Two-pipe system question

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Mikejurasw

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Hey all,

I'm a diy'er/homeowner with a decent amount of experience. Our house (1920's vintage) has a boiler and cast iron radiators with a two-pipe system. A total of 15 or so radiators over three floors.

There are three which are not heating (but used to) clustered near each other (two on the third floor separated by a wall; these one floor above the third one).

All 15 had new valves and steam traps within the last 10 years.

Does a steam riser/"branch" somehow fail? Get blocked or clogged? Is it just coincidence that they're all in one area?

I replaced the steam trap on one just now and addressed what seemed like a back-slope away from the trap, but no dramatic recovery of heat.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Happy Holidays!
Mike in Ohio
 

Fitter30

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Check the valve make sure it's open. Take a pic of the radiator opposite end of the shut off valve piping. Want to see the trap.
 
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Mikejurasw

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Well, the "two-pipe" system doesn't use those. The second pipe is a return back into the floor and down to the furnace again. Plus, what I'm really wondering is whether the steam supply is making it to the radiator in the first place. Does anyone know what I should be feeling/seeing/hearing if detach the supply valve from the radiator and let 'er rip?

Thanks!
MM
 

Fitter30

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Well, the "two-pipe" system doesn't use those. The second pipe is a return back into the floor and down to the furnace again. Plus, what I'm really wondering is whether the steam supply is making it to the radiator in the first place. Does anyone know what I should be feeling/seeing/hearing if detach the supply valve from the radiator and let 'er rip?

Thanks!
MM
I know they don't use air vent. Would turn the boiler off let pressure drop to 0 take the top of trap off, inspect the element. Element should be open. Have a shop vac and some towels in case there is water. Without looking at the piping system could be piped in different ways. First floor piped loop around perimeter. Second and third piped together with multiple risers. Risers would be running up common pipe chases in walls or a small bump out.
 

John Gayewski

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Those traps likley need replaced. If one went out it could easily cause others near by to go out. You should be able to rebuild them and check for gunk.
 

DJ Metal

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FWIW, My In-Law's 130 year old house has steam heat, my late father in law used to run Lye thru the system a couple times a year to clean it out and keep it clean, that was how they always cleaned out steam systems back in the day, something nobody seems to know anything about nowadays.

The old boiler lasted the 55 years that he was alive in the house and was probably installed in the 1910's or 20's.
Installed a new boiler 16 years ago shortly after he passed away and now I get stuck doing the lye cycling for my 98 year old MIL. lol

Somewhere along the return line there should be a fitting or plug, find that, shut your boiler, then drain the entire boiler, remove the plug (you may have to heat it up with a propane torch to get it loose!), mix lye in a gallon of warm water to dissolve it (you can buy lye at any hardware store or home improvement store, some plumbing supply houses stock it for this purpose, use a funnel to pour the water with lye in, refill the system the rest of the way back to it's normal water level, then run the system for at least an hour, just so that the lye has time to circulate thru as much as it can, shut system, let it all drain back into the boiler for at least 1 hour and cool off, then drain boiler again, than refill the boiler again, repeat with another bucket of lye if the water was really dark orange and heavily rusted and repeat as many as three or four times.

Here's another free tip that I learned with steam heating;
You should NEVER shut ANY radiator shut off valves in a steam system, or else the pressure can build up in the pipe leading to that radiator and cause a pipe or connection or fitting to burst, which always makes me wonder WHY do they even put shut off valves on steam radiators and not just a union to connect them?

And another free tip that I also learned;
The little steam valves should always be on the opposite side from the side the shut off valve is installed and the side with the shut off vale SHOULD be slightly higher than the side with the steam valve and the steam valve should be cleaned every year or two, if they get blocked with dust that can fail to let heat rise, because the air can't escape and you end up with cold rads.

I have also read that you can take a steam valve off, blow in it's threaded end and if nothing comes out it's air hole, it's obviously clogged.

You can try to unclog it with a needle, or if that doesn't work, by boiling it in a pot of 1 cup of water with one cup of vinegar and a teaspoon of salt and letting it boil for at least 20 mins., remove from pot, allow it to cool off and than try blowing thru it's threaded end again. You can boil more than one at a time if need be.

