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Bassman
11-11-2007, 11:51 AM
Just when everything was going so well...
Over the range I have installed a 21 cu. inch adjustable Carlon box. There are four pieces of 14/2 that get tied together and one 12/2 that is to be wired to the single receptacle for the range hood. That exceeds the capacity of the box if I figure correctly. A standard box extender might save me (I can adjust the box back into the wall quite a bit) but it doesn't fit over the adjusting screw for the box.

Options?
1-cut away the extension to fit over the adjusting screw in the box
2-extend the box in some other way on the inside surface of the cabinet
3-stuff it all in and hope nobody notices
3-Go into the garage on the other side of the wall and rewire
4-remove the cabinet and rewire-I didn't really say that.

Any advice is most welcome, thanks.

Alectrician
11-11-2007, 12:51 PM
It's all about the make up.

Make it up cleanly and no one will notice. If the wiring all enters from the top, just cut them so they will fold up once. If they are coming in top and bottom you need more wire but still can be done.


And....do your make up on rough in next time!!

Bassman
11-11-2007, 01:03 PM
And....do your make up on rough in next time!!
Thanks! The inspector didn't spot this one.

480sparky
11-11-2007, 01:56 PM
And....do your make up on rough in next time!!

Despite when make-up is done, it is still a violation.


Thanks! The inspector didn't spot this one.

My only questions are:

1. Why did you use 12 to feed the single receptacle instead of 14?
2. Is there a device in this box, or is it all just make-up?

Speedy Petey
11-11-2007, 03:58 PM
It's all about the make up.

Make it up cleanly and no one will notice. MAN! You never cease to amaze me! You are actually condoning putting 27.25 cu/in of wire in a 21cu/in box????? Are you for real??

OK, maybe this is not a "burn the house down" or "easily kill someone" violation, but IT IS STILL A SERIOUS VIOLATION! And on boards like this we DO NOT give advice to DIYers that promotes any install that is in violation of codes. That is a plain fact that you need to accept. If you don't you'd better get used to changing names a lot because you are bound to get yourself banned from quite a few sites.
I know if you repeatedly did this on a site I moderated you'd be gone.

Speedy Petey
11-11-2007, 03:59 PM
Bassman, why the receptacle? Is this for an OTR micro? Or a range hood?

jwelectric
11-11-2007, 05:15 PM
MAN! You never cease to amaze me! .

Ditto .

Alectrician
11-11-2007, 05:19 PM
MAN! You never cease to amaze me! You are actually condoning putting 27.25 cu/in of wire in a 21cu/in box????? Are you for real??

Here we go again



oK, maybe this is not a "burn the house down" or "easily kill someone" violation, but IT IS STILL A SERIOUS VIOLATION!

A SERIOUS violation? Spare me.

One time I was up in an attic and I dropped one of the jbox coverplate screws in the insulation so I only used one screw to attach the cover. Another time I installed a QP breaker instead of an MP.

Yeah, I am one dangerous individual.


Tell me Pete. Do you ever drive 1 MPH over the speed limit? Of course you do so maybe you should .....how to I say this politely???....I can't express my thoughts in a manner fitting this particular forum so use your imagination. It's generally expressed by using four capital letters implying keep your mouth shut.


And on boards like this we DO NOT give advice to DIYers that promotes any install that is in violation of codes.

I beg to differ. Read my post.



That is a plain fact that you need to accept. If you don't you'd better get used to changing names a lot because you are bound to get yourself banned from quite a few sites.

Uhh...yeah. That would be traumatic.



I know if you repeatedly did this on a site I moderated you'd be gone

Link please?

Bassman
11-11-2007, 05:54 PM
Despite when make-up is done, it is still a violation.


My only questions are:

1. Why did you use 12 to feed the single receptacle instead of 14?
2. Is there a device in this box, or is it all just make-up?

I understand it's a violation, I'm trying to gain some knowledge as to how to correct it. I appreciate your input.
One 14 feeds the other three which are stubs to under counter lighting. The 12 is for the range hood receptacle in the same box. I'm planning on putting a single receptacle in, not a duplex. I'm not sure what everyone means by "make-up".

BTW, this box was roughed by an electrician. He would have fixed it, but I needed to move ahead and he's not available for another week.

Bassman
11-11-2007, 05:56 PM
Bassman, why the receptacle? Is this for an OTR micro? Or a range hood?

Petey,
Yeah, a range hood.

