Trying to get Twin Clack WS1 10x54 up and running

[abestophat]

I will apologize for the long post but think a little history may be worthwhile on how I got to this point.

I moved into a home last year that has a (2) Clack WS1 heads with 10x54 tanks, brine tank, 300 gallon water tank with Matala HK-25LP aerator for diffuser inside tank. The home was sold with this supposed $10k system ready to go. It wasn't until I was too far into the home purchase (and selling my other home as well) that I realized the water purification system wasn't online and there was no media in the filter tanks whatsoever. We had the water tested 2x and it was pristine so we didn't see a need to spend the money to pay the company that installed the system to re-bed the filters and left the system in bypass for the better part of a year. When the shelter-in-place orders came down the pipe, we actually thought about selling the system as we were in the middle of building a pool and could have used some extra cash. We called the company that had their stickers on the Clack WS1 filter heads and they came out and ran the system to see what it would take to get it back up. They quoted $650 to re-bed one filter (said I didn't need the other filter because our water was already soft) and $1400 to replace the Grundfos MQ3-45 booster pump that was short-cycling as well as install a new diffuser system (apparently 3 heads instead of the current 1 in the 300gal tank) and a larger aerator. The diffusers and aerator change was their method to guarantee sulfur smell H2S removal. Their quote complete was quite shocking. The technician did offer some good advice and said I shouldn't sell the system because the water could change and that I'd never get out of it near what it was worth.

Low and behold a few months ago our water started smelling horrible. I poured 3 gallons of germicidal bleach down into the well in an attempt to kill the bacteria that produces the H2S smell. It may work for a while albeit our water now has trace of bleach smell. My wife thinks it is better than the alternative and I agree. Since I had this 10k piece of furniture out in the garage, I decided that I can try and get it up-and-running. After dismantling and cleaning the MQ3-45 and also removing the diaphragm under the board to repeatedly adjust pressures, I came to the conclusion that the pump is bad and ordered a replacement. It goes off and kicks back on when there is still clearly a need for water. I was able to easily screw the filter heads off and discovered, as the tech indicated, that they were both empty of media/resin and full of water. I ordered 1CF bag of Purolite C100E resin for one tank and 1.5CF bag of Katalox Light KL-10 Filter Media for the second tank and I'm awaiting their delivery.

I would appreciate some input/clarification on a few items:
1. Do I need to make any programming changes to the filter head for the two different types of media?

2. Do I hook both filter tanks up to the brine tank by means of a tee/wye? I'm fearful if I do this, they will both put too much water into the brine tank. How do I program the filter heads for this scenario if it is possible?

3. Will the Katalox light KL-10 work well for this type system? I intend to install very small crushed rock in the tank only up to the diffuser/filter that sticks into the top of the filter tank just past the tank bottom invert.

4. Shall I plan to install .5CF of fine rock below the 1CF Purolite as the 10x54 tank is for 1.5cf media? Or will just a little bit of rock up past the invert to cover the diffuser/filter be sufficient?

5. Does it matter which filter media/resin is first in the line? Water comes from my well pressure tank to the system, through the 2 filter heads, into the 300gal tank and then to the booster pump that pumps through the house.

6. I have noticed that when I close/open the system bypass valve (my entire system has a bypass valve) my hot water heater tanks gurgle and the well pressure tank oddly clicks. Any idea what this is and is it detrimental to any components (water heaters, purification system, etc.)?

7. Is there anything I should watch out for when I start the filter heads up? I have seen online videos on the slow opening of the filter tank head outlet valve but not sure if there will be any other surprises.

Much Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

No comment on most of your issues, but...

Low and behold a few months ago our water started smelling horrible. I poured 3 gallons of germicidal bleach down into the well in an attempt to kill the bacteria that produces the H2S smell. It may work for a while albeit our water now has trace of bleach smell.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my well and plumbing sanitizing writeup, in case you want to sanitize again. The effect should last longer. This writeup is aimed at bottom-feeding wells. For other wells, other options open up. For example, if your well is larger diameter, there are pellets (and maybe acid) that you can drop to the bottom around the pump. I still think that the flooding volume should help. Also, if there is more H2S in the hot water, there are ways of dealing with that in addition to the sanitizing.

Does it matter which filter media/resin is first in the line?

Yes; KL before softener.
I don't see where your atmospheric tank enters the sequence. I don't know where that should be if it is needed. I would think before KL and softener. You probably implied that. A submersible in your 300 gallon tank would be quieter and would probably take less power. Your pressure tank seemed to be failing,

Water comes from my well pressure tank to the system, through the 2 filter heads, into the 300gal tank and then to the booster pump that pumps through the house.