If air comes out, it's clean, reinstall it, if not you have to replace it, use a thread compound intended for steam heating/steam rads, plumbers tape will most likely melt and some compounds will give off terrible fumes if used on steam rads.

There are different steam valves for different locations in a house or building, it depends upon how far a rad from the boiler or how many flights up it is.

There used to be a few charts online for reference, you can probably google "Steam Valve Locations", or something to that effect to find a good one, but i will provide a link for one chart I just found.

BTW, Maid 0 Mist seem to be everyone's go to brand for steam valves over the cheap chinese ones.


Just to keep the system clean, once a week I go down to the cellar and drain at least 1 or 2 gallons out of the upper valve on the side of the boiler to "skim" off the top, and than another gallon or two from the bottom drain valve until any rusty/dirty water stops coming out, than I refill it and dump the bucket.

If you still don't get heat to the rads you said don't heat up, you might have to disconnect each rad, remove the shut off valve (which shouldn't be closed) at each rad, pour lye right down the pipe from each location and flush them out with a bucket of lye that way, but I've also heard of guy's using a bicycle pump at each rad to use air pressure to force a clog out, but you have to drain the entire system and leave valves open to blow the junk out.

Also, inspect where each pipe goes up towards each radiator if possible and make sure you don't see any water coming down any transoms where a pipe is.

We had a leak in a wall where an old connector for two pipes going to the second floor rotted thru, what a hassle it was to open the wall, remove the pipe from the rad's shut off valve, remove the leaky connector and I replaced it with a union, just in case I ever have to go back into that wall again and than patch the hole up, sand, prime and paint the wall.
Took me a day and a half.

Good luck!
 

John Gayewski

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FWIW, My In-Law's 130 year old house has steam heat, my late father in law used to run Lye thru the system a couple times a year to clean it out and keep it clean, that was how they always cleaned out steam systems back in the day, something nobody seems to know anything about nowadays.

The old boiler lasted the 55 years that he was alive in the house and was probably installed in the 1910's or 20's.
Installed a new boiler 16 years ago shortly after he passed away and now I get stuck doing the lye cycling for my 98 year old MIL. lol

Somewhere along the return line there should be a fitting or plug, find that, shut your boiler, then drain the entire boiler, remove the plug (you may have to heat it up with a propane torch to get it loose!), mix lye in a gallon of warm water to dissolve it (you can buy lye at any hardware store or home improvement store, some plumbing supply houses stock it for this purpose, use a funnel to pour the water with lye in, refill the system the rest of the way back to it's normal water level, then run the system for at least an hour, just so that the lye has time to circulate thru as much as it can, shut system, let it all drain back into the boiler for at least 1 hour and cool off, then drain boiler again, than refill the boiler again, repeat with another bucket of lye if the water was really dark orange and heavily rusted and repeat as many as three or four times.

Here's another free tip that I learned with steam heating;
You should NEVER shut ANY radiator shut off valves in a steam system, or else the pressure can build up in the pipe leading to that radiator and cause a pipe or connection or fitting to burst, which always makes me wonder WHY do they even put shut off valves on steam radiators and not just a union to connect them?

And another free tip that I also learned;
The little steam valves should always be on the opposite side from the side the shut off valve is installed and the side with the shut off vale SHOULD be slightly higher than the side with the steam valve and the steam valve should be cleaned every year or two, if they get blocked with dust that can fail to let heat rise, because the air can't escape and you end up with cold rads.

I have also read that you can take a steam valve off, blow in it's threaded end and if nothing comes out it's air hole, it's obviously clogged.

You can try to unclog it with a needle, or if that doesn't work, by boiling it in a pot of 1 cup of water with one cup of vinegar and a teaspoon of salt and letting it boil for at least 20 mins., remove from pot, allow it to cool off and than try blowing thru it's threaded end again. You can boil more than one at a time if need be.

If air comes out, it's clean, reinstall it, if not you have to replace it, use a thread compound intended for steam heating/steam rads, plumbers tape will most likely melt and some compounds will give off terrible fumes if used on steam rads.

There are different steam valves for different locations in a house or building, it depends upon how far a rad from the boiler or how many flights up it is.

There used to be a few charts online for reference, you can probably google "Steam Valve Locations", or something to that effect to find a good one, but i will provide a link for one chart I just found.

BTW, Maid 0 Mist seem to be everyone's go to brand for steam valves over the cheap chinese ones.


