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Cass
12-19-2009, 05:12 AM
Here is the problem with "Global Warming" why Governments want control of it and why once Governments can tax it, both the control and taxation will never ever go away...


The reason is simple...

regardless of what happens the Government will always have a reason to tax you for it...

Example..

They implement their plan and the temps keep going up...they will just say "we need to do more"....

They implement their plan and the temps fall...they will say "see it worked and we need to keep doing what we are doing"...

It is a Catch 22

The problem is that there is no way to prove if anything they do is causing the results they are seeing...it is imposable to know...

It is a Socialistic World Government or Local Governments Dream...and if they ever declare carbon dioxide a controlled gas then they will be able to control every aspect of your life because that is what you exhale...

This all goes back to my statement that I would like to see provable science, not just temperature records, that shows the cause of "Global Warming"...I guess it would be to much to ask...and to reasonable...

Peter Griffin
12-19-2009, 06:39 AM
It was 17 below last night, bring on all the damn global warming you can and do it now.

If you will excuse me I'm going outside now to start every engine I own and see if I can get my carbon emmissions up. :D

frenchie
12-19-2009, 03:23 PM
Here is the problem with "Global Warming" why Governments want control of it and why once Governments can tax it, both the control and taxation will never ever go away...


The reason is simple...

regardless of what happens the Government will always have a reason to tax you for it...

Example..

They implement their plan and the temps keep going up...they will just say "we need to do more"....

They implement their plan and the temps fall...they will say "see it worked and we need to keep doing what we are doing"...

It is a Catch 22

The problem is that there is no way to prove if anything they do is causing the results they are seeing...it is imposable to know...

It is a Socialistic World Government or Local Governments Dream...and if they ever declare carbon dioxide a controlled gas then they will be able to control every aspect of your life because that is what you exhale...

This all goes back to my statement that I would like to see provable science, not just temperature records, that shows the cause of "Global Warming"...I guess it would be to much to ask...and to reasonable...

Define "proveable science". The way you seem to be using the word... they haven't "proven" the law of gravitational attraction yet: it's just the explanation that best fits the observable data / historical record.

Cass
12-20-2009, 07:12 AM
Compairing the gravational pull of the earth and climate change is like compairing water pouring out of a glass every time you pour it and the weather...

To prove the cause of climate change you have to eliminate all other possible causes so there is only one or several reasons left and you have to know exactly what every other causes could possibly be first before you can do that...that would leave you with the exact cause ...then you can work on a possible cure for the preceived problem...then again there may not be any way to solve the problem...that is what needs to be done

I am saying there are to many variables to be certain as to the exact cause...no one can know at this time...we don't have enough understanding of how the earth works...we don't even know if we know all that we need to know to do anything...new discoveries are made each year about things we had no idea existed that impact the way we understand how things work.....

just like when they thought the earth was flat and that the earth was the center of the universe and every thing revolved around it...

Cass
12-20-2009, 10:47 AM
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/12/greenhouse_gas_observatories_d.html

frenchie
12-20-2009, 12:53 PM
You get your science informationg from American Thinker?

Oh...

This discussion is probably kind of pointless, then.



I didn't compare gravity to AWG. I asked you to clarify what you mean by "proveable science".

I never said - and I don't believe any reputable scientist has ever claimed - that anthropogenic C02 is the only factor driving global warming. Or even that we understand all the factors involved. Straw man, much?

Not knowing everything, is not the same as no knowing anything. You guys want to pretend that there's no warming taking place, that we don't have a clue about what might be causing it, that there's no basis for the AGW hypothesis. That just ain't so. Some things have been ruled out; some things seem to have only a minor effect, some things seem to have a major driving effect.

Cass
12-24-2009, 05:05 AM
I would like to see temp charts that go back more than 150 years...like maybe a few thousand years at least...

those might tell us something...150 years or so of temp records is meaningless...

frenchie
12-24-2009, 06:27 AM
Uh, okay:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/63/Co2-temperature-plot.svg/720px-Co2-temperature-plot.svg.png

Ian Gills
12-24-2009, 06:49 AM
Right, let's break this down for Cass because he clearly has trouble understanding the problem.

How can we be sure the world is really warming?

Even Conservative "victims" can't fake spring coming earlier, or trees growing higher up the sides of mountains or glaciers retreating or Arctic ice disappearing or Alaskan permafrost melting or the tropics expanding or ice shelves breaking up or sea levels rising faster and faster. There are thousands of similar examples around the world. None of these observations by themselves proves the world is warming. But put all the data together and you have overwhelming evidence of a long-term warming trend - even without the temperature records kindly compiled by Master Plumber Mark.

How do we know greenhouse gases are the main cause?

Conservative "victims" are not clear, but the physics is. Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, greenhouse gases warm the atmosphere, and CO2 is accumulating in the atmosphere. Other Conservative explanations have been ruled out, using a combination of modeling studies and observation. Direct measuresments since the 1970s prove the recent warming is not due to changes in solar activity, for instance.

Cass
12-25-2009, 12:51 PM
OK Frenchie...where did the record you posted come from...and how did who ever created it arrive at the conclusion...

frenchie
12-25-2009, 12:56 PM
Vladivostok ice cores data.

Same source the doubters use, to point out that CO2 changes lag temperature changes by an average of about 800 years.

Cass
12-25-2009, 02:07 PM
http://www.climate-skeptic.com/phoenix

Cookie
12-25-2009, 03:47 PM
;)

Kitten boom litters sheltersMild weather in early winter meant more cats outdoors, more frisky antics, and a population explosion in the GTACarola Vyhnak
Staff reporter Published On Fri Mar 9 2007EmailPrintRepublishReport an errorShare Share ArticleAds by Google


It's raining cats and climate change is to blame.

Milder weather in cold seasons means cats are outdoors more, doing what comes naturally, say animal workers on the frontlines. The result is a population explosion that's stretching GTA pounds and shelters beyond their limits.

"We've been racking our brains to figure out why we're seeing more cats in January and February," says Lee Oliver, spokesperson for the Toronto Humane Society. "Now we realize the spike in kittens and strays is because of the weather."

They can't keep up with the influx.

"Every time we adopt out two cats, we get three strays in. It's like we get a cat and a half back for each adoption."

It's a trend that's developed over the past two or three years, said Kathy Duncan, manager of animal services for Oshawa.

"When I came here 17 years ago, there was a clear breeding pattern of litters in spring and late summer/early fall. But now kittens are arriving much earlier. We're seeing newborns in January."

"We're full and we're constantly full," Duncan said of Oshawa's Farewell St. pound, which is designed for 60 cats but has housed up to 120.