To me, it's a shame to have an atmospheric tank because the well pump is insufficient. That's a place for stuff to grow. Others are less skittish about atmosperic tanks, and there are many times where they are the right solution. So does your well suck dry at times?

Shall I plan to install .5CF of fine rock below the 1CF Purolite as the 10x54 tank is for 1.5cf media? Or will just a little bit of rock up past the invert to cover the diffuser/filter be sufficient?

Interesting question. I would tend to think the regular 15 lbs of gravel, which fills the bottom dome, would be sufficient.

6. I have noticed that when I close/open the system bypass valve (my entire system has a bypass valve) my hot water heater tanks gurgle and the well pressure tank oddly clicks. Any idea what this is and is it detrimental to any components (water heaters, purification system, etc.)?

Sounds like it could be air or other gas. There is a way to release gases in pipe if it becomes irritating.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[abestophat]

Yes; KL before softener.
I don't see where your atmospheric tank enters the sequence. I don't know where that should be if it is needed. I would think before KL and softener. You probably implied that. A submersible in your 300 gallon tank would be quieter and would probably take less power. Your pressure tank seemed to be failing,

Thanks for the input!
The 300 gallon water holding tank is downstream from the filters. Water exits the bottom of the tank to the suction of the booster pump and discharges through the house when placed into service. The well pressure tank is at the very front end of the system and has been operating fine at 60psi. We had it checked out and pressure increased when we started bypassing the system. A submersible may have been an option but I'm too far into it and the plumbing is already there for the existing set up. Thanks Again!

 

[Bannerman]

Very odd to have equipment containing no media. Media should only fill approx 2/3 of each tank height so just because you see only water near the top of each tank does not mean media is not present.

A water softener is not a filter but will remove hardness minerals using an ion exchange process which will remove hardness mineral ions (mostly calcium and Magnesium) and exchange them with sodium ions. Salt brine is utilized to regenerate a water softener's hardness removal capacity which is why the brine tank will be needed for the water softener, not the filter.

A 10" X 54" is appropriate for 1.5 ft3 of media + 15 pounds of bedding gravel. Bedding gravel should be used in both the water softener and the Katalox Light filter.

Do you have a current water lab test report to post?

 

[abestophat]

Very odd to have equipment containing no media. Media should only fill approx 2/3 of each tank height so just because you see only water near the top of each tank does not mean media is not present.

A water softener is not a filter but will remove hardness minerals using an ion exchange process which will remove hardness mineral ions (mostly calcium and Magnesium) and exchange them with sodium ions. Salt brine is utilized to regenerate a water softener's hardness removal capacity which is why the brine tank will be needed for the water softener, not the filter.

A 10" X 54" is appropriate for 1.5 ft3 of media + 15 pounds of bedding gravel. Bedding gravel should be used in both the water softener and the Katalox Light filter.

Do you have a current water lab test report to post?

Yes very odd to have equipment containing no media. I got the story when the purification company lab tech came out. The previous owner had moved from another house where he had purchased this system and asked the purification company to put the equipment into storage until he had a new home. The purification company didn't know how long the tanks would be in storage so they removed all resin/media. When the homeowner called to get his system reinstalled in his new house (now my house) he discovered they removed the filter media and was likely sticker shocked and upset at the cost to re-bed the filters at 650-700 each and told them not to worry about it. Unfortunately I don't have a lab test report but had the water tested by the well company that serviced the pressure tank as well as the purification company that reviewed the system in April. Sorry I got my descriptions mixed up. Do you know how I should plumb the tanks? Do I need to do both with brine or just the one with Purolite? Sounds like only this one may be necessary?

 

[abestophat]

Yes very odd to have equipment containing no media. I got the story when the purification company lab tech came out. The previous owner had moved from another house where he had purchased this system and asked the purification company to put the equipment into storage until he had a new home. The purification company didn't know how long the tanks would be in storage so they removed all resin/media. When the homeowner called to get his system reinstalled in his new house (now my house) he discovered they removed the filter media and was likely sticker shocked and upset at the cost to re-bed the filters at 650-700 each and told them not to worry about it. Unfortunately I don't have a lab test report but had the water tested by the well company that serviced the pressure tank as well as the purification company that reviewed the system in April. Sorry I got my descriptions mixed up. Do you know how I should plumb the tanks? Do I need to do both with brine or just the one with Purolite? Sounds like only this one may be necessary?