Speedy Petey
11-11-2007, 06:04 PM
Here we go againNO. Here YOU go again.



A SERIOUS violation? Spare me. Not major, but YES, serious.
Let me give you an example. A minor violation IMO would be one or two inches over the capacity. This is over SIX. Box fills are pretty liberal as it is.
One or two inches over I have certainly done a couple of times over the years myself.
While I am a serious non-violator type, I do have the opinion that there are serious and not-so-serious violations. An inch or two over box fill it not so serious.




Tell me Pete. Do you ever drive 1 MPH over the speed limit? Of course you do......Actually I drive quite a bit over th limit. I like to keep up with traffic you know.




Link please?
There's three. Find them yourself.

Speedy Petey
11-11-2007, 06:05 PM
Petey,
Yeah, a range hood.
Remove the 12/2 from the box and hard wire the hood. Violation gone.

Bassman
11-11-2007, 06:19 PM
Remove the 12/2 from the box and hard wire the hood. Violation gone.

Way too easy, my head is swimming........ Let me just say, "duh!". Now if I can do it with minimal mess...
Thanks Petey

480sparky
11-11-2007, 06:35 PM
Tell me Pete. Do you ever drive 1 MPH over the speed limit?

The only problem with this analogy is that once you stop driving, you are no longer a danger.

But a code violation will continue to be a code violation until (if) it gets fixed.


II'm not sure what everyone means by "make-up".


The physical process of splicing the wires.

This box has not been 'made-up':
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/logfinish4-1.jpg

The same box during 'make-up':
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/logfinish6-1.jpg


Now it has a completed 'make-up':
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/logfinish7-1.jpg

Bassman
11-11-2007, 07:02 PM
Thanks Sparky, the box is indeed not made up yet. Remind me never to wire a log cabin. I'm going to have to bust into the wall from the other side to correct this. In a log house I'd be SOL. Luckily the other side is an unfinished garage and I won't have to spend any time making the patch look nice.

frenchie
11-11-2007, 09:41 PM
The other problem with the driving-the-speed-limit analogy is that we're not talking about what you do. We're talking about what you're advising people to do.

Better analogy'd be a driving instructor, teaching people that it's okay to drive over the limit. And burn a red light if nobody's coming. Or cross the line a bit on curves, on deserted winding roads...

Bassman
11-11-2007, 10:56 PM
It's done, thank you gentlemen.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/spielbass/IM000643.jpg

Speedy Petey
11-12-2007, 04:05 AM
There ya go! Looks fine.
You'll likely have to move the 12/2 over to the left just a bit when the hood gets mounted. No big deal since the hood will cover anything you do.

BrianJohn
11-12-2007, 04:46 AM
Here we go again

I do not know AL and he may be the worlds best BUT

This is a typical almost an electrician response.

I perform independent inspections (among other things) and it is my experience that electricians that say, "come on it is only a ______________". It is not that big a deal.


This is an excuse they are using EVERYDAY.

You are either 100% or not.

Bassman
11-12-2007, 06:52 AM
There ya go! Looks fine.
You'll likely have to move the 12/2 over to the left just a bit when the hood gets mounted. No big deal since the hood will cover anything you do.

Thanks again for the advice. The wire is exactly where the knockout on the hood is, so installation should be straight forward. The motor is a separate unit that goes inside the cabinet and fastened to the hood. It has a pre-installed power cord that plugs into one on the hood.

Alectrician
11-12-2007, 08:54 AM
A minor violation IMO would be one or two inches over the capacity


Dude, you rag on me for MY opinion yet you violate the code and it's somehow OK?

You don't see the problem with that?


At least guys like JW will stick to their guns and claim they NEVER violate code.

I can make up a box with 4 14/2 and a 12/2 going right to the outlet with PLENTY of room. The 14/2's would probably take up the back 1/3 of the box.

Speedy Petey
11-12-2007, 03:21 PM
Dude, you rag on me for MY opinion yet you violate the code and it's somehow OK?Yeah, I violate codes all the time. :rolleyes: Try again "dude". That's not what I said.

JW and others are VERY smart guys, but I am not them and they are not me. We do agree on most things though.
I am most certainly "sticking to my guns"
You can have your opinion and I can have mine. It's just I DO NOT suggest to a DIYer anything that would violate any codes.
If I feel one conductor over box fill is not a major violation that is my prerogative. I would just not suggest anyone else do the same.
Yes, it IS a "do as I say, not as I do" philosophy. And considering I do this every day, and have for many years, I think it's fine. Using the box fill scenario I think me making up a box with one too many wires is a BIG difference from a DIYer doing the same.
At the same time, making up a single gang box with more than SIX inches over fill is blatant stupidity!

