while we were joking.

The carbon lasts for many years (5+) and I've only had 2-3 customers with water leaks have to replace it in less time than that. The carbon is not regular carbon.

Twinpeaksr
01-15-2010, 04:16 PM
Air with an air pump or air injection system should be your last choice. I never sold air injection but have service many and I sold air pumps for years until I found the chlorination system we are discussing here. That was 15 yrs ago.

An iron/H2S filter comes in two versions; backwash only or regenerated with something, usually potassium permanganate but it could be chlorinated water also. For 4-5 yrs I sold many Pyrolox filters regenerated with about 3" of chlorinated water out of a 18 x 33" salt tank. They worked for about 4-6 yrs and then had to be rebeded and people usually went with another choice instead of doing that because of the expense of Pyrolox.

In your case, especially with a potential of varying iron content, the filter will have to be LARGE! (2.5' or larger) and set up for the possible 5 ppm.

And to successfully and consistently backwash or regenerate it over years is probably not going to happen, and then what do you do when it starts failing?

You dump everything and replace the mineral or use a new kind to see how it works or, you start over with a different type of treatment; which more than likely will be chlorination.

Or... since 5 houses are using this well, and each family may have growing children as you do, and maybe more kids (like you want), means more water being pulled out of this community type well.

That means it's more likely that the iron and H2S present today will increase along with bacteria (IRB or SRB) being found eventually.That's why I propose my chlorination system. It works every time and for all future contingencies, has a 21 gpm flow rating, minimal maintenance requirements and takes up no more space than a regenerated filter would.

I and my customers have installed the pellet hopper, mixing tank, carbon filter out in front of the mixing tank and the softener resin tank with the salt tank under the hopper in less than 4.5'-5' along a wall and out from the wall about 20", so it doesn't take much space.

The pellets I use do not have the problems AK mentioned. Yes they cost like $12/month if bought annually but most customers are not buying new pellets every 12 months. The thread at the link Bob posted is showcasing a paranoid young lady's system. It is abnormal and her experience is exaggerated while we were joking.

The carbon lasts for many years (5+) and I've only had 2-3 customers with water leaks have to replace it in less time than that. The carbon is not regular carbon.

That is what I needed to know, thanks again!

Bob999
01-15-2010, 04:23 PM
I want to make clear that I believe that a properly designed and maintained system like the one Gary prefers--pellet chlorination, retention tank, and a properly sized Centaur carbon backwashing filter works with the water condition being discussed in this thread.

In my opinion some of the cost claims are subject to question.

It is true that Iron filter media does sometimes fail--usually because of improper application or improper mainenance--and it is expensive to replace. It is also true that all media will likely have to be replaced at some point in the future even if properly applied and maintained. That is true for Filox as well as for Pyrolox.

However Centaur Carbon is also expensive to replace and it must be replaced on a periodic basis even when the application is proper and it is properly maintained because its capacity to remove chlorine is gradually used up. Centaur carbon, like virtually all media, will fail prematurely if it is not "successfully and consistently" backwashed when in service.

If your application would require a very large iron filter as Gary states then it would also require a very large Centaur carbon filter--the size of the filter is determined by the design flow. A 2 cubic foot Filox filter with Vortech tank will handle a flow of 12 gpm and will backwash with 10 gpm. Perhaps Gary can tell us what size Centaur Carbon filter will handle a flow of 12 gpm and what the backwash rate is on that filter. I hope he will also tell us the size of Centaur carbon filter that will handle the 21 gpm flow that he quotes for his chlorination system!

So my point here is to be careful to do comparisons with full data and if cost is one of the considerations in your decision making then be sure you get good information about all relevant costs before making your decision.

Akpsdvan
01-15-2010, 06:05 PM
But when using a well one also looks to have Turn over with in the well and good runs on the pump that is in the well.

Ask a well driller which is better short runs on pumps and pulling water out of the well or longer runs on the pump and more of a turn over on the water within the well casing.

Gary Slusser
01-16-2010, 11:07 AM
I want to make clear that I believe that a properly designed and maintained system like the one Gary prefers--pellet chlorination, retention tank, and a properly sized Centaur carbon backwashing filter works with the water condition being discussed in this thread.
Yes they do.


In my opinion some of the cost claims are subject to question.

It is true that Iron filter media does sometimes fail--usually because of improper application or improper mainenance--and it is expensive to replace. It is also true that all media will likely have to be replaced at some point in the future even if properly applied and maintained. That is true for Filox as well as for Pyrolox.

