You just gotta see this plumbing job

[jar546]

:D Remodeling and repairs at their finest.

How to fit: Cast, PVC, Copper, ABS and Galvanized all within 8 feet of each other!

http://www.remasinspections.com/images/allplumbtypes.jpg

[Gary Swart]

Also Fernco couplers above ground.

[jar546]

I was debating whether or not to mention the Fernco couplers but figured the pipe types were the main attraction.

[Herk]

I'm trying to make out what that is at the far end - is it an unvented trap at the base of a long PVC drop? That can't be good . . .

[master plumber mark]

anything can be done with fernco fittings,
a 12 pack of Budweiser,
and a willingness to learn.......


you ought to post that to my pip slop page..

that certainly would receive an "honorable mention"

[jar546]

Mark,

Right click on the photo and save as then post it wherever you want

[Chris75]

Also Fernco couplers above ground.

What is the code for using ferncos?

[jadnashua]

As I understand it, the unbanded coupling is only supposed to be used under ground so that when you backfill the fill is supporting the pipes and keeps the ends aligned. Above ground, the metal band on the no-hub connector performs that function. If the ends of the pipe get misaligned, then it is a potential point for blockages, and could be a pain to have to snake it out as well.

[Daltex]

Looks like the ABS has a cleanout going directly into a copper Tee.

[construct30]

What is the code for using ferncos?

I've read many times about not using ferncos above ground, but never in the IRC, IPC or UPC, maybe local, but not any of the major codes, just bull to say it's against code unless local. It is not a good idea and many inspectors frown on it, but they are aproved by the federal guide lines as far as I've ever been able to determine. If some one can quote chapter and verse then please let us know. Use a banded fitting it is best IMO, but not a code that I can find. Like I said I would like to be able to quote a code so if you found it let us know, please.

[Terry]

just bull to say it's against code


Well.........You can try telling that to the inspectors.
Do you have an inspector where you work that lets you use them?

I've never been allowed to use them.

[construct30]

I like the sleeved ones, wouldn't use one without, but I just want to know the article in the code that says you can't use one, I know it must be something to do with not enough support or something. I can't find an article that says not to use rubber ferncos except below grade. Maybe the inspector can explain, I just want to know and he's in Pa where I live.

Go here http://www.fernco.com/speccode.asp They have all the approvals and then check out their installation guides.

[Chris75]

Well.........You can try telling that to the inspectors.
Do you have an inspector where you work that lets you use them?

I've never been allowed to use them.

Terry, I'm an electrician by trade, but code is code, if they cannot re-cite it, then dont cite it... bottom line.

[construct30]

Terry, I'm an electrician by trade, but code is code, if they cannot re-cite it, then dont cite it... bottom line.

Correct, but not practical in the real world I live in, I like to keep inspectors happy as I can. Keep the inspector gods happy.

[Chris75]

Correct, but not practical in the real world I live in, I like to keep inspectors happy as I can. Keep the inspector gods happy.

Why are they somehow better than you? I would rather teach them then let them think they are right... Besides, a phone call to the state usually changes their opinion pretty quick.

An inspectors job is simple, they are really looking out for the customer, so them telling you not to use a easier product is actually causing hardship on the guy paying the bill... Is that fair?

[hj]

Here, Fernco rubber couplings cannot be used inside the building, even underground.

[construct30]

I was debating whether or not to mention the Fernco couplers but figured the pipe types were the main attraction.

I was hoping to get an inspector's point of view on this subject. The banded fernco's are just as easy to use and work well and add the extra support.

That being said, go to fernco's site, they have all the approvals and then look at their installation section.

I never said they, the inspectors, were better than me or us, I just said it is easier to appease them sometimes instead of making waves. I will argue with the best of them if it's worth it, within reason. If they have a good reason for not wanting something then good enough for me, I accept it and move on.

I just want to understand from an inspector's point of view, how a product with all the approvals can be against code when it is not actually written in the code. What are they using?:confused:

IPC or UPC, not local.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I like the sleeved ones, wouldn't use one without, but I just want to know the article in the code that says you can't use one, I know it must be something to do with not enough support or something. I can't find an article that says not to use rubber ferncos except below grade. Maybe the inspector can explain, I just want to know and he's in Pa where I live.

Go here http://www.fernco.com/speccode.asp They have all the approvals and then check out their installation guides.


But this is where the great divide is.

As plumbers we are consistently working "outside the book" in reference to a million situations that present us in everyday work. You can't "go to the book" always.