Alectrician
11-13-2007, 12:20 AM
You can have your opinion and I can have mine.


But yours is right and mine is somehow wrong?





Yes, it IS a "do as I say, not as I do" philosophy. And considering I do this every day, and have for many years, I think it's fine.


I have probably been doing it every day longer than you have.



making up a single gang box with more than SIX inches over fill is blatant stupidity!

Blatent stupidity is believing that you are somehow a better judge of right and wrong than I am.

You can backpeddle all day long but you can't get out of this one.




Back to the original post. Put the BS aside and educate me.

I didn't bother calculating the box fill, I never do. I just go from experience.

They might have changed it since the last time I actually looked it up (1970 something) but are'nt the wires 2 cubic inches each, the grounds a total of 1 and the device 2?

Isn't that 22?

Speedy Petey
11-13-2007, 04:18 AM
You can backpeddle all day long but you can't get out of this one.Backpeddle??? Yeah right. I'm perfectly fine with where I am. It's obvious who is who here. I'll leave it at that.







I didn't bother calculating the box fill, I never do. I just go from experience.

They might have changed it since the last time I actually looked it up (1970 something) but are'nt the wires 2 cubic inches each, the grounds a total of 1 and the device 2?

Isn't that 22?All I can say is I am amazed at this and at your attitude towards the code. You say you've been doing this for sooo long, yet you have NO CLUE how to calculate box fill???????
This is Electric 101 stuff and you still don't know it.

No "dude", wires are NOT 2" each. #14 wire is. #12 wire is 2.25". Devices count as two, ALL the grounds count as one. The grounds and devices, etc, use the largest conductor in figuring fill.


You know what, we can quote quotes for days and you will still be your kind of electrician.
I am done with this thread. it's just not worth it.
Reply if you like, I know you will. I don't care.

jwelectric
11-13-2007, 07:26 AM
I am done with this thread. it's just not worth it.

Me too!!!!!!
I didn't even do this post; it was someone else doing it!!!

Code is code and the speed limit is the speed limit!!!

In my state one can lose their electrical license for doing non-code compliant installations.

I think that someone that would drive 56 MPH in a 55 MPH zone should have their vehicle impounded and sold at public auction and their privilege to drive suspended for a period of not less than twenty years.
One of the stipulations of their probation should be that if they are caught walking along the side of the road after losing their licenses for speeding their shoes and socks should be taken on the spot.

Maybe this would teach them that after spending the money to have a sign made, paying someone to install the sign, hiring someone to patrol the highways and doing this in a new car that the taxpayers bought with all the bells and whistles that come on those cars they would learn to drive the speed limit.

If we as taxpayers are not going to abide by the laws that we pay an ungodly amount of money to our lawmakers to design then why don’t we just fire the law makers and do as we please.

Also just what are we teaching our children? Aren’t we teaching them from a very early age that the laws are something to ignore?
When they break one to the rules we set for them what is the outcome? Don’t we punish them?

It is our job as parents to be a mentor for our children as well as all children and teach them that it is not alright to break the rules and laws that are set by those who we elect but instead to abide by all rules and laws.

Now I want everyone who is a member of this forum to go down to the court house in the morning and tell the Judge the truth if you have been speeding and take your medicine. Don’t wait until you have been caught just go down and tell the Judge what you have done and that you feel as you should receive the maximum punishment the law will allow.

Alectrician
11-13-2007, 08:14 AM
Petey, all you have to do is stop thumping your chest whenever you disagre with me and your blood pressure will stay in the healthy range. You really shouldn't get all worked up like that.


And JW...the funny thing is.... I can't tell where your seriousness ends and the sarcasm begins. You DID mix some sarcasm in your post, didn't you?


Both you clowns need to relax a little.


According to Pete, the reason that the box is a SERIOUS violation is simply because ONE of the cables is #12 ....the one with NO make up that goes directly to the receptacle.


Do the 14's take up more space because there is a 12 in there? Do they swell up to somehow defend themselves in a priimal manner against this intruder?

I allow myself to make decisions when I am working just like Pete and everyone else except JW does. This "serious violation" is a no brainer....it's a non issue.

I understand the need for law and regulation. I also understand that it is difficult to write them in a 100% effective manner and generally it's best to error on the side of caution. A reasonable person is allowed to think for himself.