The tanks are empty. I've removed them and dumped them out and only trace media (like a couple of ounces) from previous removal is in there.

 

[Reach4]

The 300 gallon water holding tank is downstream from the filters. Water exits the bottom of the tank to the suction of the booster pump and discharges through the house when placed into service. The well pressure tank is at the very front end of the system and has been operating fine at 60psi. We had it checked out and pressure increased when we started bypassing the system. A submersible may have been an option but I'm too far into it and the plumbing is already there for the existing set up.

For 10x54 tanks, with the KL you will want about 8 gpm for the backwash. For the softener, it is 2.4 gpm. Check the DLFC buttons to see what you have. For the KL, I would test the flow by filling a 5 gallon bucket in 37.5 seconds. Some valves and piping cannot deliver 8 gpm.

Come to think of it, can your well pump deliver 8 gpm for backwashing?

• If not, the KL won't work before the atmospheric tank.
• If so, why do you have an atmospheric tank?

 

[abestophat]

For 10x54 tanks, with the KL you will want about 8 gpm for the backwash. For the softener, it is 2.4 gpm. Check the DLFC buttons to see what you have. For the KL, I would test the flow by filling a 5 gallon bucket in 37.5 seconds. Some valves and piping cannot deliver 8 gpm.

Come to think of it, can your well pump deliver 8 gpm for backwashing?

• If not, the KL won't work before the atmospheric tank.
• If so, why do you have an atmospheric tank?

[/QUOTEI think the well pump can deliver 8gpm for backwashing but I'll check with a couple 5 gallon buckets.

For 10x54 tanks, with the KL you will want about 8 gpm for the backwash. For the softener, it is 2.4 gpm. Check the DLFC buttons to see what you have. For the KL, I would test the flow by filling a 5 gallon bucket in 37.5 seconds. Some valves and piping cannot deliver 8 gpm.

Come to think of it, can your well pump deliver 8 gpm for backwashing?

• If not, the KL won't work before the atmospheric tank.
• If so, why do you have an atmospheric tank?

I think the well pump / pressure tank will delivery 8 gpm for backwashing. I will check with a couple 5 gallon buckets to be sure. The atmospheric tank came with the purchase of the house and is already plumbed. By the looks of how the 2 water heaters are situated and very close together, I'm pretty confident the pressure tank was added by one previous owner after the house was built and then the last homeowner before me brought over his purification system with the atmospheric tank. From talking with the local purification company this was their only guaranteed way to remove the sulfur smell. Of course now they want to add a larger aerator and install a new diffuser assembly with (3) diffusers in lieu of the (1) I have currently.

 

[Reach4]

I think the well pump / pressure tank will delivery 8 gpm for backwashing. I will check with a couple 5 gallon buckets to be sure. The atmospheric tank came with the purchase of the house and is already plumbed. By the looks of how the 2 water heaters are situated and very close together, I'm pretty confident the pressure tank was added by one previous owner after the house was built and then the last homeowner before me brought over his purification system with the atmospheric tank. From talking with the local purification company this was their only guaranteed way to remove the sulfur smell. Of course now they want to add a larger aerator and install a new diffuser assembly with (3) diffusers in lieu of the (1) I have currently.

Ahh... the atmospheric tank was only to deal with H2S. I missed that.

Do you have a pitless adapter on the well to prevent pipe freezing? There is another way to be rid of the H2S if freezing is not a problem. Try searching for sulfur eliminator in the search box above.

Also, the KL may be totally able to deal with it on its own, with the help of oxygen dissolved in the water. And if you inject some H2O2 before the KL, it will almost surely deal with the H2S.

And another thing is the "conventional" pressure tank. No diaphragm or bladder. Big. The well is slightly modified to bring in a dose of air each time the pump starts. That goes into the pressure tank with water. An air release called an AVC lets the extra air, along with much of the H2S, out. How effective is that compared to the other methods? I don't know.

 

[Bannerman]

Without knowing the hardness of the water, we won't know appropriate settings for a water softener. The company that you consulted advised that a WS is not needed, but you should know the hardness quantity so as to decide yourself.

Salt brine is not needed for a Katalox Light filter. Most filters will utilize a water filter head which will only Backwash and Rinse the media on a schedule, With a 3 cycle control valve, there would be no means to draw in salt brine. When the amount of iron or H2S in the well water is excessive, an oxidant such as air, Ozone, chlorine or hydrogen peroxide may be utilized in the tank with the Katalox Light media, in which case, a 5+ cycle water softener control valve may be needed to draw in those oxidants instead of salt brine.