Cat owners let their pets outside when it's mild and keep them indoors when it's cold. So the moderate temperatures of recent fall and early winter seasons translates into more opportunities to breed and wander off. (A similar trend hasn't occurred with dogs because their owners usually keep them under control.)

Female cats come into heat every few weeks until they mate and can become pregnant again even if they're nursing kittens. With a gestation period of about two months, a cat could potentially have as many as three litters a year.

Feral cats that live outside on their own are also adding to the numbers, Oliver said. Their lifespan is usually three to four years but when the weather is less harsh, they live longer and breed more, he said.

The Humane Society of Durham Region is also seeing evidence of cats multiplying faster.

"We had cats still giving birth at Christmas. People were letting them go out because it was mild," said manager Ruby Richards.

The society, which only takes in strays that are in distress or at risk, had 160 cats – triple the capacity – at its Oshawa headquarters in January. Overcrowding led to the deaths of 20 cats from viruses that got out of control, Richards said.

Being constantly full not only puts a huge strain on staff and resources, it means there's no downtime to adopt out animals in preparation for the spring baby boom.

The Toronto Humane Society, which can house 400 cats at its River St. shelter, held a special adoption campaign before Christmas in a desperate bid to get the numbers down. It was a wild success but now they're back up to 425 cats – "really high for us," said Oliver.

They're holding a pet giveaway over March break to ease the crunch again.

Animal workers point out that irresponsible pet owners are also to blame for the kitten boom.

"People are taking in cats they can't afford," said Richards. "And unbelievably, we still see people who say, `I want my kids to witness birth,' so they let their cat have a litter."

Males should be neutered, females should be spayed and unaltered cats should be kept indoors, she said.

Don't get a cat if you can't afford the vet bills, Richards advises, quoting rates of $200 to $300 for spaying and about $50 less for neutering. On top of that, three sets of shots at $65 to $85 per set are required.

Pets should also wear identification and be microchipped, animal workers say.

The results of irresponsible pet ownership are not pretty, Richards points out.

"We've just had two cats come in with frostbite that are about to lose their ears. One of them, Gabrielle, didn't know how to fend for herself and she nearly froze and starved to death."

Other casualties include cats that are hit by cars or attacked by dogs, she said.

Duncan deplores the "disposable" attitude toward cats. Less than 3 per cent that end up in Oshawa's pound are claimed, she said.

The growing population means more animals have to be euthanized because there aren't enough adoptive homes to go around. "And when there's a choice of 8-week-old kittens versus adult cats, most people want the kittens."

Cookie
12-25-2009, 04:01 PM
Global warming link to kidney stones
ANI 15 May 2008, 06:58pm ISTText Size:|
WASHINGTON: Global warming may lead to an increase in kidney stones disease, says a new study.





Dehydration has been linked to stone disease, mainly in warmer climates, and global warming will worsen this effect, according to the researchers.

As a result, the prevalence of stone disease may increase, along with the costs of treating the condition.

Using published data to determine the temperature-dependence of stone disease, researchers applied predictions of temperature increase to determine the impact of global warming on the incidence and cost of stone disease in the United States.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change indicates a 1-20 C increase in temperature by 2050 for much of the United States. These findings place a greater significance on the harmful effects of global warming, an ongoing economic and political issue.

The southern United States is considered "the stone belt" because these states have higher incidences of kidney stones. Rising global temperatures could expand this region; the fraction of the US population living in high-risk stone zones is predicted to grow from 40 per cent in 2000 to 50 per cent by 2050.

This could lead to an increase of one to two million lifetime cases of stone disease. The impact of climate-related changes in stone disease will be non-uniformly distributed and likely concentrated in the southern half of the country (linear model) or upper Midwest (non-linear model).

The cost associated with treating stone disease could climb as high as one 1 billion dollars annually by 2050, representing a 10-20 per cent increase over present-day estimates.

Cookie
12-25-2009, 04:05 PM
and, my favorite.

http://www.brainbasedbusiness.com/2007/03/expect_smaller_brains.html

Dunbar Plumbing
12-25-2009, 09:18 PM
I love this time of the year because all the rich foods make ya look forward to what your farts are going to smell like!

I created a lot of global warming in the past 48 hours, more to come...

Cookie
12-26-2009, 05:20 AM
Chilii dogs too? ;)

Cass
12-26-2009, 05:26 AM
Beautiful......

Ian will now have something to complain about...that he doesn't understand....


I love this time of the year because all the rich foods make ya look forward to what your farts are going to smell like!

I created a lot of global warming in the past 48 hours, more to come...

Cass
12-26-2009, 05:42 AM
Like I said Frenchie...I never said it wasn't getting warm I just don't believe it is from human generated CO2...there is no way to eliminate the things in the past that have caused warming periods in the past before humans started adding to what was already there / happening...



I need to know from you if Scientists around the world know all and everything about what, how, and why the earths air, land, and sea temps to go up and down and how they affect each other over thousands of years...

Ian Gills
12-26-2009, 06:08 AM
I need to know from you if Scientists around the world know all and everything about what, how, and why the earths air, land, and sea temps to go up and down and how they affect each other over thousands of years...


Is that really what it will take to tax you guys? My God, you really don't like paying taxes do you.

Scuba_Dave
12-26-2009, 07:30 AM
Uh, okay:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/63/Co2-temperature-plot.svg/720px-Co2-temperature-plot.svg.png

So based on the chart there was another civilized Human race over 100,000 years ago that caused global warming that killed them off ;)

The chart, if correct, does show that we have had the largest spike in CO2
Caused by the human race

Cookie
12-26-2009, 07:44 AM
Is that really what it will take to tax you guys? My God, you really don't like paying taxes do you.

I think most of us have no trouble paying taxes if the govn would have some common sense in doing so. I am happy at working and struggling, I wish it weren't for daily essentals though. And, when the govn taxes someone comparatively the same way the govn taxes the people born with money or ( is wealthy), which makes more money and lives a life of ease then it becomes unfair.

As much as the people with mega bucks don't like to hear this they need to be taxed accordingly to the ratio where it equals mine. They need to feel the brunt of it like I do. Or most commoners. But they don't. The rich so to speak, just complains because it becomes less money to make money from while the little people loses the money to pay bills, buy food, and to live day by day.

So in answer to your question there it is. You and all others can disagree but that is my viewpoint. Tax the people with money more than enough money, til it hurts like it does most American everyday citizens, make it fair to us.

Tax them until, they squeal. Tax them until it hurts, until, they come down a rung or 6. Here is a novel idea tax them until, they are one of us. They should be absorbing most of the bill to which taxes do their work.