If anyone can explain the danger of one extra cable in this box, I am all ears.



And yes, I DO think it's funny that we are still going at it long after the item was resolved/corrected :)

jwelectric
11-13-2007, 09:08 AM
And JW...the funny thing is.... I can't tell where your seriousness ends and the sarcasm begins. You DID mix some sarcasm in your post, didn't you? :) No! I am serious about everyone going to the courthouse first thing in the morning and turning their self in for speeding.

If we are going to blandly break the law then why have the law in the first place? Why pay all the people that are being paid to enforce a law that we are going to ignore?

How can we expect our children to abide by the rules that are set forth for them if we don’t abide by the rules that are set forth for us?

All one has to do before punishing their children is ask how much we have contributed to their actions.

I ask myself daily why this country has gone to the hogs like it has over my life time. Kids today have no respect for others or their selves.
How has this come about?
They learned it from the adults in their lives. Just a they learn to talk by listening to adults talk they learn to respect the law and other people by watching how Mom and Dad do these things or the actions of other adults.

I watched my Grandson as he progressed into his licenses. He follows to close (the two second rule) and drives at the same speed as the fastest car on the road. Why? Cause that is the way Mom and Dad does it.

It is my job as an adult to be a mentor for the young. Let my actions speak for my respect for the law not my words which are always different than my actions.

Alectrician
11-13-2007, 09:31 AM
I am serious about everyone going to the courthouse first thing in the morning and turning their self in for speeding.

OK...NOW you are starting to scare me.:eek:





If we are going to blandly break the law then why have the law in the first place?

Laws are necessary to prevent chaos. There is something referred to as "grey area" in which we must make our own decisions. Everyone has different grey areas and yours would be the most restrictive of anyone I have ever met. It's not a bad thing...just different. It take people like you and me to balance things out. Too many me's and we would shift towared chaos. Too many you's and we would become a cult of humans blindly following the authoritarian rule.

If you have ever read about those cults that somehow convince people to take their own lives you will find that the first step is to remove ALL decisions that "normal" people would have to make. Once you start trusting someone else to make all of your decisions your brain turns to mush and accepts anything it is told.





I watched my Grandson as he progressed into his licenses. He follows to close (the two second rule) and drives at the same speed as the fastest car on the road. Why? Cause that is the way Mom and Dad does it.

Well, using THAT logic, the reason your son or daughter does it is because you did it. PART of the reason is because that's the way his parents taught him (by example) but there are other influences in his life. There always will be.

You will be on one extreme end trying to teach him. He will no doubt run into some unsavory characters in his youth on the other end of the spectrum that will try to teach him to lie, cheat and steal. HOPEFULLY he will make good decisions and end up in a healthy middle ground.

jwelectric
11-13-2007, 11:38 AM
Laws are necessary to prevent chaos. This is one of the best reasons be used to enforce a jail time for driving 56 in a 55. It is through our legal system, no matter how imperfect, that peace is continued. The upholding of the laws is the responsibility of all. It is through the acceptance of little infractions that lead to total chaos

There is something referred to as "grey area" in which we must make our own decisions. Being that I am constantly in the building codes I think of gray being something that has already been used and is contaminated.
It is easy for someone that abides by the law seeing someone that breaks the law using the phrase “gray area” as an excuse.


Everyone has different grey areas and yours would be the most restrictive of anyone I have ever met. It's not a bad thing...just different. It take people like you and me to balance things out. Too many me's and we would shift towared chaos. Too many you's and we would become a cult of humans blindly following the authoritarian rule. I can’t see anything that either of us have said as being a “grey areas” What I can see is that the nation today has moved more into chaos. As a child growing up I was allowed to walk five miles to catch a bus and ride to town every Saturday. I was the father of two children before I lived in a house with door locks.
Could I leave my house today and be gone for a week with no locks on the door? Would you let your children travel 25 miles one way and spend all day in town by their selves today?


If you have ever read about those cults that somehow convince people to take their own lives you will find that the first step is to remove ALL decisions that "normal" people would have to make. Once you start trusting someone else to make all of your decisions your brain turns to mush and accepts anything it is told. I see that you have never been in the military. Yes I would give my life to protect my way of living and I bet that you would also.
I find that most people that think of their self as being “normal” really mean that they have become complicit. They are the same people that change lanes without looking and speed through a caution light.
The type of person that would not say anything if given back to much money without though of the person getting short changed but would do everything short of being arrested if they are shorted on change.

