"Wrong way" suction in well pipe

[ChiefEngineer]

Is "it" the pump?

"It" was the outlet pipe/hose/device. The pump is 3/4 HP submersible. Interestingly, today I felt hot hot air coming out of my PEX with the only thing "on" being that submerisble pump, which is attached to polypipe only. The pex is just shoved down there. I'd say that is a pretty big indication of a polypipe hole fracture ABOVE the 25 ft waterline you describe. Maybe not.

 

[ChiefEngineer]

I am here to gleefully report my techniques started to "throw-up"the way AI predicted they might...because it said I COULD NOT inject compressed air that deep at the level I was employing, even with my jet nozzle: atmospheric pressure should have simply stonewalled it. Therefore I had tapped into a cavitation that was then getting cleaned...when it failed the last two days to inject air, that meant the water column was growing mighty as once was...when I pulled/examined the pex it was like archaeology: sediment levels and water lines...much higher than expected. When the well kicked on, after 3 hours of clean flow, black metal rusty crud came out, and the flow at least doubled for another hour. Since ancient pumps like mine probably shouldn't run non-stop (they were designed to pressure tanks and cut off), I shut it down to rest after what I estimate to be 1500+ gallons of clean looking stuff...straight with no cycling of pressure tank involved...all went into my pool which had dropped 19 inches in this hot windy drought, yet still brought it up only modestly. Made me profoundly realize how wasteful pools are. Fingers crossed...but it IS Sunday, and I DID observe. I would say at least temporarily that was good a good recovery rate for a well declared dead by 4 drillers.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Fitter30]

As long is pumping water the water is keep the motor cool and the impellers. Rental places rent trailer air compressors for jack hammers. Have no idea if the pressure is regulated.

 

[Bannerman]

Since ancient pumps like mine probably shouldn't run non-stop (they were designed to pressure tanks and cut off), I shut it down to rest

It is repeated cycling ON/OFF that reduces the longevity of the pump, pressure switch, pressure tank, check valve etc.

Almost all water pumps are rated for continuous duty. As long as there is water flow over the motor casing, and water flowing through the impeller and thrust bearing to keep those items cool, the pump can continue to run non-stop, 24/7/365.

 

[ChiefEngineer]

It is repeated cycling ON/OFF that reduces the longevity of the pump, pressure switch, pressure tank, check valve etc.

Thank-ye, thank-ye. If I had known that I would have let it go for days. Now that I know that as soon as I replicate this again I will!!

 

[ChiefEngineer]

Naturally, I qualified this success because I have had this on-going battle with whatever is down there FOR YEARS. This morning I got 5 gallons of sandy water then about 50 more of clear...then the outlet pipe went under water and that killed the flow entirely. I could not bring it back, and this time when I pressurized it with pex an no nozzle on the end of it the now larger water column (which must be separated by some accident of nature from the pump) exploded out the casing inside my wellhouse. Being the coward I am around wet 220V control boxes I cut the pressure. When I went to inspect the geyser remains it was not sandy...also no visible water down the casing viewable. Therefore, and perhaps I assume this incorrectly again, if I can find a second pump small enough to snake down there above that mess I might have a good water supply.

 

[ChiefEngineer]

Glad to report decent flow for 20 straight hours, and when it began to diminish I injected a ton of air down there and it came right back. Starting to suspect not de-priming, but fluid starvation...like a vacuum effect...the pump gets waterlocked by the formation it has encountered. When there is a channel of water backfilling it works great, when that plugs it starves. When I inject air it takes the place of backfilling "something" and keeps flow. Was sorry to shut it down but had to go out and can't watch it every two hours...with air injection I kept it going 24 straight hours. Of course, the flow is not high-pressure, but it is enough to make
a few thousand gallons a day with no break. Which is nice.

 

[ChiefEngineer]

On Wednesday, first amount of water had sand, presumably from shutting it off the night before. Then got about a thousand more gallons overfilling everything. This morning: six pieces of sandy grit in a cup of water. But I pressured up my second indoor geyser, after which I also got nothing, possibly because all the water was ankle deep in the building and not in the column. As soon as I started building a rain catchment here system it stopped raining. For 2 months now. Is anyone aware of even a crappy low-yield pump that is really skinny and capable of bring water up from 100+ feet (because there is a lot of water in my well). So far people have been quite honest with me saying there is not quite enough room in an occupied 4 inch casing...almost but not quite. Seems like a $500 solution to a $14000 problem. I found a well testers' Grundfos that cost $4000 that might fit, but that's all.

 

[Reach4]

The Grundfos SQ pumps will fit into an unocupied 3 inch casing/pipe. Are you looking for a submersible pump that will fit into a 4 inch casing along side of the drop pipe for another pump?

There are groundwater sampling pumps that will fit into 2 inches. https://waterra.com/groundwater-sampling-submersible-pumps/ They are only for intermittent use.

An airlift pump could be useful. So if your water level is 25 ft down and the bottom of the pump assembly is 90 ft down, an airlift pump could lift. So searching for "airlift pump" will find stuff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlift_pump Rule of thumb is that the lift must be less than the depth of the water above the bottom of the the air lift pump, and the more water column, the better.

