Vibration Dampeners for Tankless Water Heaters

WorldPeace

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To minimize the noise stemming from the vibrations from my tankless water heater, I am intending to install vibration dampeners (aka anti-vibration mounts).

Someone had recommended Barry Controls, Series 22001 in another forum. They're $15 each.

Are there other mounts that anyone can recommend to minimize vibrations, that are better or cheaper? Would any rubber grommets suffice?
 

wwhitney

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That design is what I used to good effect for the same purpose. Don't omit the snubbing washer.

Not sure if you'll find anything better or cheaper, but if you do I'd be interested.

Cheers, Wayne
 

WorldPeace

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Fitter,

It's just the normal vibration from the unit whenever it heats the water. I guess it's coming from the fan?

The tankless is located next to a room in which people are working/studying so I want to minimize the noise as much as possible. People have recommended using vibration dampeners. So, I was hoping there might be people who had experience using them.


Where do you think its coming from piping or the unit?
 

wwhitney

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For me it was definitely the fan noise. Then fan shifts to much higher speed for a few seconds whenever a water draw stops, presumably to offset the sudden cessation of cooling from water flow as it cuts off the gas burner. Putting it on isolators made a big difference--it had been rigidly mounted to the studs and sheathing, which I think made the wall a bit of an amplifier.

Cheers, Wayne
 

bingow

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For @WorldPeace and @wwhitney , I would consider doing the same for our 6 mo old Navien NPE-240A, but am ruling it out as not worth the uninstall/reinstall labor cost (installed by a pro; under warranty). Don't see how it can be done otherwise?
 
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bingow

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@fitter30 , 2x4 studs, drywall, uninsulated, on a concrete slab: the wall forms one end of a 2'x6' bump-out utility closet. The Navien is mounted to ⅝" thick plywood, lagged in turn to the studs. I've also considered DIY blown-in insulation from the opposite side of the wall.
 

Fitter30

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Just out of curiosity if hot water line is insulated put a rag on in grab both lines see if sound changes. If it does and have some angle iron 1/2 x1/2 or 3/4 x 3/4 over 12" long with three stainless hose clamps per piece close to the heater. This will change the harmonics of the pipe.
 
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bingow

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@fitter30 , thanks for the tip. I did a quick groping and fondling of the insulated hot water line while the internal circulating pump was on and saw that it was in contact with a section of the CPVC PRV line, which in turn had been pushed over far enough to make contact with the wall. Later today, I'll experiment with some scrap pieces of insulating foam to lessen the contact. To reposition the pipes themselves looks like a lot of work, but I won't rule it out. Thanks again.
UPDATE: added foam pieces so that there is no contact with the wall except the foam itself, and there's maybe a subtle change for the better. It is still noticable, but tolerable. Can't see putting any serious $ into remounting. But I'm interested to see if the isolaters mentioned above help. Thanks again.
 
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tomas1853

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To minimize the noise stemming from the vibrations from my tankless water heater, I am intending to install vibration dampeners (aka anti-vibration mounts).

Someone had recommended Barry Controls, Series 22001 in another forum. They're $15 each.

Are there other mounts that anyone can recommend to minimize vibrations, that are better or cheaper? Would any rubber grommets suffice?
Hello! Did you ever have any luck with the Barry Control mounts for your tankless water heater? And do you possibly have a link for the product? Because I checked series 22001 and multiple different sound dampeners come up. Thanks so much!
 

Deuce24

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That design is what I used to good effect for the same purpose. Don't omit the snubbing washer.

Not sure if you'll find anything better or cheaper, but if you do I'd be interested.

Cheers, Wayne
Hi, old thread but I’m a homeowner and want to add anti vibration pads to my water heater too like the OP. In regards to the snubbing washer, does the Barry’s Controls dampener come with the proper washer? Or is that something I can buy from Lowe’s? Looking for a recommendation so I don’t mess anything up, thank you!
 

wwhitney

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In regards to the snubbing washer, does the Barry’s Controls dampener come with the proper washer?
No.

Or is that something I can buy from Lowe’s?
Yes, a properly sized fender washer would work.

What you need is something that is large enough in outer diameter that if all the rubber components of the isolator were to disintegrate, the remaining metal parts would still be interlocked, and the tankless water heater won't fall off the wall. But with the rubber intact, the load path has to depend on the rubber in order for the isolator to work, you can't have tight contact from equipment bracket to metal to support structure.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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Deuce24

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No.


Yes, a properly sized fender washer would work.

What you need is something that is large enough in outer diameter that if all the rubber components of the isolator were to disintegrate, the remaining metal parts would still be interlocked, and the tankless water heater won't fall off the wall. But with the rubber intact, the load path has to depend on the rubber in order for the isolator to work, you can't have tight contact from equipment bracket to metal to support structure.

Cheers, Wayne
Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Yeah right now it is just 4 screws straight into some stucco anchors. I ordered some of the antivibration mounts so I'll get some washers and install it all this weekend. Thanks again for the input.
 

wwhitney

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This sort of vibration isolation is primarily useful to reduce sound transmission into the building structure and then inside, it won't do much to reduce sound transmission through the outside air.

