Water heater expansion tank

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Hwkmn05

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My plumber ran new lines in my basement for space issues in ceiling. Needing to move lines around the water heater, he removed my expansion tank on it claiming it was of no use. I disagree. Now it takes a minute longer to run hot to the upstairs. Could it be because the tank is on a timer? He did leave an install fitting with a shut off on it. Could I simply reinstall this without any issues?

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John Gayewski

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Your expansion tank does supply hot water. If he said it's doing nothing he's probably right. Although who would install an expansion tank for no reason? To know for sure you'd have to look at your plumbing. If there is any kind of check valve, (which makes a one way road for the water) either a pressure reducing valve or a plain check valve, between the supply inlet to the house and the water heater then you need the expansion tank.
 

Hwkmn05

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WH is 10 years old. Plumber who installed asked if I was using a timer, which I was, so he installed the tank. From my limited research, the expansion tank extends the life of the WH and when the WH is in the off mode with timer, it keeps the pressure up.
 

John Gayewski

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WH is 10 years old. Plumber who installed asked if I was using a timer, which I was, so he installed the tank. From my limited research, the expansion tank extends the life of the WH and when the WH is in the off mode with timer, it keeps the pressure up.
It depends on how your system is set up. If you read the direct instructions from a plumber (me) you'd be further along knowing what is going on.
 

Jeff H Young

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Wow your plumber hate to say totally steered you wrong, I can understand he might think you don't need it . but he should know that on a closed system it will likely put strain on the plumbing, sure you have a T&P so it might not be a danger , shortening life of every component not that big a deal but when a old supply line bursts or the w/h leaks it might be a problem and allowing the pressure to rise to an unknown up to 150 psi is kind of hard on everything
 

John Gayewski

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Wow your plumber hate to say totally steered you wrong, I can understand he might think you don't need it . but he should know that on a closed system it will likely put strain on the plumbing, sure you have a T&P so it might not be a danger , shortening life of every component not that big a deal but when a old supply line bursts or the w/h leaks it might be a problem and allowing the pressure to rise to an unknown up to 150 psi is kind of hard on everything
Beware of the plumber. Many people claim to be plumbers. I once met a carpenter who I could tell wasn't a carpenter, seemed more like a laborer. I asked him what he'd done in the past he said he built tool cribs on big jobsites his entire career as a carpenter. A plumbing license is the number one denominator for a person calling themselves a plumber. I think some other certifications either held at one time or presently are important. A plumber needs something other than experience and states should require that to make someone qualified for a plumbing license.
 

Terry

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When I started plumbing in the 70's, non of our water meters had check valves on them. As they replaced them years later with meters that had the checks, gas water heaters started failing early. Codes were adapted and expansion tanks started being the norm.
I have noticed on my home, that having an expansion tank buffers the ups and downs of the water pressure and temperature swings when showering. I would thread on a new expansion tank for sure.

Code doesn't allow us to have the shutoff there, but as long as it's kept open, which is the whole point anyway, it does work.
It is nice for replacement. Though really, I would want to drain down first so I didn't get sprayed in the face.
 

Reach4

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I think the plumbing credentials should be more portable. I know that in emergency situations, states will temporarily admit out-of-state plumbers, as Texas did after their big freeze, but it seems to me that it should not take an emergency. I wonder if they have portability in border towns like Kansas City or Texarkana.
 

John Gayewski

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I think the plumbing credentials should be more portable. I know that in emergency situations, states will temporarily admit out-of-state plumbers, as Texas did after their big freeze, but it seems to me that it should not take an emergency. I wonder if they have portability in border towns like Kansas City or Texarkana.
Upc should become a national standard as it was developed here and mainly curated here. Once you have a upc certification then a state should apply local standard testing to provide local certification. Then in emergency or a situation where someone relocates a state can say let's see your upc cert. Now here's the local standard ammendments to that one (upc) code, here's your confirmation number to take the test to practice locally.

More like the NEC although I have no experience with electrical licensing I would think the NEC applies everywhere and licenses could be issued in different states fairly easily.
 