Sometimes you have to truly think of the situation (ferncos) and think to yourself, "Is this an appropriate, non-fouling, error-free way of constructing a plumbing system?

If you've been a plumber for any amount of time, you'll see these in their use because they are the shortcut to transitioning pipe, cheaply.

When they have to hold pressure due to a backup, they expand and bulge. They also leak if there are points of movement in the connection from vibration or operation of the fixture it connects to.

Piping can instantly become misaligned in those fittings above ground. They're fine for underground because instant compaction provides the support for the fitting, with the understanding that the installer uses grillage to fill around the pipe.


There's nothing wrong with following the code book to a tee, but you'll eventually figure out that we as plumbers have to think outside that book to what we feel is in the best interest of industry and what provides the best repair.

If we outperform the code book, we've done our jobs as plumbers to protect the health of the nation. If we live by "well if it's not in the codebook, it must be okay" theory, then you don't understand the logic of how and why that book was created to begin with.....


It's an ongoing process of changes and revisions, certain products worked for a while until age changed that line of thinking, graduated to its removal or limited uses in the plumbing system that provides longevity without premature failure.

Yeah, something like that.

[construct30]

Yeah, something like that.

You really said a mouthful. Like I said I do use banded fittings, just wondering about the inspectors view point. Hope he comes back to this.

If you stand behind your work, you will go out of business without using rugged's wisdom.

[jar546]

As far as the IRC is concerned, it does not specifically address Fernco to the best of my knowledge.

There is a Legacy report that gives them approval for use as far as IRC is concerned.

The Legacy report states the above ground use of the Ferco is subject to the approval of the inspector/AHJ. This makes it subjective which is not good.

I personally don't have a problem with them, especially for the vent portion.

If an IRC inspector wants to get technical, he can use P3002.3.1 of the IRC to disallow the use of a Fernco.

[Terry]

I've pulled plenty of Ferncos that have sagged over time causing flow problems.
For that reason alone, I would never use one.

[jar546]

I've pulled plenty of Ferncos that have sagged over time causing flow problems.
For that reason alone, I would never use one.

Now that is the statement of a professional.

Nothing like experience to help you make good decisions. Better to learn from the mistakes of others.

[Chris75]

I've pulled plenty of Ferncos that have sagged over time causing flow problems.
For that reason alone, I would never use one.

Perfect answer....

[Herk]

I just replaced my basement sump pump. While I was at it, I replaced the 15-year-old Ferncos, though they really didn't need it. This whole pipe-misalignment thing might be true on some kinds of pipe. On lightweight pipe like ABS, I'm not so sure. And you cannot assume that the pipe in the ground will not mis-align because of compaction.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I just replaced my basement sump pump. While I was at it, I replaced the 15-year-old Ferncos, though they really didn't need it. This whole pipe-misalignment thing might be true on some kinds of pipe. On lightweight pipe like ABS, I'm not so sure. And you cannot assume that the pipe in the ground will not mis-align because of compaction.


The implied use for it's application (dewatering) doesn't pose the same standard of use in dealing with DWV applications. Dealing with solid waste matter ranging from the toilet to the kitchen sink involves matter that is continually broken down over repeated exposures to running water. This process relies totally on the non-fouling smooth surface of the pipe to start this motion from fixture opening to edge of property line. This is mainly a gravity type, not pressure. I'm going to show you some of those rubber ferncos I pull out of sump pits when they've reached 5-10 years old; look just like a flapper in a toilet all rippled, hardened, no chance of properly securing the pipe. I can't even keep those pipes straight when using either the zoeller or the Flotec check valves. They are not steady, especially when a check valve gets farther vertical in that equation.


I agree totally with a possibility of compaction not being 100%, especially if there is underground paths of water movement like in a situation involving pea gravel and a sump pit equation.

If the piping is laid on true virgin ground (unlikely) a solid backfill should implement it's guarantee of being secure. We're not in a perfect world however.

jar546,

If you have a vent set to minimum fall back to a drain, envision a vent inside a hot attic. Not only is the pvc subject/prone to elasticity but that rubber boot is very likely to do the same. The intial application of a fitting is to tightly secure two pieces of pipe together with no shoulder or offset diameters.

Those fittings under a pressure issue are only holding by the 7/8" thickness of the bands where they secure the fernco. Aging rubber depending on what runs through it (hot/cold applications continuous unlike dewatering pump check valves) can make that rubber very hard.