Not saying that this is either one of us, as you said, “Too many me's and we would shift towared chaos. Too many you's and we would become a cult.”
It seems that you think us to be on opposite ends of the spectrum. If I am on the legal end of this to the point of being a cult, where did you say you fit in?

Well, using THAT logic, the reason your son or daughter does it is because you did it. PART of the reason is because that's the way his parents taught him (by example) but there are other influences in his life. There always will be. Yes I did the same thing in front of my children as they did in front of theirs. Knowing the mistakes that my children are making with my Grandchildren as well as my Great Grandchildren came from experience. The one good thing is that my children are smart enough to listen to the wisdom of years gone by. Together we will break the cycle of monkey see monkey do.
They are listening as well as I explain to them the battles I faced with unsavory influences. As long as we can continue to learn from each other I don’t believe that unsavory influences will stand much of a chance to come between us. The one thing that will open the door to allow other influences to sway the thinking of my offspring is for me to start telling what their problems are instead of listening to them tell which problem they think has priority.


You will be on one extreme end trying to teach him. He will no doubt run into some unsavory characters in his youth on the other end of the spectrum that will try to teach him to lie, cheat and steal. HOPEFULLY he will make good decisions and end up in a healthy middle ground. If I have been good enough of an example for them I think that they can see which is the correct choice and which will lead down the road to chaos.
It the box is 18 cubit inches then to fill it to 18.5 would be wrong. To drive 40 in a 35 MPH speed zone would be wrong as well as life threating to those who abide by the law.

Speedy Petey
11-13-2007, 12:36 PM
Petey, all you have to do is stop thumping your chest whenever you disagre with me and your blood pressure will stay in the healthy range. You really shouldn't get all worked up like that.)See, now this does annoy me. Where are you getting this from???
I am not "worked up" and my BP is fine. You are reading way more into my posts than is there son.




There is something referred to as "grey area" in which we must make our own decisions.There you go. You give the clear impression that you LIVE in the grey zone, while some of us slip into it momentarily.


Now I'm done.

Alectrician
11-13-2007, 01:16 PM
See, now this does annoy me. Where are you getting this from???


From your occaisional self rightious posts.



I am not "worked up" and my BP is fine. You are reading way more into my posts than is there son.


Heh heh...he called me "son".



You give the clear impression that you LIVE in the grey zone, while some of us slip into it momentarily.

And your point is that you are somehow superior because of these differences?


Now I'm done

Heh....I've heard that before. Try to remember that it's JUST a conversation.



And JW...you are a freak of nature. I mean that in a good way. Like I said, if everybody was like me life would be pretty dull. Let me ask you. Has the statute of limitations expired on all of your past criminal behavior? If not, I expect you to make an appearance tomorrow at court. It would make great headlines.

"Man turns himself in for decades old speeding violation" Sherriff's deputies were taken by surprise yesterday by a man who wanted to confess to having violated the speed limit by as much as 2 MPH on several occaisions in his life time. He appeared incoherrant and kept mumbling something about "310.24" and how we are all "going to the hogs". One official suggested the the man may have suffered "multiple electrical shocks thoughout his career" and this may explain his behavior.


Edit to answer JW's question.


If I am on the legal end of this to the point of being a cult, where did you say you fit in?

I think I am comfortably in the middle but I'm a moving target. Someone at the opposite end would advocate total anarchy and that is just as bad as a dictatorship.

Bassman
11-13-2007, 03:10 PM
Well, while you guys were arguing, I installed my range hood. The box now has 17 or 18 cu. in. of wire and the hood is hard-wired. And it sucks...er... blows...whatever.

jadnashua
11-13-2007, 03:24 PM
Come on guys...while there may be some silly things in the code, they are there to protect people. It is not your job to argue about whether it is silly, or if in this particular situation it is okay...it is to do it per the code. If you really feel it is dumb, then go through channels and lobby to have it changed. In the meantime, do it by the book! That's why they wrote the code and there are inspectors. I know some inspectors are a joke, but that doesn't detract from the fact that when you got your license, you basically signed a statement saying you would do work according to the code. What is your promise worth? When you leave the job, what about the pride of having done it well? Fudging an install, in my view, doesn't cut it. From a pro, I expect a professional result that is safe, lasts a long time, and meets all current codes for the work done. If you can't live up to that, you shouldn't be doing the job. Yes, in some circumstances, both you and the inspector may do something less than ideal, but I hope that is not the norm, and in that situation, you have two separate minds that came together making the decision.