Let the rest of us who live day by day be able to breathe once a while. I have no problem paying taxes to help those who need it but I do not want to support the wealthy.

frenchie
12-26-2009, 01:05 PM
Like I said Frenchie...I never said it wasn't getting warm I just don't believe it is from human generated CO2...there is no way to eliminate the things in the past that have caused warming periods in the past before humans started adding to what was already there / happening...



I need to know from you if Scientists around the world know all and everything about what, how, and why the earths air, land, and sea temps to go up and down and how they affect each other over thousands of years...

No, of course not. I don't think you'll find any scientists claiming it, either. That's just not how science works.

frenchie
12-26-2009, 01:07 PM
So based on the chart there was another civilized Human race over 100,000 years ago that caused global warming that killed them off ;)

Howzzat?


The chart, if correct, does show that we have had the largest spike in CO2
Caused by the human race

Yup.

Cass
12-26-2009, 01:46 PM
No, of course not. I don't think you'll find any scientists claiming it, either. That's just not how science works.

Then there is no way any Scientist can know if, how, and to what degree CO2 affects climate....Thats exactly how Science works...You have to know how every thing works in Concert and only then can you determine the degree, if there even is one, to which adding CO2 to what is already there affects climate...

Dunbar Plumbing
12-26-2009, 01:57 PM
Beautiful......

Ian will now have something to complain about...that he doesn't understand....



It's been pretty rough here at the Dunbar household.


Brought in air blowers and oxygen tanks to get through the next 36 hours, hoping it will end.

Even my dog is having a go at it. I fed him too much turkey and forgot how he can crank em out when he's working on the cleanout phase. :p

Cass
12-26-2009, 02:06 PM
My cats can do a wonderful job at it also...


the EPA just left here...they were investigating an Air Quality Complaint...

and the Global Warming Protestors are starting to show up now....

frenchie
12-26-2009, 04:07 PM
Then there is no way any Scientist can know if, how, and to what degree CO2 affects climate... Thats exactly how Science works... You have to know how every thing works in Concert and only then can you determine the degree, if there even is one, to which adding CO2 to what is already there affects climate...

No, that's NOT how science works (http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/1122science3.html#CERTAINTY)!

"I don't know everything" is not the same thing as "I don't know anything". You don't have to wait until you understand everything, to say something about the parts you do understand.


Newtonian physics, for example, is incomplete. It can't explain Mercury's orbit. It can't explain the way light bends when passing a large object. It can't explain a whole lot of other things... but it's accurate enough for designing & making internal combustion engines, bridges, trains, automobiles, roads, highrise buildings, and so on.


Another example: is light a particle, or a wave? Do we have to wait until we know for sure which it is, before making light bulbs & lasers & cameras & light sensors & so on? Of course not.


People have been breeding animals & plants for millenia - without understanding exactly how genes work, or even knowing there was such a things as DNA.

Cookie
12-27-2009, 06:03 AM
My cats can do a wonderful job at it also...


the EPA just left here...they were investigating an Air Quality Complaint...

and the Global Warming Protestors are starting to show up now....

Are we talking Arkansaw steamers here? lol.

Redwood
12-27-2009, 06:59 AM
Are we talking Arkansaw steamers here? lol.

Prolly more like a Chihuahua Skidder.... :eek:

kpierce
12-27-2009, 07:59 AM
Is that really what it will take to tax you guys? My God, you really don't like paying taxes do you.

While Iím unqualified to contribute any worthwhile plumbing opinions or, for that matter, any worthwhile information about global warming, I feel a need to respond to this question.

No, I really donít like paying taxes and I canít understand why anyone would.

Thank you all for the lively discussion.

Cass
12-27-2009, 10:39 AM
No, that's NOT how science works (http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/1122science3.html#CERTAINTY)!

"I don't know everything" is not the same thing as "I don't know anything". You don't have to wait until you understand everything, to say something about the parts you do understand.


Newtonian physics, for example, is incomplete. It can't explain Mercury's orbit. It can't explain the way light bends when passing a large object. It can't explain a whole lot of other things... but it's accurate enough for designing & making internal combustion engines, bridges, trains, automobiles, roads, highrise buildings, and so on.


Another example: is light a particle, or a wave? Do we have to wait until we know for sure which it is, before making light bulbs & lasers & cameras & light sensors & so on? Of course not.


People have been breeding animals & plants for millenia - without understanding exactly how genes work, or even knowing there was such a things as DNA.

Your right...but you are compairing things we have a lot of knowlege about to something that we are just in our infancy as far as learning...so tell me, in regards to the climate...that you admit we know very little about...in fact don't even know exactly how or what causes the normal fluctuations over thousands of years...
how we know anything we do will work and how we can measure the response to what ever it is that we do...and determine that the response is from what we did and not a normal reaction that was going to happen regardless...

If we can't do that then we have no business spending $$$ doing anything...we need to wait till we have more knowlege...

What large steps in understanding global weather / climate effects have we made in the past 50-100 years

Like said before the temp is rising on other planets at about the same rate it is here...how do we know what ever is causing that is causing it here also...we just don't know enough...

BTW...Yes that is how Science works...thats why things scientists hold true sometimes change making them wrong in the past...not enough info...and thats why there are enough scientists now who will say we don't have enough knowlege about the climate to do anything at this time...

frenchie
12-27-2009, 12:59 PM
Your right...but you are compairing things we have a lot of knowlege about to something that we are just in our infancy as far as learning...so tell me, in regards to the climate...that you admit we know very little about...in fact don't even know exactly how or what causes the normal fluctuations over thousands of years...
how we know anything we do will work and how we can measure the response to what ever it is that we do...and determine that the response is from what we did and not a normal reaction that was going to happen regardless...

If we can't do that then we have no business spending $$$ doing anything...we need to wait till we have more knowlege...

What large steps in understanding global weather / climate effects have we made in the past 50-100 years

Like said before the temp is rising on other planets at about the same rate it is here...how do we know what ever is causing that is causing it here also...we just don't know enough...


This is what I meant, about trying to get your science from political blogs.

Only a half-dozen of the planets & moons seem to be warming - not all, or even most. And the causes are, in fact, pretty well understood for each of those cases.

Start with the most blatant example: Neptune, is simply closer to the sun than it was 30 years ago. (FYI, orbits are elliptical, not round; and Neptune takes 164 years to go 'round once).

Triton, is in the midst of it's southern-hemisphere summer, which puts the darkest part of the planet inline with the sun, you're familiar with the concept of albedo, right?

Mars had a huge dust-storm in 2007, it's normal & expected that it warms up then.