Can someone please link the product? There are so many models listed on this page: https://novibration.com/products/bonded-tube-mounts-22000-series/
As for which product, possibly the smallest size listed on that page. Look at the load ratings link, and then:

Assuming you've got 4 bolts holding the water heater in, what you need to do is determine the vertical load (which is radial on a horizontal bolt) and horizontal load (which is axial on such a bolt) on each bolt. If the water heater weighs 60 lbs, then the vertical (radial) load is 15 lbs on each bolt. As to the horizontal (axial) load, say the center of mass of the unit is 4" in front of the plane of the mounting brackets, and say the mounting brackets are 24" apart vertically. Then the moment is 4*60 = 240 in-lbs, and each pair of vertically space bolts (left and right) would need to resist 120 in-lbs. At 24" apart, those bolts would only see 120/24 = 5 lbs each.

So do that calculation using the actual values for your water heater, and select a mount that is rated somewhat above, but not way above, the axial and radial loads. You also need the natural frequency to be quite a bit lower than the frequency of the sound you are trying to isolate, so figure out that frequency (e.g. if it is the fan, look up the fan speed, or maybe just use an app on your phone to analyze the spectrum of the sound the unit is making). As you won't be loading the mounts to the full rating, the natural frequency of your configuration won't match the rated natural frequency on the spec sheet, but as long as the loading is close, the natural frequency is close. So that's one reason you want a natural frequency much lower than the frequency you want to isolate, to allow for that error.

[If it were desirable to more closely match the rated axial and radial loads, and the radial load is quite a bit lower than the rating, you could increase the radial load by cantilevering the unit farther off the rigid portion of your mounting system, i.e. using a spacer block and longer bolts. Just something to consider and maybe figure out if your first attempt is not producing good results and you know the actual axial load is much less than rated.]

Same for snubbing washer, which one should I buy? https://novibration.com/products/washers/
The snubbing washer just needs to be a sufficiently thick fender washer whose ID will pass the bolt you use, but not the bolt head, and whose OD is large enough that it won't pass through the hole through which the rubber passes.

Also, I'm a novice. Can someone please explain how I'd use this? I have a tankless water heater mounted on a block of wood which is mounted on the wall.
If you want to use a tube mount like those shown, what you need to do is rigidly mount a solid (probably metal) bar on standoffs to your structure. The bar thickness would be dictated by the tube mount you use (or rather the tube mount selected to match your bar thickness), and you'd drill a fairly large hole in the bar at each bolt location, again of the proper size for your tube mount. Then IIRC each tube mount is two pieces, rubber on the outside with a solid metal cylinder down the middle. The two rubber pieces go into the hole, one from each side, and the bolt goes down the metal cylinder in the middle. The item mounting bracket is under the bolt head against one end of the rubber tube (which is skinnier in the middle in the part inside the hole in the bar), and the end of the bolt receives the snubber washer and a nut (hence the need for the space behind the bar, so those components don't contact the building). The result is that the bracket, bolt, snubber washer, nut, and tube mount metal cylinder are all in contact, but that assembly is not directly in contact with the rigidly mounted metal bar anywhere, they are separated by all the rubber components which provide the springiness that leads to isolation.

Hope this helps, that's what I remember from doing this just a couple times in the last 20 years.

Cheers, Wayne
 

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Fellow Isolaters, first off thank you for all you the knowledge captured here. I just had a Navien 240A2 installed and the post purge fan is making a very loud noise / vibration at around 75 Hz. This lasts for at least 90 seconds every time the unit ignites. My plumber came back a week later and installed theses Diversitech E.V.A pads ($20 on Amazon) between the wall and the brackets on the unit. It’s now offset from the wall and it required a minimum amount of re-plumbing. The result is a -12 dB reduction in the kitchen downstairs. We can still hear it but it’s tolerable now. Next step it to try and find a sound / vibration absorption blanket or pads to further reduce the vibrations.
I’ll keep this post updated.
Henrik
 

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Bannerman

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Next step it to try and find a sound / vibration absorption blanket or pads to further reduce the vibrations.
Vibration maybe being transferred to the exhaust, combustion air, gas supply and plumbing piping, so you may want to inspect all pipes to ensure none are in direct contact with walls, studs, joists or other building components. If the pipes are in direct contact with building components, vibration transferred to the building may seem to be amplified as it is transferred and travels throughout the building.
 
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quietplace

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Fellow Isolaters, first off thank you for all you the knowledge captured here. I just had a Navien 240A2 installed and the post purge fan is making a very loud noise / vibration at around 75 Hz. This lasts for at least 90 seconds every time the unit ignites. My plumber came back a week later and installed theses Diversitech E.V.A pads ($20 on Amazon) between the wall and the brackets on the unit. It’s now offset from the wall and it required a minimum amount of re-plumbing. The result is a -12 dB reduction in the kitchen downstairs. We can still hear it but it’s tolerable now. Next step it to try and find a sound / vibration absorption blanket or pads to further reduce the vibrations.
I’ll keep this post updated.
Henrik
Would you recommend these? https://www.amazon.com/Diversitech-MP4-V-Anti-Vibration-Pack/dp/B00BVEMLR4/ref=sr_1_1

Also - did you find any other solution to further reduce the noise?

I'm considering layering:
drywall -> MLV -> E.V.A pads -> metal bracket -> water heater

(and using neoprene washers)
 

Fastsvo

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Is there a pic out there showing the mounting of these Barry Controls rubber mounts?

Is adding 2x3 lumber as a mounting pad + rubber isolator help as well on drywall?
 
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