While you recognize there is a problem with sulfer odor (H2S), you don't know if there are other water conditions which are also causing issues. A lab test is needed to identify all water conditions to determine appropriate treatment methods. With a private well, you are your own water utility.

 

[abestophat]

Ahh... the atmospheric tank was only to deal with H2S. I missed that.

Do you have a pitless adapter on the well to prevent pipe freezing? There is another way to be rid of the H2S if freezing is not a problem. Try searching for sulfur eliminator in the search box above.

Also, the KL may be totally able to deal with it on its own, with the help of oxygen dissolved int he water. And if you inject some H2O2 before the KL, it will almost surely deal with the H2S.

The well has a 120v convenience outlet and a short stubby 2' tall mailbox type brick and mortar house around it with cast stone cap. I plug in a heat lamp in the winter to keep from freezing. Not much of an issue in North Texas but still good to have. There is a schrader valve on the well pump that spits out when it is done pumping to the pressure tank. Thanks, I'll look into the sulfur eliminator and/or hydrogen peroxide injection.

 

[Reach4]

There is a schrader valve on the well pump that spits out when it is done pumping to the pressure tank.

Interesting! Here are two other search term for you: snifter and drain-back. Tell us about your current pressure tank.

Hydropneumatic and "Air over water" are terms for the tanks that work with a snifter valve, AVC, and drain back valve.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Reliance-120-Gallon-Vertical-Pressure-Tank/1000548993
https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/...over-water-pressure-tank-vertical-120-gallons

 

[abestophat]

Interesting! Here are two other search term for you: snifter and drain-back. Tell us about your current pressure tank.

Hydropneumatic and "Air over water" are terms for the tanks that work with a snifter valve, AVC, and drain back valve.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Reliance-120-Gallon-Vertical-Pressure-Tank/1000548993
https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/...over-water-pressure-tank-vertical-120-gallons

Here is a photo of the pressure tank that.

 

[Bannerman]

What Schrader valve are you referring to that is 'spitting'?

 

[Water Guy]

I will apologize for the long post but think a little history may be worthwhile on how I got to this point.

I moved into a home last year that has a (2) Clack WS1 heads with 10x54 tanks, brine tank, 300 gallon water tank with Matala HK-25LP aerator for diffuser inside tank. The home was sold with this supposed $10k system ready to go. It wasn't until I was too far into the home purchase (and selling my other home as well) that I realized the water purification system wasn't online and there was no media in the filter tanks whatsoever. We had the water tested 2x and it was pristine so we didn't see a need to spend the money to pay the company that installed the system to re-bed the filters and left the system in bypass for the better part of a year. When the shelter-in-place orders came down the pipe, we actually thought about selling the system as we were in the middle of building a pool and could have used some extra cash. We called the company that had their stickers on the Clack WS1 filter heads and they came out and ran the system to see what it would take to get it back up. They quoted $650 to re-bed one filter (said I didn't need the other filter because our water was already soft) and $1400 to replace the Grundfos MQ3-45 booster pump that was short-cycling as well as install a new diffuser system (apparently 3 heads instead of the current 1 in the 300gal tank) and a larger aerator. The diffusers and aerator change was their method to guarantee sulfur smell H2S removal. Their quote complete was quite shocking. The technician did offer some good advice and said I shouldn't sell the system because the water could change and that I'd never get out of it near what it was worth.

Low and behold a few months ago our water started smelling horrible. I poured 3 gallons of germicidal bleach down into the well in an attempt to kill the bacteria that produces the H2S smell. It may work for a while albeit our water now has trace of bleach smell. My wife thinks it is better than the alternative and I agree. Since I had this 10k piece of furniture out in the garage, I decided that I can try and get it up-and-running. After dismantling and cleaning the MQ3-45 and also removing the diaphragm under the board to repeatedly adjust pressures, I came to the conclusion that the pump is bad and ordered a replacement. It goes off and kicks back on when there is still clearly a need for water. I was able to easily screw the filter heads off and discovered, as the tech indicated, that they were both empty of media/resin and full of water. I ordered 1CF bag of Purolite C100E resin for one tank and 1.5CF bag of Katalox Light KL-10 Filter Media for the second tank and I'm awaiting their delivery.

I would appreciate some input/clarification on a few items:
1. Do I need to make any programming changes to the filter head for the two different types of media?