Jupiter, isn't warming overall, near as we can tell, it's warming near its equator while cooling at its poles.

Pluto, is the only real head-scratcher - it's currently moving farther away from the sun (on its normal elliptical orbit), yet it seems to have warmed a few degrees, in the 14 years since we last checked. Nobody really knows why. But then I'm not sure what the confidence interval is on those measurements, in the first place. (Pluto is FAR, too far for the Hubble even to see its face, so we don't actually know much about it.)

There's another huge weakness in that line of argument - which BTW I've yet to see any serious scientist espouse - we do have very accurate measurements on solar activity. To the extent that solar activity drives climate (and it does, for earth they figure it's about 0.5 to 1.5%), the drivers have all been going the other way for the last 20 years. If it was solar activity, we'd be cooling by now; and we're not.

Cass
12-28-2009, 04:49 AM
This is what I meant, about trying to get your science from political blogs.

Only a half-dozen of the planets & moons seem to be warming - not all, or even most. And the causes are, in fact, pretty well understood for each of those cases.

Start with the most blatant example: Neptune, is simply closer to the sun than it was 30 years ago. (FYI, orbits are elliptical, not round; and Neptune takes 164 years to go 'round once).

Triton, is in the midst of it's southern-hemisphere summer, which puts the darkest part of the planet inline with the sun, you're familiar with the concept of albedo, right?

Mars had a huge dust-storm in 2007, it's normal & expected that it warms up then.

Jupiter, isn't warming overall, near as we can tell, it's warming near its equator while cooling at its poles.

Pluto, is the only real head-scratcher - it's currently moving farther away from the sun (on its normal elliptical orbit), yet it seems to have warmed a few degrees, in the 14 years since we last checked. Nobody really knows why. But then I'm not sure what the confidence interval is on those measurements, in the first place. (Pluto is FAR, too far for the Hubble even to see its face, so we don't actually know much about it.)

There's another huge weakness in that line of argument - which BTW I've yet to see any serious scientist espouse - we do have very accurate measurements on solar activity. To the extent that solar activity drives climate (and it does, for earth they figure it's about 0.5 to 1.5%), the drivers have all been going the other way for the last 20 years. If it was solar activity, we'd be cooling by now; and we're not.

And we still don't know enough about the planet we live on as far as climate goes....man has for thousands of years wanted to control the weather...and it seems that we still do...

All this political desire to "do something about global warming" has nothing to do with the climate...just follow the money...it is about control, power, and wealth...nothing more.

Infact most of the scientists who are "sounding the alarm" stand to lose millions and millions of $$$ in grant money if they couldn't show it was happening...

I haven't heard your answer to....

how will we know anything we do will work and how we can measure the response to what ever it is that we do...and determine that the response is from what we did and not a normal reaction that was going to happen regardless...

Ian Gills
12-28-2009, 12:54 PM
All this political desire to "do something about global warming" has nothing to do with the climate...just follow the money...it is about control, power, and wealth...nothing more.

It's nothing at all to do with that.

It is a little bit about blaming the Americans though.

That's always fun.

Cass
12-30-2009, 05:37 AM
It's nothing at all to do with that.

It is a little bit about blaming the Americans though.

That's always fun.

If you truly think it has nothing to do with control, power, and wealth...

then you know less about the history of American politics than I originally thought...and you truly are ignorant about such matters...

On the other hand your remark may just be to get a rise from someone....it is hard to tell which...your camouflage is good...

Ian Gills
12-30-2009, 08:29 AM
control, power, and wealth...

Everything has to do with that which is why nothing is being done about global warming Cass.

Wealthy Americans who like their cars too much do not want to pay more for their gas.

Large corporations can only buy so many political favors with their campaign contributions. If the public is up in arms, voters always win.

And $4/gallon gas would have most Conservatives up in arms.

Poor Conservative "victims" who think they "deserve" the right to drive to work.

Buy a diesel. Or better yet, take the bus.

Your "freedom" is damaging my planet. So get over it.

Besides, some nice energy taxes would be a good way of paying for your desperately needed healthcare reforms while narrowing the budget deficit.

Which would mean less environmental problems for your kids to sort out and less debt too.

It's all about America's children. You just gotta love 'em.

Scuba_Dave
12-30-2009, 09:50 AM
MA, like CA adopted strict emissions standards (2004), which diesel passenger vehicles fail
So they are not sold (or were not) as new cars here
So only used for sale....dunno why used older models are OK ??

I'm not wealthy......and I do Not want to pay more for gas
How about you pay $1-2 more per gallon to make you feel better & I get that as a discount on what I buy ?

Ian Gills
12-30-2009, 10:12 AM
Poor people should buy smaller cars if they cannot afford to drive big ones.

Scuba_Dave
12-30-2009, 12:12 PM
Poor people can't afford to buy cars
That's crazy !!
The American Govt should step in & give them cars

Ian Gills
12-30-2009, 12:26 PM
We need more Public Transport Dave, not PUBLIC Transport.

God I love this country. It just needs a bigger Government doing things Governments should do.

And I love Americans. I just wish more of them would step up and become Federal employees. It takes a special kind of person to do ones duty for the country and work for the Federal Government.

Now if we could just get those pesky volunteer firefighters to join up, we might be on to something.

I think an ex-volunteer would make a great member of staff in the Commodity Futures Trading Commission or the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.

Scuba_Dave
12-30-2009, 04:23 PM
We ARE Americans !!
We deserve BIG GAS guzzling VEHICLES !!
We earned that right in 2 WW's
A Hummer in every HOME !! ;)
England & Europe are so small, they don't need cars
People over there should just walk every where & leave the gas for us

Ian Gills
12-30-2009, 06:02 PM
People over there should just walk every where & leave the gas for us

We already do, and you already have it.

That's the problem! Stop warming up my lawn with your F150s!

Redwood
12-31-2009, 05:29 AM
We need more Public Transport Dave, not PUBLIC Transport.

God I love this country. It just needs a bigger Government doing things Governments should do.

And I love Americans. I just wish more of them would step up and become Federal employees. It takes a special kind of person to do ones duty for the country and work for the Federal Government.

Now if we could just get those pesky volunteer firefighters to join up, we might be on to something.

I think an ex-volunteer would make a great member of staff in the Commodity Futures Trading Commission or the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.

I think you are right Ian...
If your property catches on fire the volunteer firefighters should take a bus to get there.... :D

Cass
12-31-2009, 05:39 AM
Ian...be glad you don't live in Chicago (Obama Land)...in some places there you pay a fee every year for fire protection...and there have been cases when the FD was called out only to find out the people didn't pay there bill and they let the house burn down...