Try cutting one loose with a utility knife and you better have you're band-aids nearby. The rubber gets really hard from being heated from the contents of what runs through it, the ends of the pipe are subjected to deterioration because it allows trapped contaminates between the rubber and the pipe. Mission no-hub couplings have a shouldered ledge in the center, the length of the fitting is intentionally shortened. << This really sucks sometimes but ensures that you either have it right, or you don't. :(


Perfect example>>>>> That rubber connector on the dishwasher discharges.

IF you're not prying it off with a screwdriver you can expect to split it if you're not careful that way.

You pull that connection loose from the barbed nipple, that rubber is conformed to it's connection and the rubber does not go back to its original state.

So if you're like me, you really hard crank that stainless steel hose clamp hoping that it doesn't leak...

there is no alternative, short of telling the customer to replace the dishwasher discharge? Not going to happen.

[jar546]

Rugged, excellent points and well taken.

Again, I am not against Ferncos but only in a vent situation for a repair under the right circumstances. They are used all too often.

If you can do it right the first time, do it.

I use them to fix broken 1-1/2" broken lateral lines in sand mound septic absorption areas because there is no other way without having to overexcavate.

[patrick88]

I'm sure everybody has seen the DIY connect 1.5" cu to 1.5" plastic. It always looks like a mess and doesn't last very long. Mission couplings hold the two different types well.

[construct30]

I think the problem with the misalignment is more of a problem of support. The use of the ferncos in the picture will have problems, the strap iron is not proper support. The IRC says the pipe has to be supported up, down, right, left and every other way. The company even talks about support in their literature.

I have removed ferncos that are over 20 years old and they looked as good as new, as far as them breaking down, besides what is the stainless steel sleeve going to do to stop that, a sleeved fernco will have the same issue, so not a valid arguement against their use.

Misuse of any product will cause issues. We see a lot of that in PEX and other products.

[krow]

There is alot of talk about these fernco couplings and their limitations. In my area they are allowed for repairs but I wouldn't do an entire house/project with them. It would never be cost effective and would end up taking too much time to secure both ends of materials being joined. The problem with the sagging pipes are just out of laziness. Securing both ends would stop any sagging. Nobody should be relying on these coupling to support any piping or fixtures..

Each juresdiction will have their own pressedent. For example, in my area PVC pipe above ground is unheard of and against our code. The only pipe to be used above ground would be copper , ABS, cast iron, CPVC

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I think the problem with the misalignment is more of a problem of support. The use of the ferncos in the picture will have problems, the strap iron is not proper support. The IRC says the pipe has to be supported up, down, right, left and every other way. The company even talks about support in their literature.

I have removed ferncos that are over 20 years old and they looked as good as new, as far as them breaking down, besides what is the stainless steel sleeve going to do to stop that, a sleeved fernco will have the same issue, so not a valid arguement against their use.

Misuse of any product will cause issues. We see a lot of that in PEX and other products.



construct30,


You are really starting to show your limitations. And it sounds like you make a common practice to install/maintain/repair/replace plumbing using inferior/incorrect piping materials because it works for you.

Just because it works in your back yard does not mean it's the golden rule that it's a plausible method of pipe joining. You certainly are not one to decide what's basis for a valid arguement.

It's spelled argument.


I can imagine what your piping systems look like when you use a fernco and you support each and every connection up down right left and every other way..........

especially when you could of spent $8 more per fitting and done it right like the majority of state plumbing codes. A degree of expectation from licensed plumbers governed by the state's adopted practices.

This isn't the first time I've questioned your thinking. So when are you going out of business? You applauded my thinking, but you're not practicing what you preach, complimented me on.

3865

[construct30]

Rugged, I do not use unbanded fittings, I'm just saying You people scare people into thinking that just because some 100 year old house had a repair job done with a fernco the entire house is about to jump up and kill you, that is just not the case.

If an inspector, yes our back yard dirt water town has many, comes on one of my jobs and can move a drain or vent pipe very much you FAILED.

Rugged Sorry I'm not an english major, I'll be around a long time with my back water plumbing company, you're... never mind.

question away.

[master plumber mark]

their is nothing wrong with a fernco fitting
What are you all thinking????.....

they will work great for 200 years....in almost any
situation......



Its really not the fernco fitting,

its always the fellow that is installing them ......

just like in the picture ......


the only problem I have ever had with fernco
fittings has been that over perhaps 10 years
they have a tendencey to shrink a little and the bands
need to be tightend....