 

[ChiefEngineer]

The Grundfos SQ pumps will fit into an unocupied 3 inch casing/pipe. Are you looking for a submersible pump that will fit into a 4 inch casing along side of the drop pipe for another pump?

There are groundwater sampling pumps that will fit into 2 inches. https://waterra.com/groundwater-sampling-submersible-pumps/ They are only for intermittent use.

An airlift pump could be useful. So if your water level is 25 ft down and the bottom of the pump assembly is 90 ft down, an airlift pump could lift. So searching for "airlift pump" will find stuff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlift_pump Rule of thumb is that the lift must be less than the depth of the water above the bottom of the the air lift pump, and the more water column, the better.

Thank-you for that. The Grundfos I found was a sampling pump for permanent use and required its own shelter from the elements, etc.. An air lift seems the way to go. I'm not completely sure I buy the theory of water column height, etc. I am getting massive eruptions of water out a 4 inch casing from what I measure the height to be about 100 ft. This is coming out of 1/2 pex and a 200psi injection. Sometimes that shakes things loose for the stuck pump, sometimes not. Things are constantly changing down there. I theorized if I can raise that amount of water up that fat a pipe with that skinny a source of air, there also must be a way to get a steady small flow with pressure assist (if I am not greedy about it). I am inventing something as we speak along you air-lift line.

It just seems to me that I would be better off if I could snap off the present polypipe where it attaches to the pump, but it seems incredibly stubborn...like it overheated and shrinkwrapped the casing. If I pull the wire instead (it should not stretch) I sense it will detach and I will still be left with the polypipe in the way. Does that seem right?

In all of this is the mind-numbing fact that frequently, not every day, I can get thousands of gallons out of that pump quite nicely, which bifurcates by desire to plan a big pull.

 

[ChiefEngineer]

Update:

1) One of my really big in-the-building geysers seems to have fried the capacitor in my control box. Perhaps someone would like to help diagnose (I removed/cleaned/shorted/tested and it was 126 MicroFarads when the range is 86-103...so it seems "normal"...but what prompted me to remove it was no hum from the pump and the starter was still hot two hours after removal). Now the pump hums and then NOTHING after about 40 seconds. Breaker never trips.

2) I now have experimented ALOT. TWO 1/2 inch pex pipes joined with a T at 105 ft, with the the non-air-line extending 3 feet lower with an upward facing check valve near its bottom. These sit in about 10 feet of water normally. Draw-down is very little and very slow, but recovery is very fast, as witnessed by the submersible pump which could/did run all day.

3) I CAN draw water without a geyser...which was an initial issue before the check valve went on. The big problems are these: A) keeping the water clean...the slightest variation in pressure can kick around the pex stirring things up, B) wear on the compressor...it is a large unit and works very hard to recharge from 165PSI back up to 200 which in my estimation happens way too often for its duty cycle, C) the constant need to calibrate the flow...a balancing act of air pockets and water. It "changes" even though the pressure dial stays the same...what I am noticing is it is NOT the draw down and pressure doing that, but the cycling of the compressor...perhaps a small compressor made to run constantly with no tank would be more viable, D) the low production of water due to the friction of 1/2 inch pex...a better design might be to T a pex line with air UP about three feet at the bottom of a 1 inch polypipe which would raise the water.

Anyone wanting to add ideas, I am open to experimenting!

 

[Valveman]

Sorry for your problem. I think you have gone far above and beyond the call of duty on this. Room for an air lift pump maybe?

 

[Reach4]

I just reviewed the thread. How much pull did you do (approx pounds of force). How much did the pipe stretch (approx inches).

How about a diagram, maybe similar to the diagram in https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/

I am wondering what would happen if you maintained maybe 200 pounds of tension on the pipe. Then valve off the air to your pex pipe, and let the pressure build in the tank. Run the pump, discarding the water. Then release that air suddenly. Repeat. Would this shake the pump free?

 

[ChiefEngineer]

I'm embarrassed to say I suck at diagrams, I am actually a mathematician who was turned into and engineer by HP...then up the ranks I kept that pedigree, so if you can follow, here it is in English (like the Algebra we all learned): 3 pipes down a 4 inch casing--FIRST: 120ft of 1-inch poly holding a 3/4HP stuck pump--pipe now also extends another 6+ feet above ground stretched by a winch that can pull down gigantic trees, SECOND: a 1/2in pex down 108ft with a foot valve connected to an air 4.7 cfm air compressor, THIRD: 105ft 1/2in pex water return T'd to the other pex. Finally getting clean water today...just not enough to fill a swimming pool...but we have rain forecast for the first time in almost 3 months this week. I appear to have been I have been cleaning this well.

"Run the pump, discarding the water. Then release that air suddenly. Repeat. Would this shake the pump free?"

I have shot air through the pex into the poly at the head with it stretched and it did not budge the pump, but IT DID seem to clean it some from being impinged once. I can tell you I have WAY more on that poly than 200 lbs. Unless I tension the poly I get no water at all, either because the pump is sitting in crud, or it has deformed via heat (partially shrink-wrapped) the casing. My theory is tensioning it straightens it back some and the screens starts accepting flow...I could be way off.

If I get something that I feel the average stuck-well-guy can use daily (I am not a spoiled person), I promise to have someone
make a diagram to post like the one with your lovely pitless adapter (we don't use those around here)