Cass
12-31-2009, 05:49 AM
And $4/gallon gas would have most Conservatives up in arms.

Poor Conservative "victims" who think they "deserve" the right to drive to work.



Well then I should start paying $25.00/Gal., instead of $4.00, so they can have even more money to fix the planet and then when I come to your house to do plumbing it will be $600.00 for the first Hr. to walk through the door...and you can be the first one walking, instead of driving, as an example to others as to what everyone should be doing...

When they see you doing this the World will all follow your leed...

I wonder what my carbon footprint will be when I make my Scotch Eggs...:rolleyes:

Ian Gills
12-31-2009, 10:01 AM
How about you pay $1-2 more per gallon to make you feel better & I get that as a discount on what I buy ?



and you can be the first one walking, instead of driving, as an example to others as to what everyone should be doing...


When will you guys get it? Global warming is not about "choices" or "freedom to make your own decisions". It's about the need for regulation forcing you to do something because you don't get the big picture and your choices hurt others.

Just like healthcare. It's not about whether you decide to give to charities and churches or not. Government needs to take tax from you and provide regardless.

Choice doesn't work on its own. Freedom doesn't work on its own. Reagan got it wrong. Because the market fails, Government and regulation are also needed. Or did you just sleep through the financial crisis?

And I already do pay $600.00 for the first Hr for my plumbing (well, $500 if the truth be told) which is why I started to DIY and visit this Merry site.

Plus, if I don't have to call you out in the van that does my bit for the environment too!

frenchie
12-31-2009, 10:22 AM
Ian...be glad you don't live in Chicago (Obama Land)...in some places there you pay a fee every year for fire protection...and there have been cases when the FD was called out only to find out the people didn't pay there bill and they let the house burn down...

The still have private fire departments in chi-town? Wow, I'm used to using those as a historical example of why some stuff needs to be government-run...

Scuba_Dave
12-31-2009, 11:39 AM
We already do, and you already have it.

That's the problem! Stop warming up my lawn with your F150s!

How many miles ayear do you/wife drive ?

What vehicle(s) do you own ?

Ian Gills
12-31-2009, 12:14 PM
We drive about 6000 miles a year and prefer to use public transport.

We drive a 2000 Rav4. It has a 2 liter engine and on a good day will do close to 30 miles to the gallon.

You can take home drywall in it, if you know a trick or two.

Scuba_Dave
12-31-2009, 01:50 PM
We looked at the RAV4, nice vehicle - a friend owns one
I drive less then 3500 miles year
It was kind of funny another site I was on a guy was ranting & raving about people driving big trucks
He owned a Prius & drove 25,000+ miles a year
I pointed out that even with his gas efficient vehicle he used almost 2x the gas that I used

Ian Gills
01-05-2010, 01:33 PM
Stop driving your big cars now! My island is sinking!

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/uk/heavy+snow+hits+uk+roads+airports+and+schools/3488847

Scuba_Dave
01-05-2010, 06:07 PM
Must be all those obese people
Or its overpopulated

Cass
01-21-2010, 05:33 AM
Still haven't seen any Scientific Proof of the cause of Global Warming....

Dunbar Plumbing
01-21-2010, 08:59 AM
I hope it gets so hot in my area that it literally burns the hair off my skull.

I won't hold my breath on that, and for those with no amount of age behind them...where was this nonsense back in the 50's, 60's, 70's...the 80's when 100 degree temperatures were the norm in my area and above that in florida, years ago.


HMMMMMMM????


Why wasn't that global warming then? HMMMMM???

Scuba_Dave
01-21-2010, 06:10 PM
New Yorkers aren't worried
They will just use the upper floors of buldings

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2009/03/globalscarecity.jpg

http://www.groovygreen.com/groove/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/global-warming-pool.jpg

Ian Gills
01-21-2010, 06:51 PM
Still haven't seen any Scientific Proof of the cause of Global Warming....

Nor I for the existence of God. That doesn't mean it is not real.

Or perhaps it does?

Close the churches. Convert them into apartments.

And start up the cars.

At least we've established scientifically that the Earth was not created in seven days. And that the dinosaurs existed. And that man descended from a common ancestor with the apes. I keep meeting people here that even doubt those things.

We owe a great deal to science. Else all we'd know would be the preachers' teachings. And perhaps, even, global warming.

Dunbar Plumbing
01-21-2010, 07:40 PM
:cool:Wow Scuba Dave....


how is that water so pretty clear blue...?

I thinks your name has photoshopped untruths of purity of water. Stop!!:cool:

Cass
01-23-2010, 06:52 AM
And start up the cars.

At least we've established scientifically that the Earth was not created in seven days. And that the dinosaurs existed. And that man descended from a common ancestor with the apes. I keep meeting people here that even doubt those things.



I would love to see the "Established Scientific Proof" of ancestry from apes...You can PM me if you like...

Cookie
01-23-2010, 07:13 AM
The Limbic System. ( plus I watched Planet of the Apes) :)

Mattb
01-27-2010, 07:23 AM
Still haven't seen any Scientific Proof of the cause of Global Warming....

Well, this seems to do it for all too many:

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/3715/algoreprophetofdoom.jpg (http://img40.imageshack.us/i/algoreprophetofdoom.jpg/)

Cass
02-05-2010, 05:11 AM
Ian...all my driving and burning trash is paying off...your supposed to maybe get 20" of the white stuff...

I like it...

Ian Gills
02-06-2010, 12:05 PM
Yes, it does look like Cass has been driving again. We've got over 2 feet of the white stuff at home. Fortunately (or perhaps not) I am currently not in DC. I am in Cape Town for work at the moment: temperature 75 degrees and getting hotter.

I have not been on the forum much recently because of this. Also, because of all my DIY at home I have neglected the car. So for a few more weeks I'll be over at my car forum.

When I am back in the US I will be:

i) changing my brake lines
ii) changing my drums, shoes and cylinders
iii) changing the oil in the front and rear diffs.

If my car still exists with all this snow of course.

Dirty Cass. Godless Conservatives and their filthy driving habits.

Redwood
02-06-2010, 12:09 PM
Hopefully some of it is still there for you to dig out when you get back...;)

It went out to sea and missed us entirely...:cool:

Cass
02-06-2010, 01:13 PM
I think it was more the trash I was burning than the driving...Now Ian...where have you ever heard of a Godless Conservative...

Cass
02-08-2010, 04:24 AM
Caution...Caution...Global Warming is coming...


I have snow shovels for sale if anyone needs them...