However Centaur Carbon is also expensive to replace and it must be replaced on a periodic basis even when the application is proper and it is properly maintained because its capacity to remove chlorine is gradually used up. Centaur carbon, like virtually all media, will fail prematurely if it is not "successfully and consistently" backwashed when in service.

If your application would require a very large iron filter as Gary states then it would also require a very large Centaur carbon filter--the size of the filter is determined by the design flow. A 2 cubic foot Filox filter with Vortech tank will handle a flow of 12 gpm and will backwash with 10 gpm. Perhaps Gary can tell us what size Centaur Carbon filter will handle a flow of 12 gpm and what the backwash rate is on that filter. I hope he will also tell us the size of Centaur carbon filter that will handle the 21 gpm flow that he quotes for his chlorination system!

So my point here is to be careful to do comparisons with full data and if cost is one of the considerations in your decision making then be sure you get good information about all relevant costs before making your decision.
Iron/H2S filter media fails very frequently IMO. That's becasue most of it is very heavy and difficult to backwash properly.

I have already told Twinpeaksr what size filter and softener his house and family require. If you were my prospective customer I would tell you too; you aren't, and it seems you have some need to pick at things I say while I see no need for it.

I mentioned the hopper and mixing tank has a 21 gpm rating. That does not mean the filter or softener requires the same SFR rating. It does mean that a solution feeder system that you have mentioned would require a much larger retention than a 120 gallons or the mixing tank I use and most dealers won't use. And a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly etc..

Yes Centaur is expensive but not the most expensive when compared to a number of iron filter media that will also remove H2S at the flow rates that Twinpeaksr needs. Also, although I am sure some of my customers have had to replace their Centaur by now, they aren't buying it from me or letting me know they have to except the 3-4 that have had water leaks. If I had Centaur listed on my web site maybe I'd know of others.

BTW, the same cuft of most iron/H2S filter media will require a higher backwash gpm and thereby tehy will use more water than the same cuft of Centaur. And that will be true with a Vortech tank (unless of course you want to insure the filter's operation using less water Bob).

Bob999
01-16-2010, 12:53 PM
I have already told Twinpeaksr what size filter and softener his house and family require. If you were my prospective customer I would tell you too; you aren't,

My understanding is that this board is primarily about sharing information and helping posters with questions posted so I am a little puzzled by your response which seems to say I have to buy equipment from you to get answers to questions.

Gary Slusser
01-16-2010, 01:24 PM
My understanding is that this board is primarily about sharing information and helping posters with questions posted so I am a little puzzled by your response which seems to say I have to buy equipment from you to get answers to questions.
Yes it is Bob. And as you should see I answer posters questions in detail and have been for many years. And I've answered more of your questions to me than you answer of my questions to you. Why should I answer you when you refuse to answer me?

I'll ask again, do you sell equipment Bob? Or are you someone that owns some equipment? IOWs, what is your experience in water treatment and why do you care what I tell posters here or what I do or don't say to them?

Or at least answer this... why should I answer your questions to me when you are not looking for advice about your equipment or equipment needs or your water quality problems?

Bob999
01-16-2010, 01:45 PM
Or at least answer this... why should I answer your questions to me when you are not looking for advice about your equipment or equipment needs or your water quality problems?

Out of courtesy and reciprocity.

I answer questions you pose about water treatment and equipment when you are not looking for advice or information about your water quality problems. I do not, however, answer personal questions and I don't ask you personal questions.

Gary Slusser
01-16-2010, 08:23 PM
I answer questions you pose about water treatment and equipment when you are not looking for advice or information about your water quality problems. I do not, however, answer personal questions and I don't ask you personal questions.
You answer questions I pose about water treatment while looking for advice about my water quality problems? Really. Show me one.

Akpsdvan
01-16-2010, 10:13 PM
Part of the challenge is that while that may be some new people here , some of the new people also have 20 years in this fun and crazy world of taking care of water for customers.
Me, I know the area that I live in for the most part but am still to this day coming across new challenges that I have limited or not seen before.
Water out side of where I live ,,, not a clue.. but there are some basics that do work be it here or some place else.

Those of us that have been doing this for years have learned not just what is in books, but field work.. and we like to use what has worked in the past with few problems, those ideas or ways that have more problems we tend to not use unless we truly have to or do not even go there.

Is there a piece of equipment for Every challenge? NO.. are there bad pieces of equipment ? no.. just equipment put on the wrong job.