Its only a drain line......its not a pressurized water line

I will trust a fernco fitting any day .

if you want to get really technical about it,
most of the sump pump check valves you
see on the market like Red Jacket, Zoeller, and others
are nothing more than two fernco fittings clamped onto a plastic
check valve.... pumping out water constantly out of basements
for years and years constantly under pressure and under great
thumping vibration . .......and people trust them .........


http://www.deanbennett.com/sumppumpcheck.gif http://www.deanbennett.com/zoeller-castironcheck.gif

I would trust a fernco in my home any day over
almost all PEX pipe

especially the pressurized PEX slop
I have have seen. slapped
in all over town................



http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/nss-folder/pictures/si_UEw80h80_DSC06092.JPG (http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/pictures/view_alone.nhtml?profile=pictures&UID=10217)



I have been sitting at home with a sick kid with the flu all
week long, since last Sunday....

I think I am getting a little stir crazy here

[construct30]

As far as the IRC is concerned, it does not specifically address Fernco to the best of my knowledge.

There is a Legacy report that gives them approval for use as far as IRC is concerned.

The Legacy report states the above ground use of the Ferco is subject to the approval of the inspector/AHJ. This makes it subjective which is not good.

I personally don't have a problem with them, especially for the vent portion.

If an IRC inspector wants to get technical, he can use P3002.3.1 of the IRC to disallow the use of a Fernco.

jar546 thanks for the code, I can see that, I guess. I would say that means a person has to be very carefull with pipe alignment and the cuts if you do use one or for that matter any type of repair fitting.

It is nice to have you here, some guys don't care for inspectors, but I can get along with them. I attend all the Builder's Association and other code meetings I can to hear first hand what the inspectors like to see on the jobs. It is easier to just do it the way they like to see it than get on their bad side. I find most inspectors have a valid reason to want some thing, the code doesn't exactly spell out, the way they want it.


Do you know how hard it is for me not to misspell every word right now? I hope I misspelled something. Lucky for me they put the code books on audio tape, our one room school house only had up to third grade and that outhouse really smelled. I also have the plumbing code picture and coloring book.

[Herk]

The implied use for it's application (dewatering) doesn't pose the same standard of use in dealing with DWV applications.

Sorry, I misspoke. So much for tossing off a quick reply. It's a sewage sump. I stuck in a new 4/5hp Zoeller.

[Redwood]

I have seen enough underground sewer line misalignments that I no longer use plain rubber couplings even underground. I've been using a stainless steel banded coupling similar to an extra heavy no hub with 4 clamps on underground sewer lines. I'm not sure of the manufacturer I'll find out next time I get them... It might be Clamp-All.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Clamp-All........the 4 banded orange coupling?

[Redwood]

No they weren't orange... If also used the Fernco Strong Back Couplings when the other ones didn't come in the right size.
http://www.fernco.com/RC.asp

http://www.fernco.com/images/rc.gif

[Dunbar Plumbing]

What kills me is everything on those fittings are stainless, except the worm gear itself most times.


How lucky for them when it comes to job security.

[Redwood]

All the hose clamps I have ever used have been stainless... even in the automotive world!

[Cass]

I have never seen a stainless dryer vent hose clamp...they all are steel.

[Redwood]

Not exactly the same kind of hose clamp are they? The clamps supplied on all these drain couplings are stainless steel... Unless you are buying chinese ones then they might be made of just about any material.

[Cass]

Lately...yes...just large cheap hose clamps.

[Mikey]

I have never seen a stainless dryer vent hose clamp...they all are steel.
I've got 2 of them... of course, I once had a dive knife that had "Stainless" stamped on the blade. It was easy to read, 'cause the letters were all rusted.

[Rancher]

Stainless steel comes in many grades, depending on how much chromium and nickle have been added, the joke about many stainless steels is that the are just (stain-less), not stain proof.

Rancher

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Stainless steel comes in many grades



I think that's what I'm dealing with.....doesn't matter how much I pay for the clamp, years later that worm gear slowly rusts, spins out of the clamp or chews the mesh pattern in the stainless band.

Take for example these fancy S/S grills; people thought they bought quality only to find out the grade of stainless was enough to get less life than a powder coated enamel finish. :eek:

[Herk]

Good clamps usually say "All Stainless" on them.

[Redwood]

Good clamps usually say "All Stainless" on them.

That would be the key!