This is what to look for to tell if Global Warming is headed your way....

http://www.stuffintheair.com/images/SnowdriftBank.jpg (http://www.stuffintheair.com/snowpictures.html)

Cass
02-09-2010, 06:23 AM
I can't beleive how hot it is getting...there is another snow storm coming....

Mattb
02-09-2010, 07:26 AM
I can't beleive how hot it is getting...there is another snow storm coming....

Not looking forward to another storm after over 2 feet of snow the other day.

Btw isn't it "Climate Change" now?

Mattb
02-09-2010, 07:29 AM
Here you go, the most famous alarmist!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rpiegz3et3E/S24l5q6s4vI/AAAAAAAAALw/0vI9Hdlr-eI/s1600/ramsey.jpg

Mattb
02-09-2010, 07:31 AM
I love it!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rpiegz3et3E/SxHgbHm3FFI/AAAAAAAAAHk/C9TYHUgtQDc/s1600/23vj04m.jpg

Ian Gills
03-02-2010, 02:11 PM
It's actually very clear.

You can trace the source back to dirty Americans.

And if you look real close, just one of them is to blame. Trash burning Cass.

He made me turn Progressive.

Mattb
03-06-2010, 07:13 AM
It's unproven hype with a political agenda.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/927/goremoonbat12.jpg

Ian Gills
04-02-2010, 12:40 PM
I just want to say that today is HOT, so the global warming issue is back on.

Ban F150s.

Terry
04-26-2010, 01:54 AM
It sounds contradictory, but the idea is actually based on a natural polluter -- volcanoes. Kintisch points out that nearly 20 years before the eruption of Eyjafjallajokull in Iceland shut down air traffic across Europe, a much bigger volcano in the Philippines affected the climate over a much broader area.
"In 1991, when Mount Pinatubo erupted, it put tons of sulfur into the stratosphere," he says. "Those sulfur aerosols cooled the planet."
So if we found ourselves in a climate crisis where oceans were rising rapidly and coastal areas were flooding, some scientists think "we could mimic the cooling effect of natural volcanoes and make man-made volcanoes by putting our own gunk, essentially, up in the upper atmosphere," Kintisch says

More of the story here (http://www.google.com/ig?brand=TSNA&bmod=TSNA#max9)

Dana
04-27-2010, 10:51 AM
It sounds contradictory, but the idea is actually based on a natural polluter -- volcanoes. Kintisch points out that nearly 20 years before the eruption of Eyjafjallajokull in Iceland shut down air traffic across Europe, a much bigger volcano in the Philippines affected the climate over a much broader area.
"In 1991, when Mount Pinatubo erupted, it put tons of sulfur into the stratosphere," he says. "Those sulfur aerosols cooled the planet."
So if we found ourselves in a climate crisis where oceans were rising rapidly and coastal areas were flooding, some scientists think "we could mimic the cooling effect of natural volcanoes and make man-made volcanoes by putting our own gunk, essentially, up in the upper atmosphere," Kintisch says

More of the story here (http://www.google.com/ig?brand=TSNA&bmod=TSNA#max9)

The half-life of volcanic ash or sulfurous aerosol particulates in the atmosphere is measured in months, years at most.

The half life of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is measured in decades.

Committing to a program of injecting crud into the atmosphere to reduce whole-earth albedo might work on paper, but it's hardly a solution to exponentially increasing use of greenhouse-gas emitting energy sources in a rapidly developing world economy, any more than a life-jacket is the solution to a rising tide. Long term, stemming the flow is both cheaper & more reliable.

Geo-engineering can't be taken on lightly- the potential for unintended consequences of disasterous proportion are high, (a cure worse than the disease?) Counting on winning it with a Hail Mary pass or a 3-pointer at the buzzer is essentially no game plan at all.

Scuba_Dave
05-01-2010, 06:45 PM
I just want to say that today is HOT, so the global warming issue is back on.

Ban F150s.

Leave my truck alone

clausbelly
05-29-2010, 12:08 AM
Today, the idea of global warming is well known, if not well understood. It is not unusual to hear someone complaining about a hot day or a freak storm and remark, "It's global warming." They don't care about this Global Warming problem. They put only a bit money in, while they silently stuff their pockets with the cash.

Ian Gills
05-29-2010, 11:50 AM
Look, it is happening. And we all know who is burning all the gas, oil and coal.

*Hint*: It's not the Canadians.

Terry
06-20-2010, 11:22 AM
It's been really cold this Summer in Seattle. At least we still have July and August. I like those months.
This is looking out my back deck.
It's so cold this Summer that the honey bees aren't leaving the hives.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/back_view_winter2.jpg

Redwood
06-20-2010, 12:02 PM
It was cold up on Mount Washington as well...

No Global Warming there...

http://www.mountwashington.org/photos/journal/2010/01/2444-450.jpg

Wally Hays
06-20-2010, 01:50 PM
But you see, if it's cold it's because of global warming. If it's hot, you got it.... global warming. Wet... global warming. Drought....... global warming. Cheating on your wife with Larry David's wive..... global warming........... Making millions off your stocks, global warming.............. Being the biggest douche on the planet........ Al Gore. And to think, he was almost the president.

Dana
06-21-2010, 08:13 AM
The thing about global temperatures is, they're global averages. Weather is variable, and local weather even more so. Statistical outlier months at individual locations or even statistical outlier YEARS GLOBALLY, mean NOTHING. When you're looking at a 2-3 degree trend on a global average over at century long time frame, looking only locally or over time periods less than a decade the signal to noise is too small to measure with any accuracy.

If I shrink my time domain only a couple orders of magnitude further, and use my house as the single location for the global measurement, I'd say starting around 4PM yesterday we were in a serious global cooling situation, and had it continued at the 4PM till midnight rate we would be well into the next ice age by Tuesday, and by next month we'll be at absolute zero. But between 6-9 this morning the trend flipped- looks like we have until early Wednesday afternoon before all of the water on earth will boil away.

That's ridiculous, of course, but no more ridiculous than using this season's weather in Seattle or NH as reference points for 100 year temperature averages of a few degrees, global in scope.

Weather is highly variable- count on it, and even a decade average would be close to the minimum time scale on which any information at all on the century scale trend would be relevant, and only with a very spatially diverse set of data collection locations. With the right filters applied to a diverse data set the global-weather signal-to-noise is quite tame-able (a more straightforward problem than the signal-to-noise filtering that allows your cell-phone to work.) It's not all BS- the trends are measurable, and the evidence is a distinct warming trend (of which we have barely more than order-of-magnitude precision), whether or not the proximate causes are all well understood.