2. Do I hook both filter tanks up to the brine tank by means of a tee/wye? I'm fearful if I do this, they will both put too much water into the brine tank. How do I program the filter heads for this scenario if it is possible?

3. Will the Katalox light KL-10 work well for this type system? I intend to install very small crushed rock in the tank only up to the diffuser/filter that sticks into the top of the filter tank just past the tank bottom invert.

4. Shall I plan to install .5CF of fine rock below the 1CF Purolite as the 10x54 tank is for 1.5cf media? Or will just a little bit of rock up past the invert to cover the diffuser/filter be sufficient?

5. Does it matter which filter media/resin is first in the line? Water comes from my well pressure tank to the system, through the 2 filter heads, into the 300gal tank and then to the booster pump that pumps through the house.

6. I have noticed that when I close/open the system bypass valve (my entire system has a bypass valve) my hot water heater tanks gurgle and the well pressure tank oddly clicks. Any idea what this is and is it detrimental to any components (water heaters, purification system, etc.)?

7. Is there anything I should watch out for when I start the filter heads up? I have seen online videos on the slow opening of the filter tank head outlet valve but not sure if there will be any other surprises.

Much Thanks!

you either have iron or manganese in you water causing H2S to perpetuate. if would install underbedding in both tanks enough to cover the manifold screen. an upper basket is required for the carbon tank. I suspect (if you don't have iron or. orange staining, you probably have high levels of manganese) whoever tested your water didn't test for manganese. the carbon tank doesn't require salt. you'll want chemical injection prior to the carbon tank as well, and retention (to allow contact time if you use chlorine as opposed to H2O2. imo you may be in over your head on this one.

 

[Water Guy]

also if your referring to water coming out of the shrader valve top the pressure tank then the bladder has ruptured and you'll need a new PT. the amount of air in the tank should be 2 psi below the low pressure setting with the tank empty. is 30/50=28 psi bladder pressure. 40/60=38psi. anything above that will cause the pressure tank to short cycle and cause problems such as pulsing and ps burnout

 

[Bannerman]

an upper basket is required for the carbon tank

The OP has not mentioned a carbon tank. If a softener is not required, installing Catalytic Carbon into the softener tank and reprogramming the softener control valve to perform as a filter valve, maybe a better use for the intended softener. The CC filter would then be located after the KL filter and the brine tank would not be utilized.

Without a comprehensive water analysis report, all we are doing is speculating.

Curtis, with regard to your latest comment, that was the reason I asked for clarification about the Schrader valve.

 

[Water Guy]

The OP has not mentioned a carbon tank. If a softener is not required, installing Catalytic Carbon into the softener tank and reprogramming the softener control valve to perform as a filter valve, maybe a better use for the intended softener. The CC filter would then be located after the KL filter and the brine tank would not be utilized.

Without a comprehensive water analysis report, all we are doing is speculating.

Curtis, with regard to your latest comment, that was the reason I asked for clarification about the Schrader valve.

my bad. didn't read. if the bladder is ruptured, along with their being no media in the tanks, I suspect his foot valve could be bad allowing draw down. that might also explain the ruptured bladder. but, as you mentioned, pure speculation. I agree with your assessment.

 

[Bannerman]

The 300 gallon water holding tank is downstream from the filters.

An atmospheric tank is commonly used as an initial treatment device. The diffusers spray the incoming water from the well through air at the top of the tank which will assist to oxidize the H2S, converting it to a solid-state which will accumulate on the bottom of the tank. As the accumulated sediment will need to be periodically flushed away, the tank will be usually equipped with a large diameter drain port with a ball valve to allow the debris to be easily eliminated.

The pressure pump supplying the home will draw water out above the tank bottom so as to not draw the accumulated sediment. The pump will then supply the KL filter and other filtration equipment which will remove any remaining unoxidized H2S and sediment that made it past the initial oxidation tank.

 

[abestophat]

also if your referring to water coming out of the shrader valve top the pressure tank then the bladder has ruptured and you'll need a new PT. the amount of air in the tank should be 2 psi below the low pressure setting with the tank empty. is 30/50=28 psi bladder pressure. 40/60=38psi. anything above that will cause the pressure tank to short cycle and cause problems such as pulsing and ps burnout

There is a shrader valve at the well pump itself. I believe it spits once the well pump cycles off and think it may be intended to relieve pressure in the line from the well pump to the pressure tank. The pressure tank has been checked within the last year and is operating fine and doesn't short cycle.