Flippers

[jimbo]

Not the dolphin show!

I didn't want to drag on an earlier post, where this subject was mentioned.

I do love all those flipper shows on TV. Mad Man Montolongo is one of my favorites. Jeff Lewis....wow, hard to believe nobody has taken a swing at him!

Richard Davis....he has said on the program that permits are for fools. He doesn't have time for permits. He doesn't mind paying an occasional fine ( or payoff ) just as long as they don't slow him down!

And on one show, don't remember the guys name...but one of the real klutzes who got in on the craze....when faced with a serious problem that needed some work....he said to his "worker"....just make it look good...I don't have to live here!

Moral of the story....don't buy a flipped house!

[Redwood]

If people haven't figured that out from watching the shows
ya think they'd be smart enough to heed this warning?:rolleyes:

[hj]

If you like Mad Dog, then you probably have his "free cd and dvd, just pay a small shipping and handling fee". To me he is one of the worst "just make it look good, that is all that is in the budget. And I have to pay for the Hummer" flippers, not that many of them are concerned about what is under the surface. As one flipper said, "Watch the cabinets. They will fall apart before the new countertop is installed if you are not careful."

[jimbo]

No, I don't have the CD! I'll bet the "shipping and handling" is enough to make next months' payment on the Hummers!

They certainly seem to think you can put in some particle board cabinets, or worse yet paint over some old ones, slap some granite on top and some cheap travertine on the floor, and boom....$100 grand in his pocket.

I notice that none of the people that Armando uses seem to be licensed contractors, and they also don't mess with permits unless forced to. And he is such a pr$!@$@$ with his "contractors", beating them up unmercifully about costs....you just know the underlying quality has to suffer!

[Cass]

I am running into more and more homes where the new buyer finds out within a short period of time that many short cuts were taken in there newly renoed home.

I just had a call Monday AM where there was a small crack 180 degrees in a CI stack right where the stack met the floor. It had been there for years. So the flipper painted the stack and floor to look real pretty covering the staining on the floor. The home inspector didn't catch it and of course the flipper said he had no idea it was there.

The HO didn't find it till they had been in the home a few weeks and they started finding a brown puddle on the floor and now they are faced with legal action or a large repair bill...

[Dunbar Plumbing]

It doesn't necessarily need to be a flipped house to have those dangers.


Countless times I find the homes with basements that were finished AFTER the house was built are the worst.


A buddy or brother, in-law goes to town with some wood and drywall and covers it all up.

I did a icemaker line replacement that involved opening the ceiling in 3 locations to get the old one out.


Sound extreme?


Well, you have to find out where the saddle valve was because for a fact, those leak. Had to trace the line by travelling the length of the plastic tubing. Once found, the pierced section was removed and the connection for the icemaker was installed with a ball valve assembly in an open area near the water heater where the access is permanently open.

Bottom line? I'm charging, and I'm adding hardship fees. They don't know that but I don't feel compelled to give sympathy rates anymore.

It's all my gain and I just figure it's a learning experience for the homeowner to be more thorough in their buying practices. It's certainly not the plumber's fault.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Of course, I have to chime in....

Exactly like Cass here, I come into DIY and flipped homes more and more now.

If anything, it has been beneficial to my business.

Seeing a home being sold as a two bath, the downstairs DIY 3" bath group drain was back-pitched almost 6 inches with no vents for the plumbing, rather than having a sewage ejector.
The R.E. agent attempted to tell me I didn't know what I was talking about as the reality set in that the home was not only a single bath, but it had a hidden cesspool inside it's basement that would have to be either removed, or remodeled.

That sale didn't happen.

50% of the bad work I encounter is prior to purchase as the RE agants and lawyers haggle out the final closing cost.

The other 50% are the unfortunate homeowners that learn they're stuck with thousands in repairs & replacements.

Some of those can be a true heart breaker...watched a young couple as I explained why the house was smelling like sewage and I explained the walls were going have to be opened, she was in tears as she realized the fancy woodwork and faux painted walls were going have to be replaced.

The interior was beautiful...thank you HGTV.

It might just be my state, but any additional fixtures not already on the deed tend to be a red flag on closing, the buyer will usually use this as leverage to get the price down unless the current homeowner decides to get the permits and licensed pro to do it right.
Very often this means having to rip out walls, ceilings or strucure to get into the piping or electrical.

Buyer beware.

http://images.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://media.canada.com/b17a5268-e809-4db2-a84b-06fc4c00d03e/m1x00233_9.jpg&usg=AFQjCNG-VSacegXrKrPh9MxsIrhCGCBtgw
Homes on Homes. (http://www.hgtv.com/holmes-on-homes/show/index.html)

Discuss Mike Holmes here
(http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?35705-Holmes-on-Homes-HGTV-Sundays-9.8c)

Holmes on Homes is a great series, I haven't really watched it much, but he really gets the point across about this topic.
He doesn't just dwell on homeowners or DIY's...there are far too many states where a fella can just pay a fee and label themsleves contractor, GC or remodeler with no experience.