Just to keep the system clean, once a week I go down to the cellar and drain at least 1 or 2 gallons out of the upper valve on the side of the boiler to "skim" off the top, and than another gallon or two from the bottom drain valve until any rusty/dirty water stops coming out, than I refill it and dump the bucket.

If you still don't get heat to the rads you said don't heat up, you might have to disconnect each rad, remove the shut off valve (which shouldn't be closed) at each rad, pour lye right down the pipe from each location and flush them out with a bucket of lye that way, but I've also heard of guy's using a bicycle pump at each rad to use air pressure to force a clog out, but you have to drain the entire system and leave valves open to blow the junk out.

Also, inspect where each pipe goes up towards each radiator if possible and make sure you don't see any water coming down any transoms where a pipe is.

We had a leak in a wall where an old connector for two pipes going to the second floor rotted thru, what a hassle it was to open the wall, remove the pipe from the rad's shut off valve, remove the leaky connector and I replaced it with a union, just in case I ever have to go back into that wall again and than patch the hole up, sand, prime and paint the wall.
Took me a day and a half.

Good luck!
I think your mixing up single pipe and two pipe steam. Two pipe has steam traps that let the water out and return back. They don't even need sloped if engineered correctly. The steam pressure can push the water out when the trap opens.
 

Fitter30

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Never in 42 years running commercial and industrial service and installation of both water and steam boilers to 150 lbs. Early 1970s used Borax detergent to cook a new steam boiler out.Then about mid 80's started using trisodium phosphate either liquid or powder. Sodium hydroxide is lye manufactures on the list of cleaning agent is a alternative. Residential boilers are not made like a boiler 50 years ago the castings are thinner and hold less water. Closing a valve at a radiator doesn't matter if it water or steam it will not build pressure over the system pressure if steam or pump dead head pressure. What can happen in a steam system is pipe hammer cause from sudden condensation of the steam. That can break fittings. In a design system a cold system at startup till everything gets hot or a main vent has stopped working. Skimming the top of the water off should be done first then the bottom drain valves and sight glass if dirty. Steam boiler with a boiler water treatment that has a oxygen scavenger will keep corrosion to a minimum. Oxygen rich water will eat a hole through cast or steel tube boiler in short order. Steam boiler priming ( water in sight glass is bouncing rapidly) cause dirt or oil where there is a film that holds the steam in and then blows a hole in the film and carries water with it into the steam header then falls back down.
 
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Sylvan

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FWIW, My In-Law's 130 year old house has steam heat, my late father in law used to run Lye thru the system a couple times a year to clean it out and keep it clean, that was how they always cleaned out steam systems back in the day, something nobody seems to know anything about nowadays.

The old boiler lasted the 55 years that he was alive in the house and was probably installed in the 1910's or 20's.
Installed a new boiler 16 years ago shortly after he passed away and now I get stuck doing the lye cycling for my 98 year old MIL. lol

Somewhere along the return line there should be a fitting or plug, find that, shut your boiler, then drain the entire boiler, remove the plug (you may have to heat it up with a propane torch to get it loose!), mix lye in a gallon of warm water to dissolve it (you can buy lye at any hardware store or home improvement store, some plumbing supply houses stock it for this purpose, use a funnel to pour the water with lye in, refill the system the rest of the way back to it's normal water level, then run the system for at least an hour, just so that the lye has time to circulate thru as much as it can, shut system, let it all drain back into the boiler for at least 1 hour and cool off, then drain boiler again, than refill the boiler again, repeat with another bucket of lye if the water was really dark orange and heavily rusted and repeat as many as three or four times.

Here's another free tip that I learned with steam heating;
You should NEVER shut ANY radiator shut off valves in a steam system, or else the pressure can build up in the pipe leading to that radiator and cause a pipe or connection or fitting to burst, which always makes me wonder WHY do they even put shut off valves on steam radiators and not just a union to connect them?

And another free tip that I also learned;
The little steam valves should always be on the opposite side from the side the shut off valve is installed and the side with the shut off vale SHOULD be slightly higher than the side with the steam valve and the steam valve should be cleaned every year or two, if they get blocked with dust that can fail to let heat rise, because the air can't escape and you end up with cold rads.