The weather last week/month/year/decade in Schenectady or Timbuktu has no relevance in isolation, and to use things like that a reference point for confirming 100 year global trends is about as smart as my using the rapid temperature drop at my house last night as evidence of extreme global cooling.

But y'all knew that.

Terry
06-21-2010, 09:27 AM
Any change in temperature can change weather patterns. The direction of the ocean currents has a big effect in Washington State. It can vary quite a bit season to season.
Before Seattle became more populated, the lake used to ice over between Bellevue and Mercer Island. I haven't seen that in my lifetime.

The ski areas are in talks to swap land for the higher elevations so they can continue operations in the future.
At least for now, things have been getting warmer. Some people say it could be more output from the Sun itself, and others man made, or it could be the double whammy of both things occurring.
Either way, we see glaciers receding year by year in our State.

My picture of my back yard was a Winter picture, I was just joking. It has been frigging cold here though. It just made it to 65 yesterday.
Heck, I can see 65 in February sometimes. This isn't Summer.

Ian Gills
06-21-2010, 09:35 AM
87 in DC right now and climbing. It will probably reach 92 degrees this afternoon.

That's hot and mostly caused by Americans driving their big cars.

It's time we all took the bus to work.

Your freedom is making me sweat.

Dana
06-21-2010, 11:24 AM
Any change in temperature can change weather patterns. The direction of the ocean currents has a big effect in Washington State. It can vary quite a bit season to season.
Before Seattle became more populated, the lake used to ice over between Bellevue and Mercer Island. I haven't seen that in my lifetime.

The ski areas are in talks to swap land for the higher elevations so they can continue operations in the future.
At least for now, things have been getting warmer. Some people say it could be more output from the Sun itself, and others man made, or it could be the double whammy of both things occurring.
Either way, we see glaciers receding year by year in our State.

My picture of my back yard was a Winter picture, I was just joking. It has been frigging cold here though. It just made it to 65 yesterday.
Heck, I can see 65 in February sometimes. This isn't Summer.

Variations in solar output (just like the volcatic ash factor) is a measureable, knowable, number and a factor that is included in even the crudest of climate models. There's no evidence that it's the driving factor for the measured longer term trend (and plenty of evidence that it's not.) A couple or three decades ago it was possible to say that the evidence for climate change being predominantly driven by human factors like taking carbon out of sequestration for use as fuel and dramatic reductions of temperate zone forests wasn't clear, but that would only be wishful thinking today. There are still plenty of unknown/lesser known factors that might upset the longer term aspects of the models (the 100-year error bars are large) but counting on seredipity to save the day isn't exactly a reasonable policy for most of us.

BTW: When was the last time Lake Washington had even a skim-coat of ice that extended from Mercer to the eastern shore? I lived in that area during all of the 1960s and off & on during much of the '70s and don't recall EVER encountering anything more than minor lake icing near shallower shorelines there. During a cold snap some ponds might skim over, but never to the point that ice skating was an option.

Ian- it's not all that hot INSIDE those big (air-conditioned) cars, eh? We should all be driving THEM to work! ;-) (On a bus full o' sweaty commuters the AC is easily overtaxed- and you know how yanks feel about anything overtaxed...)

Terry
06-21-2010, 11:30 AM
Early 1900's, before 1950

There was ice on Lake Washington on the East side of 520 last Winter.

Ian Gills
06-21-2010, 01:09 PM
88 degrees now and still rising. My house will be so warm, I'll have to open the fridge door to keep it cool.

Correction. Just hit 89. Americans and their oil addiction are burning me up.

Wish they all lived closer to work, so they didn't have to drive and hurt everyone else on this planet.

FloridaOrange
06-21-2010, 03:00 PM
Did you take a rowboat here Ian? If so, congrats. If you flew here you get some of the blame as well.
Hopefully my F150 is keeping up where the mustang left off, gotta keep up with my fair share. At least in Florida we are blessed with none of those pesky "inspection" things most of you guys get to go through every year. I think I'll go unhook the EGR this weekend.

Cookie
06-21-2010, 03:17 PM
No airconditioning here and it hit 90F. My cats are so hot they are asking to be shaved. :)

Ian Gills
06-21-2010, 06:37 PM
Did you take a rowboat here Ian? If so, congrats. If you flew here you get some of the blame as well.
Hopefully my F150 is keeping up where the mustang left off, gotta keep up with my fair share. At least in Florida we are blessed with none of those pesky "inspection" things most of you guys get to go through every year. I think I'll go unhook the EGR this weekend.

No Florida. We did not need to take the boat with the rest of yers because we were the ones chasing yous out of town for your overly strict Christian beliefs.

I flew over to keep an eye on the colonies.

A 747 crossing the Atlantic one-way uses 20,000 gallons of jet fuel. That's about 48 gallons per passenger or 6 gallons per mile. That would keep your F150 running for, oh, I'd say a week at least (as long as it's not summer and you're not running the air-con). Per passenger, the 747 is getting about 8 miles to the gallon which probably makes it cheaper to run than your F150 too.

Last time I was in England I hired a diesel rental car. 140bhp, 1600cc turbo. Gave me 50 miles to the gallon and kept the planet cool to boot.

Only the best things come from across the Atlantic. Your ancestors, for one, and diesel cars soon as well. You'll bloody love 'em!

God Save the Queen!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZMDA034YL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Ian Gills
07-06-2010, 06:45 PM
Well, it was over 100 degrees in Washington DC today and the same is predicted for tomorrow. It's even getting warm in Washington State so I want some justice.

Americans are to blame for warming up our planet and this unseasonably hot spell. People living in America but not Americans are excused.

Specifically today I would like to throw mud at E350 Super Duty owners. Those vans are just too big.

Take the bus. Or use the train. Better yet walk and take your hose clamps with you.

http://www.truckandcargovan.com/image/35987629_scaled_160x120.JPG

Redwood
07-06-2010, 09:26 PM
Oh Hi Ian...

Mind if I park my drain snake next to ya on the bus...

Long Live The Queen! Keep them Brits paying for her upkeep...

Terry
07-06-2010, 10:19 PM
I prefer a cube van, they hold 2.4 times more stuff in them, and get the same gas mileage.
I can also stand up in them. A big, big plus.
Why waste gas making multiple trips when it can be hauled in one?

Ian Gills
07-07-2010, 06:38 AM
Why waste gas at all when we can all just DIY?

DIY will green the planet and that is one reason why I do it.

Terry
07-07-2010, 08:09 AM
So when a DIY is making multiple shopping trips to the box stores, that's okay
But when a contractor stocks his van so he can do several days worth of jobs without the trips to the hardware store, that's bad?
Plus, we can drive from job to job saving even more time, and gas. It's not "round trips" that a homeowner would make, it's a one way trip.