Jeff H Young

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Beware of the plumber. Many people claim to be plumbers. I once met a carpenter who I could tell wasn't a carpenter, seemed more like a laborer. I asked him what he'd done in the past he said he built tool cribs on big jobsites his entire career as a carpenter. A plumbing license is the number one denominator for a person calling themselves a plumber. I think some other certifications either held at one time or presently are important. A plumber needs something other than experience and states should require that to make someone qualified for a plumbing license.
Looked into going to work in Texas about 10 years ago . they said I could go to work imediatly as an apprentice technicaly but would require me be on a job with a journeyman and could imediatly apply to take journeyman test along with prooving hours worked in trade. They were building the Brooke Army Medical Center and crying for hands
 

John Gayewski

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Looked into going to work in Texas about 10 years ago . they said I could go to work imediatly as an apprentice technicaly but would require me be on a job with a journeyman and could imediatly apply to take journeyman test along with prooving hours worked in trade. They were building the Brooke Army Medical Center and crying for hands
That's most states. In my mind a upc cert. would be a qualifying cert. Meaning show it and get a license after passing a local cert which would just be ammendments to the upc. Most states require a test on their code which could be any test. I think Chicago won't accept a Sate license from Illinois. I've been told you need a city license which is ridiculous in my mind a qualified plumber is a qualified plumbed. People will never agree on what a qualified plumber means hence my upc standard ever won't happen, but it would be nice. There are powers that are so entrenched in some areas, that the greater good might be sacrificed. But in some people's mind their way is the best way so why change?
 

Jeff H Young

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That's most states. In my mind a upc cert. would be a qualifying cert. Meaning show it and get a license after passing a local cert which would just be ammendments to the upc. Most states require a test on their code which could be any test. I think Chicago won't accept a Sate license from Illinois. I've been told you need a city license which is ridiculous in my mind a qualified plumber is a qualified plumbed. People will never agree on what a qualified plumber means hence my upc standard ever won't happen, but it would be nice. There are powers that are so entrenched in some areas, that the greater good might be sacrificed. But in some people's mind their way is the best way so why change?
Out here Los Angeles has a city lic. and I think S.F. has journeyman Lic. other wise thats it. If you are a Licsenced plumbing contractor you dont need a journeyman License to perform work in any city from what Ive heard.
strange requirements all over from what Ive seen in the trade
 

John Gayewski

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Out here Los Angeles has a city lic. and I think S.F. has journeyman Lic. other wise thats it. If you are a Licsenced plumbing contractor you dont need a journeyman License to perform work in any city from what Ive heard.
strange requirements all over from what Ive seen in the trade
Here you can be a licensed mechanical contractor and don't need a plumbing license, but you do need a master plumbing license attached. So every shop must have at least one master plumber, but it doesn't need to be the owner.
 

Hwkmn05

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Wow your plumber hate to say totally steered you wrong, I can understand he might think you don't need it . but he should know that on a closed system it will likely put strain on the plumbing, sure you have a T&P so it might not be a danger , shortening life of every component not that big a deal but when a old supply line bursts or the w/h leaks it might be a problem and allowing the pressure to rise to an unknown up to 150 psi is kind of hard on everything
I disagree. He actually is a great plumber and the second one to have that opinion. I'm guessing they both saw something I'm leaving out, possibly the placement of the house expansion tank. I have none of those issues some report here and basically the only issue is the time to get hot water upstairs with timer on. With timer off, there's no difference. Tank will go back on this week and see if that makes any difference again.
 

Jeff H Young

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I disagree. He actually is a great plumber and the second one to have that opinion. I'm guessing they both saw something I'm leaving out, possibly the placement of the house expansion tank. I have none of those issues some report here and basically the only issue is the time to get hot water upstairs with timer on. With timer off, there's no difference. Tank will go back on this week and see if that makes any difference again.
Even Great Plumbers aren't perfect. none of us are
Ask him why a closed system doesn't require an expansion tank? why re install an un needed tank? If its not needed its actually just another point of failure.
If you provided accurate info in post #5 regarding a check valve then your plumber is wrong
Wait a minute... "house expansion tank? you had 2 x tanks ? that sounds lame maybe you did leave something out
 

Reach4

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Do you have your own well, or is this city water? If well, then that would explain "house tank".

Sometimes a check valve is placed after the softener to prevent "phantom flow" measurement. In that case, a separate thermal expansion tank is needed. Same if there is a check valve due to the recirculation system.
 

Hwkmn05

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Even Great Plumbers aren't perfect. none of us are
Ask him why a closed system doesn't require an expansion tank? why re install an un needed tank? If its not needed its actually just another point of failure.
If you provided accurate info in post #5 regarding a check valve then your plumber is wrong
Wait a minute... "house expansion tank? you had 2 x tanks ? that sounds lame maybe you did leave something out
Yes there has always been a larger expansion tank. WH was installed and that plumber installed a small one above it. New plumber said it was not needed at WH because I had one on water line already.
 
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