I have also read that you can take a steam valve off, blow in it's threaded end and if nothing comes out it's air hole, it's obviously clogged.

You can try to unclog it with a needle, or if that doesn't work, by boiling it in a pot of 1 cup of water with one cup of vinegar and a teaspoon of salt and letting it boil for at least 20 mins., remove from pot, allow it to cool off and than try blowing thru it's threaded end again. You can boil more than one at a time if need be.

If air comes out, it's clean, reinstall it, if not you have to replace it, use a thread compound intended for steam heating/steam rads, plumbers tape will most likely melt and some compounds will give off terrible fumes if used on steam rads.

There are different steam valves for different locations in a house or building, it depends upon how far a rad from the boiler or how many flights up it is.

There used to be a few charts online for reference, you can probably google "Steam Valve Locations", or something to that effect to find a good one, but i will provide a link for one chart I just found.

BTW, Maid 0 Mist seem to be everyone's go to brand for steam valves over the cheap chinese ones.


Just to keep the system clean, once a week I go down to the cellar and drain at least 1 or 2 gallons out of the upper valve on the side of the boiler to "skim" off the top, and than another gallon or two from the bottom drain valve until any rusty/dirty water stops coming out, than I refill it and dump the bucket.

If you still don't get heat to the rads you said don't heat up, you might have to disconnect each rad, remove the shut off valve (which shouldn't be closed) at each rad, pour lye right down the pipe from each location and flush them out with a bucket of lye that way, but I've also heard of guy's using a bicycle pump at each rad to use air pressure to force a clog out, but you have to drain the entire system and leave valves open to blow the junk out.

Also, inspect where each pipe goes up towards each radiator if possible and make sure you don't see any water coming down any transoms where a pipe is.

We had a leak in a wall where an old connector for two pipes going to the second floor rotted thru, what a hassle it was to open the wall, remove the pipe from the rad's shut off valve, remove the leaky connector and I replaced it with a union, just in case I ever have to go back into that wall again and than patch the hole up, sand, prime and paint the wall.
Took me a day and a half.

Good luck!
WOW, you could have been an expert witness :)
I was called as an Expert witness on this case (settled this year)


Most of the fake news media stated "radiator exploded"

The truth can now be told


I went to the Brooklyn police property clerks' building with a team of another expert in their field
The truth can now be told that the angle valve was halfway open on a one-pipe steam system
The first problem condensate trapped from returning to the boiler
The second problem was steam was going to the radiator, where the condensate did not fully drain

The third problem, Hydraulic shock wave, was caused when the steam hit the condensate block, causing the CHEAP air vent to separate from the old radiator, allowing steam to spew inside the bedroom

The fake news outlets NEVER asked any expert what they found. One news outlet lied, and the rest added their own lies to the story as none would dare let the facts get in the way.

See the threads were compromised, and the shock wave blew the air vent off

My office received over 300 calls asking if their radiators were safe as the Lying news media in NY caused a panic

 

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Sylvan

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FWIW, My In-Law's 130 year old house has steam heat, my late father in law used to run Lye thru the system a couple times a year to clean it out and keep it clean, that was how they always cleaned out steam systems back in the day, something nobody seems to know anything about nowadays.

The old boiler lasted the 55 years that he was alive in the house and was probably installed in the 1910's or 20's.
Installed a new boiler 16 years ago shortly after he passed away and now I get stuck doing the lye cycling for my 98 year old MIL. lol

Somewhere along the return line there should be a fitting or plug, find that, shut your boiler, then drain the entire boiler, remove the plug (you may have to heat it up with a propane torch to get it loose!), mix lye in a gallon of warm water to dissolve it (you can buy lye at any hardware store or home improvement store, some plumbing supply houses stock it for this purpose, use a funnel to pour the water with lye in, refill the system the rest of the way back to it's normal water level, then run the system for at least an hour, just so that the lye has time to circulate thru as much as it can, shut system, let it all drain back into the boiler for at least 1 hour and cool off, then drain boiler again, than refill the boiler again, repeat with another bucket of lye if the water was really dark orange and heavily rusted and repeat as many as three or four times.

