Bowl installation question

After tiling my floor the flange ended up approximately 1/8 - 3/16 below the surface of the finished floor. Not terribly too low but I assume anything other than sitting on the finished floor (or about 3/16-1/4 above the floor) is no good.

I installed one of those palstic flange extenders as I was worried that doubling up the wax rings was a bad idea.

When I set the toilet down it now rocks significantly more than without the plastic extender on the flange. It's possible the flange might be warped a bit and/or the horn on the toilet isn't perfectly flat.

Should I pull it and remove the flange extender or put larger shims under the toilet? Also, I assume I can't reuse the wax once I pull it, right?

p.s. - it was my new Drake

If it rocks, then yes, you need to remove it. But, before you place it back on with a new wax ring, set it down over the flange to ensure it can sit flat. If it rocks, use something to shim it up so it will sit flat. Then, mark them, pull the toilet, place the new wax ring, then reset the toilet. A 1/4" above the floor should be okay. Much higher than that and the toilet would rock on the flange, which is not good. You do need at least some wax under the flange, and it must sit without rocking to make and keep a good seal.

They make wax rings that are a tad thicker than regular ones. That might be helpful, although 1/4" really isn't too bad for the regular wax ring. Do as Jim suggests and set the toilet in place without a ring to see if it will sit flat without rocking. Don't use a ring with the plastic horn, they seem to create problems and are unnecessary. Also, set the toilet with manual pressure, your weight with a little rocking as you push. Don't use the flange bolts to try to seat the toilet into the wax. Those bolts should be snugged down but not cinched after the toilet is down. They are intended to prevent the toilet from rocking and moving around.

Maybe I didn't explain it clearly. Originally the flange (after tiling) was approximately 1/8 - 3/16 below the surface of the finished floor so I used a plastic extender rings like this to bring it a bit higher:

http://www.rd.com/images/tfhimport/2003/20030601_Fix_Toilet_Leaks_page005img002.jpg

The extender brought the flange to about 1/4 or less above the finished floor.

The wax ring is one of those rings with the black funnel on the end to go into the floor.

So should I remove that flange extender (bringing the old flange back to being 1/8 or so below the finished floor)? Then use a thicker wax ring instead?

It just seems that it may be rocking on the flange even though I didn't raise it all that much with the extender.

Gary - I had a Hercules brand ring with the horn but not the thicker one. You're not a fan of the additional horn? Can I ask why? It would seem that that thing would be a second line of defense if the wax seal failed.

It is quite easy for someone sitting down to cause the toilet to rotate a bit and that can break the seal.

If you caulk around the toilet (except the back where the space will be concealed) after installing on the shims and snugging the nuts, it will tend to hold the shims in place and will prevent the toilet from moving after the bolts are in place.

flange

The toilet should not be touching the extender, so there should be no reason the toilet moves with it in place. Get rid of the wax ring with the funnel in it, they cause problems, they do not cure them. Are you sealing the extender to the flange so there is no chance for a leak between them?

Tank to Bowl connection

Ok - hopefully my last question. In Jamie's post regarding installing a Toto Drake he makes the comment that the tank doesn't need to meet the bowl at all - just be snug. I've read other posts of folks stating that they can't get the tank to touch the bowl and are fearful of cracking it. YET in Toto's installation guide, they specifically state that the bowl MUST touch the tank at three contact points. Of course, I've tightened them as far as I'm comfortable without cracking something yet I've no contact on any of the three points on the tank. Do I keep tightening or no? What to do? Seems to be a major difference in opinions....

Thanks again for all the help.

The last person that insisted on making it all touch broke his bowl in pieces.

Make sure you wear eye protection when you break yours.
Jamie installs about 20 of these a week and and doesn't break them.

Not sure why the sarcasm...that's why I'm asking, because I don't install 20 a week and looking for experienced feedback. Toto shouldn't advise people to do that considering they break when you do. The wobbling has me concerned as my others don't wobble. I guess it is what it is.

You can safely continue to tighten the bolts evenly side-to-side if you never put tension on the tank by actually getting it tight to the bowl. You could put a thick piece of paper at the nub contact points and just when you feel resistance trying to move it stop, then take it out. You'll be so close you won't have much of any movement, but won't be trying to bend the brittle porcelain with the bolt. Basically, it doesn't need to be tight to seal, but it's good to get it close.

An Eco Drake tank to bowl connection.

Not sure why the sarcasm...

Click to expand...

The sarcasm, it's because Jamie has good instructions, and the Toto instructions should be changed. If you follow them, and I've seen people do it, it's not going to be good.

Just like the instructions for the wax on the box are wrong,
and the instructions for the Fluidmaster waxless seal are wrong too.
It's like the worker at the big box store acting like an expert on plumbing fixtures, when his real expertise is putting burgers in boxes and then in bags.
Sometimes, I think there are those of us that are in the trenches plumbing, and then there are the writers. As plumbers, we sometimes wonder how they come up with this stuff. They can't be real plumbers installing real products.
Eventually, we find the right way of doing it, trial and error, but we do get there.

You tighten the bolts.
If you can't get the tank to meet the cradle of the bowl, then you can't.
We can't always either.
When someone brings in a broken bowl to show me, after we've given instructions on how to do it, then yes, there is some sarcasm...
I just hate to see that.
To be able to say how tight would be nice. Maybe I should throw a torque wrench on them and find out the measurement for them.
Not that it would help though, I don't know anyones that does that anymore.
I used to have a torque wrench with my automotive tools for replacing heads on cars, but I haven't done one in a while.

Just trying to keep you from breaking something.

Got it. Many thanks.

I actually used my torque wrench the other day when I put snow tires on my wife's car. Reason was, the slackers from the tire place that had put on the regular ones had them on so tight I had to get my breaker bar wrench to losen them. So I wanted to see how it felt to tighten them to manufacturer's specs....a lot less than I thought.

Again - thanks.