Well Circuit Breaker intermittently trips

[DYI13]

Hello all, and thanks in advance for your advice!

We've had problems with the well circuit breaker tripping for around 6 months. The first time it was because of a toilet running, and we replaced all of the toilet flappers. We've had a well company come out twice--the first time it was indeed the toilet, the second time (2 weeks ago) the well guy says it was a running toilet but we have no solid proof.

They checked the voltages, pressure tank, gauge and switch and everything is fine.

Well now the breaker tripped 3 times in the last 24 hours. The last time was when we were filling a tub, and we verified that the toilets were not running.

I have a 14 year old goulds 4" submersible pump, an older 40 gal or so pressure tank, a cycle stop valve, a neutralizer and water softener. The well is 150 feet deep, and the pump is down 118 feet.

What are your thoughts? What are my next steps?

Thanks so much.

 

[Reach4]

One possibility is the start capacitor in the control box, that you did not mention, is getting weak. That is the cheap and easy one to hope for.

But then for that to be the case, you would have to have a control box.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[DYI13]

One possibility is the start capacitor in the control box, that you did not mention, is getting weak. That is the cheap and easy one to hope for.

But then for that to be the case, you would have to have a control box.

I don't believe I have a control box. If it would be right where the well pipe enters the house to the cycle stop valve, pressure tank and related gauges, I don't have one. I'm having trouble attaching a photo. Here's a link to the photo that I posted back in March when I installed the cycle stop valve.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/pressure-tank-set-up-cycle-stop-jpg.72308/

 

[Reach4]

The output of the pressure switch would go there. If you have no control box, and the pressure switch wires go right to the pump with no electric/electronic gadget in the way, you have a "2-wire" pump.

Long shot is that the breaker is bad. So what do you you have -- a 2-pole 15-amp breaker that is tripping at the breaker box?

A 7 gpm 3/4 HP pump may be right. If you have room in the well, a flow inducer sleeve over the pump is a very good idea to cool the motor better.

To upload a photo, it must be 800 pixels max and 200 KBytes or less.

Consider measuring the current to the pump while it is operating correctly by using a clamp ammeter around one hot wire. That wire could be at the pressure switch, or could be in the breaker box with the cover off.

 

[DYI13]

The output of the pressure switch would go there. If you have no control box, and the pressure switch wires go right to the pump with no electric/electronic gadget in the way, you have a "2-wire" pump.

Long shot is that the breaker is bad. So what do you you have -- a 2-pole 15-amp breaker that is tripping at the breaker box?

A 7 gpm 3/4 HP pump may be right. If you have room in the well, a flow inducer sleeve over the pump is a very good idea to cool the motor better.

To upload a photo, it must be 800 pixels max and 200 KBytes or less.

Consider measuring the current to the pump while it is operating correctly by using a clamp ammeter around one hot wire. That wire could be at the pressure switch, or could be in the breaker box with the cover off.

The circuit breaker is a double 15 amp pole breakers and yes, it trips at the breaker box. We have a 2-wire pump. I will also add that we have a whole house filter that has to be changed every month, it gets very brown.

Regarding testing the current to the pump while it is operating, I know the well guys measured amps--I wrote down "pump is 5.5 amps on meter, which means it's ok."

Does this tell you anything?

 

[Reach4]

Yes, but it raises the next question: When was that 5.5 amps measured?

 

[DYI13]

Yes, but it raises the next question: When was that 5.5 amps measured?

My husband was there when they measured the amps on the visit 2 weeks ago. They had him run the water and they checked during it, so I am guessing the pump was running. The well guys said it was within range, and he thinks that time they said it was measuring 5.4. We don't have a clamp ammeter, though I see one can be had for $15, not sure we could use it safely.

 

[WorthFlorida]

What is not known is does the breaker trip on start up or while the pump is running? Your first post read the breaker would trip because a toilet was constantly running. That doesn't make much sense unless the motor is over heating, but you have a CSV and that should keep the load to the motor fairly constant. I cannot find an internal wiring diagram for a 2 wire submersible pump motor but I'm assuming it has an internal capacitor. Maybe someone can confirm this, therefore, as Reach3 first suggestion that it's the start cap, and if it is true, I'm suspecting that is the problem and may require a new pump.

I'm not all familiar with submersible pumps but most above ground motors require an internal thermal switch. If the motor over heated it will open the circuit to shut the motor off, when it cools the thermal switch will close the circuit so the motor can run. It usually would not trip breakers. If sub motors do have this feature, to me it points to a bad capacitor.