Equating it to going over the speed-limit is not really logical. For those of you that buy something over the net, I'll bet you go right down to the state tax people and pay your fair share of sales tax, too. Building a house, wiring it, plumbing it is a long-term action that can have unseen ramifications if not done right, not an instant transient event.

If it gets any nastier than this, I'll close the thread. As it is now, it shows how some people just don't get the whole thing about the codebook. Not someone I'd want doing business for me.

Speedy Petey
11-13-2007, 03:24 PM
And it sucks...er... blows...whatever.Kinda like the latter part of this thread, huh? :o

Alectrician
11-13-2007, 04:08 PM
...while there may be some silly things in the code, they are there to protect people.


Same with any law.






It is not your job to argue about whether it is silly, or if in this particular situation it is okay...it is to do it per the code.


I'm not getting paid to argue points here.





If you really feel it is dumb, then go through channels and lobby to have it changed In the meantime, do it by the book!.

I am talking about real life here.




When you leave the job, what about the pride of having done it well?

I am proud of my work. Having one extra wire in a jbox is nothing to be ashamed of. In MY opinion there are many LEGAL jobs that I would be ashamed to be a part of.


Fudging an install, in my view, doesn't cut it.


EVERYONE on earth except JW "fudges" . Pete admits to "fudging" He just believes that he is a better judge of how much cheating is allowed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From a pro, I expect a professional result that is safe, lasts a long time, and meets all current codes for the work done. If you can't live up to that, you shouldn't be doing the job.


Yes, in some circumstances, both you and the inspector may do something less than ideal, but I hope that is not the norm, and in that situation, you have two separate minds that came together making the decision.


Which is it? Never violate code or only violate code sometimes?
---------------------------------------------------------------------





Equating it to going over the speed-limit is not really logical.

The comparison was to point out that breaking a law doesn't necessarily equate to reckless behavior (although JW would respectfull disagree)






Building a house, wiring it, plumbing it is a long-term action that can have unseen ramifications if not done right, not an instant transient event.


Again, what will happen If I put one wire too many in a box like that? Nothing........ EVER.



If it gets any nastier than this, I'll close the thread.


This is nasty? You must be a lot more sensitive than I am. This is not even a heated debate in my opinion. The only reason to lock the thread would be to avoid the questions posed.




As it is now, it shows how some people just don't get the whole thing about the codebook. Not someone I'd want doing business for me


I assume you mean me, although Petey also violates the code.

480sparky
11-13-2007, 04:38 PM
Anyone got a fork?

Stick it in this thread. It's done!

jwelectric
11-13-2007, 07:56 PM
And JW...you are a freak of nature. I mean that in a good way. Like I said, if everybody was like me life would be pretty dull. Let me ask you. Has the statute of limitations expired on all of your past criminal behavior? If not, I expect you to make an appearance tomorrow at court. It would make great headlines.
I have already did this and paid my fines and walked out of the courtroom with a relief.
Didn't make any kind of head lines but did gain a lot of respect from my family. Now it is your turn and I am eagerly awaiting the outcome.

Come on guys
If it gets any nastier than this, I'll close the thread. As it is now, it shows how some people just don't get the whole thing about the codebook. Not someone I'd want doing business for me. You have my vote to lock her down now although there are some that are learning from the thread and I hope to have them join in the next few days. I always have my students wait until they have graduated before joining a site that we use in the classroom and this one draws to an end so they will be free to join.

frenchie
11-13-2007, 08:10 PM
Okay now, this is gonna be interesting.

BrianJohn
11-13-2007, 08:16 PM
I expect a professional result that is safe, lasts a long time, and meets all current codes for the work done. If you can't live up to that, you shouldn't be doing the job. Yes, in some circumstances, both you and the inspector may do something less than ideal, but I hope that is not the norm, and in that situation, you have two separate minds that came together making the decision..

Unfortunately, a majority of our trade does work less than professional, either because they do not know, failed to keep up with changes or do not give a durn. it is just seldom that one stands up and admits it.

Alectrician
11-14-2007, 07:55 AM
I have already did this and paid my fines and walked out of the courtroom with a relief.


I wish I could believe you JW. That would be very interesting.





Unfortunately, a majority of our trade does work less than professional, either because they do not know, failed to keep up with changes or do not give a durn. it is just seldom that one stands up and admits it.

