trying to help my neighbor who won't listen

[James23912]

hi trying to help my neighbor remodel, he is doing his own wiring , so pretty sure it is incorrect. he is running can lights on 3 way switches in living room, he has power to switch one, then 3 wire to switch 2 but is running power to the lights from switch 1, i told him i think that is wrong, can someone confirm?

 

[bigb56]

It can be done that way, it's called line and load at the same switch and the other switch becomes a dead end 3 way. It's usually done that way when there is no other choice or in a remodel where getting multiple wires to a location might be impossible, but it does present a couple of problems. The first problem is box fill, you may end up with too many conductors in the first box (each box is limited by it's size in cubic inches to a certain number of conductors) and the second issue is a code rule that requires a neutral in every switch box. If there is no power in the second switch box this rule will be violated.

Far easier and less confusing to put power in one box and the load in the other.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[James23912]

It can be done that way, it's called line and load at the same switch and the other switch becomes a dead end 3 way. It's usually done that way when there is no other choice or in a remodel where getting multiple wires to a location might be impossible, but it does present a couple of problems. The first problem is box fill, you may end up with too many conductors in the first box (each box is limited by it's size in cubic inches to a certain number of conductors) and the second issue is a code rule that requires a neutral in every switch box. If there is no power in the second switch box this rule will be violated.

Far easier and less confusing to put power in one box and the load in the other.

Hi thanks, I didn’t think it would work correctly, but how would the three black wires go in the first box?

 

[bigb56]

More than one way to do it.

Box 1, connect black line to white in 14/3 and re-label white, connect black load to common on switch, connect white line neutral and white load neutral together, connect remaining red and black from 14/3 to traveler screws in any order.

Box 2, connect white to common after re-labeling, connect red and black to traveler screws in any order.

Alternately you could connect the line directly to the common at switch 1 and the re-labeled white from the 14/3 to the load black.

 

[James23912]

More than one way to do it.

Box 1, connect black line to white in 14/3 and re-label white, connect black load to common on switch, connect white line neutral and white load neutral together, connect remaining red and black from 14/3 to traveler screws in any order.

Box 2, connect white to common after re-labeling, connect red and black to traveler screws in any order.

Alternately you could connect the line directly to the common at switch 1 and the re-labeled white from the 14/3 to the load black.

 

[James23912]

Hi thanks. I will tell my neighbor he needs a professional, appreciate the help

 

[Fitter30]

Could use remote control light switches programmed at the same frequency. Alexa can also be used.

 

[Afjes]

Confused a bit I am.
If your neighbor is remodeling the room and the room is being rewired then why not just wire it properly?
There are several ways to wire for a 3 way setup.
Is it that your neighbor has it in his mind he will only do it his way? Is that the problem?

 

[James23912]

Yes, pretty much, he Just listens to whoever tells him something, someone i Told him to use wafer type lights in the ceiling and someone else told him he could get sued for using them so he got cans. The circuit is 14 gauge and he got 12. I had a minor tiff about it amd walked out, too bad. my very small twin has no building inspector.

one other thing, I read that this witing method he is using may not work with some dimmer switches, is that true?

 

[bigb56]

one other thing, I read that this witing method he is using may not work with some dimmer switches, is that true?

Yes, if the dimmer requires a neutral (as most ELV's do) it won't work in the box with the dead end 3 way unless there is a neutral in that box from the same circuit.

 

[bigb56]

Cans are pretty much obsolete in residential. The wafers don't penetrate your insulation barrier, have no air leakage and are easier to install.
Using #12 on a residential lighting circuit is a sure sign of a rookie. It will also result in excess box fill and difficult make up, not to mention all the fun it will be to cram dimmers and smart switches into boxes full of #12.

 

[DIYorBust]

Cans are pretty much obsolete in residential. The wafers don't penetrate your insulation barrier, have no air leakage and are easier to install.
Using #12 on a residential lighting circuit is a sure sign of a rookie. It will also result in excess box fill and difficult make up, not to mention all the fun it will be to cram dimmers and smart switches into boxes full of #12.

In NYC you can't use anything less than #12. I think if you're DIY, it's not necessarily foolish to use only 12 awg. While it's unlikely you would need a 20 amp lighting circuit today with LED lighting drawing so little current, it is also possible that receptacles could be installed on the lighting circuit. If you need to add a receptacle somewhere later, there would be a 20amp circuit available at the switch. If I were working as a pro, I'd never use #12 where I could use #14 because it costs more, and then requires larger boxes. But doing it DIY, the cost of materials is not much more, and the labor is about the same, plus you have some added flexibility if you later decide you need a 20a circuit.

I mean this is a common concept if you do DIY. If you're an electrical contract, and the job calls for lighting, and a 15a circuit is adequate for the lighting, how much extra would you pay to install #12? If it cost $20.72 less to use #14, would you do it? Of course you would, why install something more expensive than you need? But as a homeowner, would you pay $20.72? Maybe you would for future expansion.

However there's an even more compelling reason for the DIYer. An electrician surely has an inventory #14 and #12 wires, plus associated tools, breakers, wire nuts, boxes, etc. However a DIY will probably buy what they need for the project. Having just one type of wire to deal with makes things easier and reduces waste. If you buy 250 feet of #14 and 250 feet of #12, and you end up stuck with 125 feet of each, that's a waste, and who knows if you're ever gonna need it. If you buy a bunch of boxes, but half don't work on number 12, you might run out of the bigger boxes and need to make a run to the store to finish the day's work, whereas if you had all bigger boxes, you could just keep going and order some more boxes online if there weren't enough. If you always use #12, you're also more likely to have what you need when you do another project, and less likely to accumulate deadstock in your basement.

Anyway that said I have no idea what this dude is up to, or if he knows what he's doing. But just saying it might not be crazy, it's hard to say without knowing what problems he's trying to solve and why he made those decisions.