This is one solid argument for the licensed plumbing trade in most states, apprenticeships are a prerequisite along with passing a test at the end of the apprenticeship.

[patrick88]

I must agree with Grumpy.
I had a few home owners that bust into tears because they bought a house that had all the problems white washed.
Holmes on Homes is the funniest show. He just walks in and shows you what is wrong and why. I watch it every chance I get.


I also get the home owners that move in and get there first main sewer back up. I always ask if this ever happened before and they always tell me no. Well the clean out cover is a lead fit all or at least a replacement. When I tell them and show that this has backed up before they flip out.

I have told R E agents a few times they could help there customers by having somebody video check main drain before a sale. They always tell me that will never happen.
We all know it will hold up a sale so they don't do it.

[Cass]

ditto the C/O cap covered with teeth marks and the HO is holding the paper signed by the previous HO stating they never had the main snaked

[MACPLUMB 777]

When I Was In So. Calif. We Used To See That On The 3" Or 4"
Main Vent Though The Roof Because That Is Where We Would Snake The Drain From If No Outside Clean Out

[patrick88]

Oh yes nothing like a new house with a main line ready to collapse.
I was at a 4yr old house yesterday. The 1st floor 1/2 bath Lav sink has the hot and cold reversed. The well pump crapped out. 1/2 the fixtures in the house drip. 1 of three toilets needs to have the ballcock replaced 4 times a yr soon to be more. I informed the home owner he pays elec. for his well water. With all the cold water dripping and toilets running his pipes are condensateing in the ceilings. This is leaving water marks all over the ceiling. We are installing a sediment filter today and rebuilding the lav faucets and tub/showers. Oh and all the aerators are hardley working.

[hj]

I think Holmes on Homes comes across as an arrogant SOB. I also wonder where he finds so many jobs that have been installed by completely incompetent "contractors".

[jimbo]

I get the drift that his show is in Canada. I was under the impression they had pretty strict contracting laws, at least in the "civilized" part, i.e. Ontario! I wonder if the TV show is paying for all the rework he does, which on some shows has been pretty major.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Oh yes nothing like a new house with a main line ready to collapse.
I was at a 4yr old house yesterday. The 1st floor 1/2 bath Lav sink has the hot and cold reversed. The well pump crapped out. 1/2 the fixtures in the house drip. 1 of three toilets needs to have the ballcock replaced 4 times a yr soon to be more. I informed the home owner he pays elec. for his well water. With all the cold water dripping and toilets running his pipes are condensateing in the ceilings. This is leaving water marks all over the ceiling. We are installing a sediment filter today and rebuilding the lav faucets and tub/showers. Oh and all the aerators are hardley working.

This is suspect, water won't usually condense much in enclosed area's unless there's ventilation, it might be leaking.

[GrumpyPlumber]

I think Holmes on Homes comes across as an arrogant SOB. I also wonder where he finds so many jobs that have been installed by completely incompetent "contractors".

I'll agree with the arrogance, thats the main reason I don't watch it much..he does come off pompous.

But the facts he states seem to correlate with my experience, my state requires not much more than a registration fee for home improvement contractors.
Which is strangely unfair in lieu of the fact that the subs he'll hire for electrical & plumbing have to do an apprenticeship, pay for schooling on their own time and pass an exam.
Makes for an ugly market dilemma overall when inexperienced GC's start bidding to electrical & plumbing subs after already submitting contract to the homeowner at a predetermined price.

Creates an imbalance in the new construction & remodelling market when more experienced GC's have to compete with the endless fly-by-night "contractors" that don't know how to bid correctly with homeowners who often seem convinced the trades are overpaid.

[Mort]

We did (and are still doing) some major renovations on our home about 1 1/2 years ago and were pretty picky about the contractors we hired. Checked their status with the state license bureau, etc, and insisted having certificates of liability and workers compensations insurance. The people we hired have all been in the same business (and under the same name no less) for at least ten years in our area. All went pretty smoothly....done right the first time at the agreed price. There were some things that ran a little over the original estimate but that was due to unforseen circumstances....spit happens.

The main reason I had such good results is that I'm an insurance broker and they've all been my customers for over a decade:D These guys aren't the cheapest around but they're among the best at their trades. Hoping they all make it through the present downturn because they'll be hard to replace when the next need arises.

Mort

[patrick88]

This is suspect, water won't usually condense much in enclosed area's unless there's ventilation, it might be leaking.