There are any number that come here with NO IDEA what is going on and are looking for a few clues as to what is going on.. some place other than a sales person coming and painting a blue sky for them..

Years ago I was asked to sell on the web and I said NO... I work only in the area that I live in... and now as part of this form I will continue to do just that... help out when I can with answers if I can, clues if that is all that I can come up with.

Maybe I said it well, maybe I did not , either way so be it..

I will offer my ideas when I can and help when I can.

Peter Griffin
01-17-2010, 04:45 AM
You said that just fine. I don't sell on the web either because I don't need to. We sell plenty around here without having to. But, these days you can pretty much find anything your heart desires out there, it's only a click away. I suspect that most pumps and filters get bought locally though because most folks have no idea how to install one and don't want to be bothered. Gary raises a good point about the BBB though and who do you trust?

Twinpeaksr
01-17-2010, 05:01 AM
As I read through this thread (and others as well) it illustrates the fundamental issue when asking many people for their input on a problem: there is more than one right answer. Akpsdvan stated it, we use what we have found to work through experience, and like a safety net we stick with what we know works.

From the receiving side of the knowledge, I need to inform myself well enough to make a good decision on what will work in my situation based on the pros and cons of the different recommendations from others.

In this case I had 3 recommended system, based on the information from everyone here, I have been able to narrow down to the system that best fits my needs.

Thanks!

Bob999
01-17-2010, 05:50 AM
You answer questions I pose about water treatment while looking for advice about my water quality problems? Really. Show me one.

Gary, Go back and read what I wrote. You have mischacterized it.

Bob999
01-17-2010, 09:10 AM
I mentioned the hopper and mixing tank has a 21 gpm rating. That does not mean the filter or softener requires the same SFR rating. It does mean that a solution feeder system that you have mentioned would require a much larger retention than a 120 gallons or the mixing tank I use and most dealers won't use. And a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly etc.

Gary, I don't understand how you come up with the statement the system would require "a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly".

When I do the calculations for the use of solution with a 15 gallon tank it only needs to be replenished infrequently.

For example, if a household of 5 is assumed and if they use a typical amount of water (60 gal/day/person) then there are 300 gallons per day to treat. If I add 100 gallons per day to do the necessary backwashes on equipment (a generous allowance) then the total water to treat per day is 400 gallons. If I assume that the treatment level is 4 PPM chlorine and use a 5 gal/day Stenner pump and inject the chlorine in front of the pressure tank with a pump that delivers 22 gallons per minute then the amount of solution from the tank per day is less than 9 ounces per day. So if I assume that the solution is made up in 10 gallon quantities the tank will have to be refilled every 142 days. I certainly wouldn't recommend that the solution be made up in such large quantities but it seems to me that the figures demonstrate that a 15 gallon solution tank is very generously sized for a typical home installation.

I also don't understand the basis for your statement that "It does mean that a solution feeder system that you have mentioned would require a much larger retention than a 120 gallons or the mixing tank I use and most dealers won't use."

My understanding is that the size of the retention tank required has nothing to do with the source of the chlorine--that whether it comes from a pellet system or a solution feeder system makes no difference in sizing the retention tank.

Gary Slusser
01-17-2010, 11:14 AM
Gary, I don't understand how you come up with the statement the system would require "a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly".

When I do the calculations for the use of solution with a 15 gallon tank it only needs to be replenished infrequently.

For example, if a household of 5 is assumed and if they use a typical amount of water (60 gal/day/person) then there are 300 gallons per day to treat. If I add 100 gallons per day to do the necessary backwashes on equipment (a generous allowance) then the total water to treat per day is 400 gallons. If I assume that the treatment level is 4 PPM chlorine and use a 5 gal/day Stenner pump and inject the chlorine in front of the pressure tank with a pump that delivers 22 gallons per minute then the amount of solution from the tank per day is less than 9 ounces per day. So if I assume that the solution is made up in 10 gallon quantities the tank will have to be refilled every 142 days. I certainly wouldn't recommend that the solution be made up in such large quantities but it seems to me that the figures demonstrate that a 15 gallon solution tank is very generously sized for a typical home installation.

I also don't understand the basis for your statement that "It does mean that a solution feeder system that you have mentioned would require a much larger retention than a 120 gallons or the mixing tank I use and most dealers won't use."