As Reach4 mentioned it is possible the breaker is bad and I did see that once where a refrigerator would trip a breaker. I replaced the breaker and all was good.

 

[Reach4]

If you want to be extra safe from shock, wear rubber gloves at least as heavy as dishwashing gloves. That is not needed.

So the deal is, we are left with two possibilities:
1. sometimes the pump draws more than 15 amps for more than a second.
2. the breaker needs to be replaced.

I think it more likely there is an occasional problem with the pump, but breakers are cheap. Get some help replacing the breaker if you want to go that route.

 

[DYI13]

What is not known is does the breaker trip on start up or while the pump is running? Your first post read the breaker would trip because a toilet was constantly running. That doesn't make much sense unless the motor is over heating, but you have a CSV and that should keep the load to the motor fairly constant. I cannot find an internal wiring diagram for a 2 wire submersible pump motor but I'm assuming it has an internal capacitor. Maybe someone can confirm this, therefore, as Reach3 first suggestion that it's the start cap, and if it is true, I'm suspecting that is the problem and may require a new pump.

I'm not all familiar with submersible pumps but most above ground motors require an internal thermal switch. If the motor over heated it will open the circuit to shut the motor off, when it cools the thermal switch will close the circuit so the motor can run. It usually would not trip breakers. If sub motors do have this feature, to me it points to a bad capacitor.

As Reach 3mentioned it is possible the breaker is bad and I did see that once where a refrigerator would trip a breaker. I replaced the breaker and all was good.

At least today, I'm pretty sure the circuit breaker tripped after start up, while the pump was running. I say this because our son was filling the tub for about 5 minutes when the water stopped. My husband was watching was watching the gauge on the pressure tank when the water stopped. When he started watching, the gauge was running at 50 PSI (possibly due to the CSV) for a couple of minutes, and then started to drop slowly at first, then precipitously.

The Goulds pump booklet does say that the pump has an internal device that will shut off if it overheats, and I did question the well guys about that--why would the circuit breaker pop instead of this device if it's overheating due to lack of water? Got the answer of who knows, the pump is old.

We've had no problem with the water for the past 8 hours.

Maybe we should try replacing the breaker first as you and Reach3 suggest. I'll need to get help with that, so it may take a few days. Thank you both--I'll post back.

 

[DYI13]

If you want to be extra safe from shock, wear rubber gloves at least as heavy as dishwashing gloves. That is not needed.

So the deal is, we are left with two possibilities:
1. sometimes the pump draws more than 15 amps for more than a second.
2. the breaker needs to be replaced.

I think it more likely there is an occasional problem with the pump, but breakers are cheap. Get some help replacing the breaker if you want to go that route.

Yes, I think we'll start with the breaker (please read my response to WorthFlorida. Not 100%, but looks like the breaker tripped while the pump is running, not on start up). Thank you. I'll post back.

 

[Valveman]

Yes, replace the breaker. Once the start tripping they get more sensitive and won't stay on when they should. Yes there is an overload in the motor, and either a biac switch or split phase capacitors. 13 years with no Cycle Stop Valve could also be the problem, as I am sure it has cycled on/off a bunch. Usually a bad capacitor or motor problems will trip the overload in the motor. Tripping a breaker usually means a wire is chaffed or something causing a slight short.

 

[DYI13]

An update. While waiting for an electrician to phone me back, I called around and got a decent price on a pump so asked this different company to do some diagnostics. They looked at the wires from the wellhead and found a scraped wire that left burn marks on the adjacent wire—that’s what was causing the breaker to trip. Tested the wires that went down the well and there was a small amount of resistance when there should have been none. Said the motor is likely starting to fail—could last 2 days or 2 years. When they pulled the pump there were a couple of places where the the wires were scraped. So we had them put a new pump and new wires in.

The first company never opened the well cap. Did all the testing from inside the house.

Thank you all for your help. I am sure being able to understand and accurately describe my problem saved me some money with the well company. And I will put in a new breaker next time my brother-in-law comes for dinner (He’s my non-urgent electricity go to guy.)

 

[Reach4]

I presume they detected a current path between the hots and ground. The burn mark was the definate indicator.

It's good to have that fixed.

I would not be changing the breaker just because it did its job a few times.

 

[Valveman]

Tripping a breaker usually means a wire is chaffed or something causing a slight short.

Also, remember those places on the wire that were chafed was from the pump cycling on and off too much. Chaffed wire is just one of many problems caused by cycling.