Ian, did you flunk math?

Cookie
07-07-2010, 11:22 AM
Ian, my neighborhood is mostly Italian. But, I have a neighbor from Russia, he drives a big SUV. I have down the road a neighbor from India and they are a 3 SUV family. Four families on the road own very large vans and they speak only Italian with some broken English. Another family from Thailand and they own a gas guzzler.

Me? I drive a small economy car and was born in the USA of parents hailed from Ireland, Germany and France.

oops, I always forget about one relative who was a (Seneca) Guyasuta Indian. SO, part of me really does belong here before most of you guys. :) The gas is all mine.

Ian Gills
07-07-2010, 06:59 PM
Look. The facts are simple.

Tomorrow will be 90 degrees in Bothell. Most of them folks there can't afford AC and (thanks to the "licensed" contractors) their windows often don't open.

So people in this country need to start driving smaller cars, like Cookie, else we all start to get hot.

And that includes the plumbers too.

Most DIYers do not need to make round trips to the home store. We read our local codes; make a plan and construct a list of materials; submit these for the permit; and, then we start work. Then it's off to the supply house and back. Schedule the inspection and done.

It's not rocket science (although deck building is).

Cookie
07-07-2010, 07:12 PM
Ps. :) I also drive a jeep. lol.

Cookie
07-07-2010, 07:14 PM
ON a sad note, a friend of my son's died yesterday while working outside. He was early 20's. So, not to preach to you all, just make sure you drink lots of water.

Terry
07-07-2010, 07:21 PM
Ian,
If we drove what you drove, it would waste too much time, too much gas, too much rubber on the road.
It's not rocket science to us, but it is sounding like it is to you.
Golly.
We get way more work done in a day. We're not into mutilple days and trips, it's git er done time.

Cookie, it's too bad about your son's friend. It's not an obvious thing to think about, but it does happen every year to young people.
Rugged sells cooling fans with water misting for just that purpose. He's trying to get the schools to look into them to protect the kids during heat waves.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMRMW1FXSHw

Cookie
07-07-2010, 08:03 PM
Terry, what was weird was the fact I was outside when LifeFlight went overhead. I even looked up. I didn't even think about what could be and, then learned he was lifeflighted out. Really really so sad.

It has been so hot that I have been leaving pails of water out for animals at night. Heck, raccons, skunks, deers, I guess even mice and rats are drinking it. They need it.
~~~~~~~~
What is another fact which is also, so very sad is that his other 2 friends who are over in Afghanistan has just been killed by taking out mines, just 3 days ago.

We are depressed over all of this right now. I feel for my son. I know and love these kids.

Cookie
07-09-2010, 06:21 AM
The outpouring of love and warmth for those boys & their families who were killed overseas, from our neck of the woods has been tremendous. It is nice to know there are those types of people still alive today who care & are human beings. Their condolences has been great, really nice folks, good human beings.

Cookie
07-09-2010, 06:23 AM
Terry,

I was at a function for work the other day, it was outside, and they had those misting fans. I don't think they were Steve's but, it was truly helpful in this heat. I wonder how his is going.

Ian Gills
07-16-2010, 06:31 PM
Temperatures in the first six months of 2010 were the warmest January-June on record. Records date back to 1880.

It's time to stop driving your big cars and vans ladies and gentlemen. They are heating up the planet and hurting people, including those that cannot afford to drive cars and vans.

Take the bus or walk. If you live too far from work....MOVE! Or your freedom (to polute the planet) will be taken away from you.

Do no harm America because your freedoms are causing harm.

Fix it or the Governmemt will fix it for you, because it knows better than you.

Bigger Government is the only way to fix this mess. And $8/gallon gas would help too.

Cap and trade. And let's tax this filth.

Cookie
07-16-2010, 08:51 PM
Less people in the states would help too.

Ian Gills
07-17-2010, 03:01 PM
Yes, Americans should use birth control. Only a few came over on the boat and look how many we have now.

I also agree that there are too many in the States. People in these should all move to DC or Puerto Rico.

Cookie
07-17-2010, 07:35 PM
I think we should limit drastically the amount of people allowed in our states from other countries. Their are not enough of jobs and resources. Not trying to be rude here, but I am an American Ian, and I would like to see our country flourish. I am sure you would like to see the same of yours.

Cookie
08-08-2010, 02:23 PM
Sun Aug 8, 2010 11:58 am ET Yahoo news.

Un Oh...

WASHINGTON (Reuters) Ė An ice island four times the size of Manhattan broke off from one of Greenland's two main glaciers, scientists said on Friday, in the biggest such event in the Arctic in nearly 50 years.

The new ice island, which broke off on Thursday, will enter a remote place called the Nares Strait, about 620 miles south of the North Pole between Greenland and Canada.

The ice island has an area of 100 square miles (260 square km) and a thickness up to half the height of the Empire State Building, said Andreas Muenchow, professor of ocean science and engineering at the University of Delaware.

Muenchow said he had expected an ice chunk to break off from the Petermann Glacier, one of the two largest remaining ones in Greenland, because it had been growing in size for seven or eight years. But he did not expect it to be so large.

"The freshwater stored in this ice island could keep the Delaware or Hudson Rivers flowing for more than two years," said Muenchow, whose research in the area is supported by the National Science Foundation.

"It could also keep all U.S. public tap water flowing for 120 days."

He said it was hard to judge whether the event occurred due to global warming because records on the sea water around the glacier have only been kept since 2003. The flow of sea water below the glaciers is one of the main causes of ice calvings off Greenland.

"Nobody can claim this was caused by global warming. On the other hand nobody can claim that it wasn't," Muenchow said.

Scientists have said the first six months of 2010 have been the hottest globally on record. The El Nino weather pattern has contributed to higher temperatures, but many scientists say elevated levels of man-made greenhouse gases are pushing temperatures higher.

The initial discovery of the calving was made by Trudy Wohlleben of the Canadian Ice Service.

The ice island could fuse to land, break up into smaller pieces, or slowly move south where it could block shipping, Muenchow said.

The last time such a large ice island formed was in 1962 when the Ward Hunt Ice Shelf calved an island. Smaller pieces of that chunk became lodged between real islands inside Nares Strait.

Ian Gills
08-17-2010, 12:25 PM
Just look what you Americans are doing.

TIme to curb your freedoms and tax some gas.

I'm lucky, 'cos I have a Zoeller. But some of yous might not.

http://i.imwx.com/web/news/2010/august/dc-storm6-081210-439x330.jpg