My understanding is that the size of the retention tank required has nothing to do with the source of the chlorine--that whether it comes from a pellet system or a solution feeder system makes no difference in sizing the retention tank.
You are using book knowledge and attempting to apply it to real world situations without real world experience.

At one time Bob I sold solution feeders and serviced many that other dealers sold. You have one and love it, good for you. I refuse to sell them to my DIY customers because of all my experience with them and people telling me of their problems with one over the 13 yrs I've been been on the internet and in emails.

You are making incorrect assumptions Bob. I don't know what you are oxidizing and/or disinfecting with only 4 ppm of chlorine but you need a least that much or more for each ppm of iron, plus a variable amount for bacteria and then so much for H2S etc..

How are you controlling the solution pump, a flow switch or the well pump pressure switch? And you think that 10 gals will last all but 5 months for a family of 5, go try that with a customer and see how it goes with ever decreasing solution strength. Good luck with that.

I hope that people reading this don't take your figures to heart.

Bob999
01-17-2010, 11:35 AM
You are using book knowledge and attempting to apply it to real world situations without real world experience.

At one time Bob I sold solution feeders and serviced many that other dealers sold. You have one and love it, good for you. I refuse to sell them to my DIY customers because of all my experience with them and people telling me of their problems with one over the 13 yrs I've been been on the internet and in emails.

You are making incorrect assumptions Bob. I don't know what you are oxidizing and/or disinfecting with only 4 ppm of chlorine but you need a least that much or more for each ppm of iron, plus a variable amount for bacteria and then so much for H2S etc..

How are you controlling the solution pump, a flow switch or the well pump pressure switch? And you think that 10 gals will last all but 5 months for a family of 5, go try that with a customer and see how it goes with ever decreasing solution strength. Good luck with that.

I hope that people reading this don't take your figures to heart.

Gary--the 4ppm was an example. Changing the treatment rate within a fairly wide range will not change the conclusion because the treament rate is adjusted by varing the dilution of the chlorine injected in the example i posted. (I.E. so long as the injection pump is a 5 gallon per day pump and the well pump is producing 22 gallons per minute and the daily use is 400 gallons the required injection amount will be slightly less than 9 ounces per day.)

In the example I stated that the chlorine feed was before the pressure tank. As you probably know when the feed is done that way the injection pump is typically controlled with the well pump pressure switch.

I am using verifiable data and well explained calculations to raise questions about the assertions you have made.

I suggest you post your specific assumptions that support the statement you made: "a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly" so that we can deal with facts in this discussion.

Gary Slusser
01-17-2010, 12:31 PM
Gary--the 4ppm was an example. Changing the treatment rate within a fairly wide range will not change the conclusion because the treament rate is adjusted by varing the dilution of the chlorine injected in the example i posted. (I.E. so long as the injection pump is a 5 gallon per day pump and the well pump is producing 22 gallons per minute and the daily use is 400 gallons the required injection amount will be slightly less than 9 ounces per day.)

In the example I stated that the chlorine feed was before the pressure tank. As you probably know when the feed is done that way the injection pump is typically controlled with the well pump pressure switch.

I am using verifiable data and well explained calculations to raise questions about the assertions you have made.

I suggest you post your specific assumptions that support the statement you made: "a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly" so that we can deal with facts in this discussion.
Your whole post was an example based on the 'book' not real world application Bob but no, I didn't see you mention injecting before the well pressure tank. Had I, I would have cautioned you about not doing that. It's a bad idea.

Anyway, changing the "treatment rate" the way you describe it means the customer has to fool around with the solution strength in the solution tank. That adds more volume than your 10 gals Bob.

That's the most common problem and PIA with a solution feeder. And in many cases it's nowhere as simple as adding more bleach or more water.

Once you change the solution strength, you have to retest and possibly adjust either up or down some more but....

You can only test after running enough water to get a current dose (treatment rate) strength, which can be 50-80% of the volume of your retention tank.

And depending on what and how much of it you are using the chlorine for, like iron and manganese with some H2S and/or reducing types of bacteria, you may have to drain all the retention and start over with new solution.

And then still adjust the strength or, the rate of feed but I guess your solution pump may not allow that because it may not have a rate of feed adjustment, I don't know, I just know it is the cheapest pump you could find.

I have been there and done all that Bob and I have helped many people with solution feeders do it, it is why most people that have fooled with one for some time never want another one.

That is why I use my pellet chlorinator instead of a solution feeder.

Akpsdvan
01-17-2010, 12:44 PM
Which Pellet chlorinator is it that you use?