Be careful casting those stones Brian. You are insinuating that:

A). You and your employees never ever violate code.

B). You run an unprofessional shop.

There are minor violations every single day. It's the nature of the job. I'm talking about an extra cable in a JBox. I'm talking about screwing plastic boxes to a stud. I'm talking about protecting a piece of NM with EMT coming out of a house going into a panel. I'm talking about UG PVC that isn't a full 18inches. EVERYONE except JW makes these calls from time to time for various justifyable reasons.



And....to all the students out there. JW has a lot of knowledge to share and you should respect him for that. I also want to remind you that it will ALWAYS be necessary for you to challange authority. Always ask why and don't lose the ability to think for yourself.

jwelectric
11-14-2007, 09:58 AM
I wish I could believe you JW. That would be very interesting. I can understand your disbelief as this world has turned in the direction of chaos so all you have to go on is my word.


There are minor violations every single day. It's the nature of the job. I'm talking about an extra cable in a JBox. I'm talking about screwing plastic boxes to a stud. I'm talking about protecting a piece of NM with EMT coming out of a house going into a panel. I'm talking about UG PVC that isn't a full 18inches. EVERYONE except JW makes these calls from time to time for various justifyable reasons. When the proper procedures are followed by “special permission” alternate methods can be done per the NEC.
Installing extra “cables” in a box is never an acceptable method. The inclusion of a single conductor is not acceptable.
The use of screws to mount a nonmetallic box is code compliant using the proper methods.
NM cable is not approved for installation in a wet location such as you have described. By installing a junction box and feeding the disconnect with an approved raceway the NM cable can stop before exiting the building.
PVC is not always required to be buried to a depth of 18 inches.
Under a building it can be installed flush with finish grade.
Under a sidewalk of no less than four inches of concrete only four inches of cover is required.
If being used to install circuits for control of irrigation and landscape lighting limited to not more than 30 volts a depth of six inches is all that is required.
If this installation contains residential branch circuits rated 120 volts or less with GFCI protection and maximum overcurrent protection of 20 amperes twelve inches will comply.
Should it be in the middle of the yard and rock was encountered then Note 5 will allow a lesser depth as long as the pipe is covered with at least two inches of concrete and the concrete reaches all the way to the rock.
I will be more than happy to explain to anyone that the codes and as used here the NEC is a bare minimum safety standard. To do anything less would be below safety.


And....to all the students out there. JW has a lot of knowledge to share and you should respect him for that. I also want to remind you that it will ALWAYS be necessary for you to challange authority. Always ask why and don't lose the ability to think for yourself.

I do appreciate those words of kindness and will always strive to live up to them but I must strongly disagree with your advice to challenge authority. I would agree that is alright to disagree with authority and there are procedures that can be followed should you disagree with authority.
It is also good to always question the “why” of a situation. We should always ask ourselves why. Never lose the ability to think for yourselves and always strive to be the best that you can be.

BrianJohn
11-14-2007, 10:16 AM
No you are casting stones.

One you have no clue what I do for a living. As for my employees

I endeavour to MAKE SURE everything I do is per the NEC, if I find my employees doing less that quality work work that in any way violates the NEC they will fix, repair, replace. I eat the labor and material. I have lost money because of a so called qualified electrician doing slacker quality work. I would rather be out of business that have SLACKER quality work installed. I try and inspect all my jobs.



There are minor violations every single day.

I do not argue this BUT if you knowingly allow this you are IMO and the opinion of the VAST majority of qualified electricians A SLACKER.

Al you are arguing that completing installations that are sub standard is acceptable, and someone you admit is knowledgeable (JW) you are telling him this sub standard work is OK. Because you get to pick and choose what you feel is AL's Code. Look at your argument....If you value yourself as any kind of an electrician you would try and let this pass, and maybe others on this site might have some respect for you.

If you are using any of these editions of the NEC you should probably upgrade.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t127/brianjohn2580/IMGP0259.jpg

jwelectric
11-14-2007, 11:56 AM
A man after my heart. Lovely reading

Alectrician
11-14-2007, 12:04 PM
Installing extra “cables” in a box is never an acceptable method. The inclusion of a single conductor is not acceptable.
The use of screws to mount a nonmetallic box is code compliant using the proper methods.
NM cable is not approved for installation in a wet location such as you have described. By installing a junction box and feeding the disconnect with an approved raceway the NM cable can stop before exiting the building.
PVC is not always required to be buried to a depth of 18 inches.
Under a building it can be installed flush with finish grade.
Under a sidewalk of no less than four inches of concrete only four inches of cover is required.
If being used to install circuits for control of irrigation and landscape lighting limited to not more than 30 volts a depth of six inches is all that is required.
If this installation contains residential branch circuits rated 120 volts or less with GFCI protection and maximum overcurrent protection of 20 amperes twelve inches will comply.
Should it be in the middle of the yard and rock was encountered then Note 5 will allow a lesser depth as long as the pipe is covered with at least two inches of concrete and the concrete reaches all the way to the rock


Uhhh...I know this.