Here's another free tip that I learned with steam heating;
You should NEVER shut ANY radiator shut off valves in a steam system, or else the pressure can build up in the pipe leading to that radiator and cause a pipe or connection or fitting to burst,
<<< Most steam boilers operate under 3 PSI so the idea of steam building up is moot if the operating controllers are set properly


which always makes me wonder WHY do they even put shut off valves on steam radiators and not just a union to connect them? <<<< Because steam is not like a HW system if the radiator valve is shut in case of an emergency it will stop the supply to the radiator A HW system the valves are designed to always have flow so the water circulates and helps prevent freezing so "closing" the valve will still cause a flood if the unions are disconnected.


v
And another free tip that I also learned;
The little steam valves should always be on the opposite side from the side the shut off valve is installed and the side with the shut off vale SHOULD be slightly higher than the side with the steam valve and the steam valve should be cleaned every year or two, if they get blocked with dust that can fail to let heat rise, because the air can't escape and you end up with cold rads.

I have also read that you can take a steam valve off, blow in it's threaded end and if nothing comes out it's air hole, it's obviously clogged.<<< YIKES doing this while the system is on killed two girls in Hunts point . One of my FIRED employees was not sure if there was steam so he removed the Hoffman 40 steam shot out scalding his hand and destroying the 3rd floor living room at 1650 3rd ave Manhattan, the fire department was called as someone saw steam and thought it was smoke

You can try to unclog it with a needle, or if that doesn't work, by boiling it in a pot of 1 cup of water with one cup of vinegar and a teaspoon of salt and letting it boil for at least 20 mins., remove from pot, allow it to cool off and than try blowing thru it's threaded end again. You can boil more than one at a time if need be.

If air comes out, it's clean, reinstall it, if not you have to replace it, use a thread compound intended for steam heating/steam rads, plumbers tape will most likely melt and some compounds will give off terrible fumes if used on steam rads.

There are different steam valves for different locations in a house or building, it depends upon how far a rad from the boiler or how many flights up it is.

There used to be a few charts online for reference, you can probably google "Steam Valve Locations", or something to that effect to find a good one, but i will provide a link for one chart I just found.

BTW, Maid 0 Mist seem to be everyone's go to brand for steam valves over the cheap chinese ones.<<<< Actually I like Hoffman 1A Adjustable Single Pipe Steam Radiator Air Vent to balance the system or just the Hoffman #40




Just to keep the system clean, once a week I go down to the cellar and drain at least 1 or 2 gallons out of the upper valve on the side of the boiler to "skim" off the top, and than another gallon or two from the bottom drain valve until any rusty/dirty water stops coming out, than I refill it and dump the bucket.

If you still don't get heat to the rads you said don't heat up, you might have to disconnect each rad, remove the shut off valve (which shouldn't be closed) at each rad, pour lye right down the pipe from each location and flush them out with a bucket of lye that way, but I've also heard of guy's using a bicycle pump at each rad to use air pressure to force a clog out, but you have to drain the entire system and leave valves open to blow the junk out.

Also, inspect where each pipe goes up towards each radiator if possible and make sure you don't see any water coming down any transoms where a pipe is.

We had a leak in a wall where an old connector for two pipes going to the second floor rotted thru, what a hassle it was to open the wall, remove the pipe from the rad's shut off valve, remove the leaky connector and I replaced it with a union, just in case I ever have to go back into that wall again and than patch the hole up, sand, prime and paint the wall.
Took me a day and a half.

Good luck!
I was hired for two cases one in the Bronx and the other in Brooklyn where a total of 3 toddlers died from a steam radiator mishap

The one in the Bronx was a radiator valve was partially open and I think this is when the air vent blew off scalding both girls to death

In 2016, two toddlers, Ibanez Ambrose (2) and Scylee Vayoh Ambrose (1), died after being scalded by steam from a radiator in their Bronx apartment. The incident occurred in a building on Hunts Point Avenue used as a cluster site to house homeless families. The girls were asleep in their bedroom when a valve on a radiator apparently blew off, releasing scalding steam. The parents, Danielle McGuire and Peter Ambrose, were awakened by the sound and found their daughters severely burned. The city was notified, and investigations were launched. The family later filed a lawsuit against the city

The one in Brooklyn is still working its way through the courts so I cannot go into details. If a radiator valve is closed should be prior to the heating season not when the steam is on.


https://www.bing.com/search?q=brook...2dd86412aba3408e0158286b6&clckatsg=1&hsmssg=0
 
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