I would agree, but the laundry is on the second floor and the dryer vent runs from the middle of the house to the back side of the house. When the flimsy vent clogged the home owner disconnected it and has it venting into the house. I checked around a bit and I'm betting it is adding to the mess. I would have said it before but was not trying to Hijack the thread.
I also checked the ceiling and it is not wet. It seems to get wet (from the home owners words) when they are doing laundry mostly.

[GrumpyPlumber]

We did (and are still doing) some major renovations on our home about 1 1/2 years ago and were pretty picky about the contractors we hired. Checked their status with the state license bureau, etc, and insisted having certificates of liability and workers compensations insurance. The people we hired have all been in the same business (and under the same name no less) for at least ten years in our area. All went pretty smoothly....done right the first time at the agreed price. There were some things that ran a little over the original estimate but that was due to unforseen circumstances....spit happens.

The main reason I had such good results is that I'm an insurance broker and they've all been my customers for over a decade:D These guys aren't the cheapest around but they're among the best at their trades. Hoping they all make it through the present downturn because they'll be hard to replace when the next need arises.

Mort

You did it smart...incredibly smart.
In your work you know firsthand about hacked jobs.
Even when a contractor can produce a lengthy list of happy customers, I'd still suggest word of mouth or reputation.

You'll always get the best referrals the contractor has.

[hj]

My experience has been that insurance adjusters are some of the most notorious for getting the work done at the lowest price, regardless of who does it.

[GrumpyPlumber]

My experience has been that insurance adjusters are some of the most notorious for getting the work done at the lowest price, regardless of who does it.

Try doing a bank foreclosure.

[hj]

Do they even make repairs? I thought it was "as is, where is".

[Peanut9199]

I get the drift that his show is in Canada. I was under the impression they had pretty strict contracting laws, at least in the "civilized" part, i.e. Ontario! I wonder if the TV show is paying for all the rework he does, which on some shows has been pretty major.

Yes the show is in Ontario but he's moving into the States as well he did a huge reno in LA and was on Ellen.

You have to get a permit to do most major work, but it's a hassle going down to the city office and getting the aproval and then getting it inspected.
So most of these guys don't get them or are not licenced and the homeowners don't know or checked to see if the permits are done.

The show pays for about 80-90% of the work as the homeowners usually at this point have no money left to get the work all redone.
Most of the contractors and suppliers will give at cost or free material and labour.
A lot of the time some of the money comes out of Mike's own pocket if they upgrade or find more problems than expected.

Any one here can call themselves a "Renovator or Contractor" and not be licened to do any work as most sub contract out to others and most of them are not licened either.

It's funny i only sell to Wholesale or retail store but i get a lot of calls from people wanting to buy from me.
I tell them i'm sorry i'm a master wholesale and do not deal with the public.
They say "No i'm a plumber" and i say sorry but i don't sell to plumbers and then they say "I'm a contractor" i say sorry but i don't seel to contractors then they say "but i do a lot of renovations, so i buy a lot" i say i on'y sell to Wholesale and retail stores and they say "I have a retail store".

So they went from Plumber to owning a large reatil store in 1 minute.
I investigate further and find they buy and flip houses.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Do they even make repairs? I thought it was "as is, where is".

If a home is deemed unoccupiable, local authorities won't allow the sale until it's brought up to code here.

Things like condemned buildings, or flips, wind up as vacant lots very often here until the bank decides to move on with the work.

Any situation where you have someone unfamiliar with real world physical labor or the difficulty level in actual installation often means trouble.
This is one of my gripes with engineers (no offense to you guys), but very often when you see things on paper it's extremely easy to underestimate the scope.
Banks do this alot, especially where it's already a loss, they want the cheapest regardless what corners are cut they just want it sold as quick as possible.

[Redwood]

Try doing a bank foreclosure.

Oh Yea!
I love the cheap guys they hire to winterize their forclosed properties!
I get a lot of work on those properties when they sell...:D

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I get calls from real estate agents towards fall all the time. I throw out a jaw dropping $279 to winterize a home and they literally freak out!

Almost like they can't believe what I'm saying.

Plus $200 to turn it all back on in spring or whenever the house sells.

That antic should be enough to let them know one thing, DON'T call me back.

Flipping houses is the same as a car; I was a victim of this as I did a title search on a older vehicle I bought.

Stayed in possesion of one owner for a couple years, then it got transferred 4 times with the last "wash" of the title being a collision center.

Then it was sold to the dealership. Truck was rolled, that's why the windshield and rear window leaked months outside the initial warranty.

Other than that, it was one reliable truck and couldn't complain given the history of the vehicle.


On a house that has a lot of hiddens, I can see disaster from the go.