No you are casting stones.


I am casting stones? Come on. I am just calling out anyone who claims to be 100% compliant. JW is the only one who says he is. You say you TRY to be on top but I know what that means. You can't be everywhere.



you have no clue what I do for a living

I assumed you were an EC. No?


Because you get to pick and choose what you feel is AL's Code.

That is correct. I consider myself an expert and there are SOME things I know more about that the people that write code. There is a LOT of gray area between blatent disregard and 100 percent compliance. I am not afraid to make those calls.

Like I've stated before, there are many things allowed by code that are downright dangerous. I wouuldn't have any part of installing expose cable on a building, legal or not. I would not install unprotected service entrance wiring into a building, legal or not. I generally refuse to install underground IMC because it just-won't-last.





If you value yourself as any kind of an electrician you would try and let this pass, and maybe others on this site might have some respect for you.

I put a VERY high value on myself Brian but very little of it has to do with what someone on a message board thinks of me. I am open and honest and will let people decide whatever they want about me.

While you are preaching about earning respect you might want to reconsider using personal insults (hack, slacker etc) if you want communicate effectively. I have pretty thick skin but when my integrety is repeatedly questioned I tend to return fire. It's human nature.
I won't likely do this here because the thread will get locked an I will end up the villian.

BrianJohn
11-14-2007, 02:34 PM
Al Among many of the services I provide I do independent inspections for building owners, GC's, data centers, hospitals, TV and radio stations, my job is to find any work related issue NEC violation or what I consider sub par work that may lead to issues down the road. So if I am to point my finger at other electrical contractors in writing I need to make sure/ know my men are complying with the code.

I can not afford to walk into a meeting and have something flung back at me as I point it out the same issue to an electrical contractor.

In addition I do grounding inspections, Ground Fault Investigations, power quality studies, electrical testing of any electrical distribution equipment, Infra Red, electrical fault investigations and repair, also many of my customers are electrical contractors that have issues they can not resolve.

Many of the issues I see in performing ground inspections and power quality studies are directly related to the quality of the work.

Recently did a power quality grounding investigation at a broadcast recording facility, trying to locate the source of hum bars in the visual equipment, narrowed it down to an overstuffed box with a 2" 6/32 screw just nicking the neutral/grounded conductor, this ground current was the source of the hum bars. the 2" screw was not necessary as the box was surface mount, a 1" screw would have been more than adequate.

The point is the simple things can lead to major issues. Major in the sense that this was time consuming, costly and affected the site operations for months while the GC, EC, AV guy and owner argued the problem out.

And while you should be proud of your trade, you career and the quality of work you perform, I will continue to use the term slacker for anyone doing what I consider sub par work, be it an employee (ASK MY EMPLOYEES) or another electrician or contractor.

Alectrician
11-14-2007, 03:29 PM
The point is the simple things can lead to major issues.

I would not debate that at all. It wasn't a code violation to use a screw that ran into the conductors it was poor workmanship by the installer. I have pulled screws out of wires too many times to remember.

I have alway just done bread and butter electrical work and wouldn't have a clue about most of the things you do. I do however know about MY jobs. I know how to do things safely and efficently even though I sometimes drive over the speed limit.

Here is another code I used to frequently violate. We were contracted to run power to automatic drveway gates for a local contractor. Code says 24" depth across driveways, 6" more than "normal" which I understand. Every 10 years or so the asphalt would have to be ripped up, regraded and replaced so they want it a little deeper.

One type of gate was a rolling gate that required power on both sides. They would dig a trench abour 8" wide by 8" deep for the concrete "footing" that would support the gate track. I would run my conduit at the bottom of that trench and call it good. It will be protected as long as the gate is there. If the gate goes, it will be disconnected.

Even though it is against code no one can explain how it is dangerous. I feel that I am allowed to use my brain. I feel COMPELLED to use my brain.