Tankless advice from the crowd: Navien, Rinnai, Noritz

Which would you recommend?

  • Noritz NRCR111

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Rinnai RUR199

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Navien 240A2

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

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Dr Love

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I have narrowed down my tankless choices to the three in the poll. What I've gathered from my research is that Navien is easy to maintain and has nice features, SS exchangers, and is very efficient; Noritz is high quality japanese made, also SS exchangers, good support supposedly; Rinnai is a gold standard for many years and have very user friendly features like the smartphone app, but has copper alloy exchanger.

I initially only wanted Navien or Nortiz bc my heater is outdoors and I wanted the SS exchanger for maximal corrosion inhibition. I want a recirculation pump as I don't have a dedicated return so I'll be using the thermal bypass valve at the further faucet with these. All three of these have built in pumps, the Navien has an extra buffer tank as well. I was able to get these wholesale quotes locally as well as the quoted full installs from an HVAC company:
Noritz NRCR111dv-LP $1916.81 (little extra for a conversion kit for outdoors) [quoted $5995]
only comes with remote control, bypass valve, service valves, outdoor cap, and wifi monitor are optional and extra.
Rinnai RUR199EP $1888.25 [quoted $5556]
includes isolation kit and wi-fi controller, thermal bypass valve
Navien NPE 240A2 $1580 [quoted $6065]
Does not include the isolation kit, outdoor cap, thermal bypass valve but when added up its $1890.

I can get other accessories like pipe covers and such but those are the basics

As you can see from the price difference, it was an easy decision to do this myself. I've done both liquid and gas plumbing on my home and it's not a big deal for me to tackle this. I don't care about the warranty because I can essentially buy 3 water heaters for this price difference.
They're all 199k BTU, all basically 11 GPM max, all above .95 efficiency, etc

I'll probably end up swapping out my house shutoff as well as it's old style gate valve and maybe splice in a whole house filter while i'm at it.

With all things considered, which company do you have experience or unit do you have experience with and recommend and why?

Thanks in advance!
 
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Dr Love

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I have a 17 year old Rinnai tankless already, outdoors. it's got a few pinhole leaks in the piping and will not last much longer. it's all puttied up right now holding on
 

Dr Love

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And also I like the never ending hot water. My current setup takes forever to get hot upstairs but that's because i don't have recirculation
 

Bingow

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NPE240A here, 7 mos, pro installed. Did it exclusively to gain space in a smallish utility closet, which made enough room for a larger water softener. Tankless pros: space, fuel, continuous hot water. Cons: initial expense, pump noise. Yet to evaluate: maintenance; it may be an equal trade off. Bottom line: I would have stayed with tank type except for its larger footprint, however no regrets going tankless.
 

Dr Love

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how can you not save fuel with a tankless? Isn't the point that it only ignites when water is flowing vs sporadically to heat the water in the tank? Or are you saying the MASSIVE heat during flow is about the same as the more often smaller BTUs during tank heating?
 

John Gayewski

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The heating of the water is the same whether you do it instantly or throughout the day. Modern insulated water heaters do not have the same kinds of standby losses as older types. When you add in the extra cost of the product, install, service, and decreased life of the units as a whole there isn't any saving to write home about. If fuel prices were to skyrocket by a lot then there could be some savings.

Same with a solar water heating systems. If you project it out the company's claim major savings, but there are considerations the sellers of these products don't take into account.

It is possible top save on these things, but most people either don't or don't notice a huge difference. They just notice they are now paying someone to clean their water heater.
 

Reach4

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how can you not save fuel with a tankless? Isn't the point that it only ignites when water is flowing vs sporadically to heat the water in the tank?
You are saving the standby heat loss. So people using showers all day would save less. A single person would save more.

The tanks are quieter and take less maintenance. Tanks take more space. I understand this duplicates points already made.

Tankless seems like it should fail more often due to complexity.

One thought: why have wifi for a tankless? I could see that for a tank, since you could let the tank stand by until you plan to get home, but tankless would not seem to need that. OK, guess that tankless could be providing usage info rather than accepting remote instructions.
 

Bannerman

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Beyond the elimination of stand-by heat loss, the most efficient tankless units utilize a condensing heat exchanger that increases the amount of heat extracted from the fuel up to 98%.

While there are condensing tank type WHs, they are not common. A typical tank heater fuel efficiency is approx 67% regardless whether it is natural draft or power vent.

A further fuel saving and comfort benefit for most tankless is the ability to supply combustion air from the exterior of the home, directly to the unit.

Obtaining combustion air from the exterior will allow the unit to operate without consuming air from within the living space for combustion and exhaust. As the air within the living space will be often heated or cooled, the energy required to condition the air needed to supply the WH can represent a significant amount of wasted energy.

When supplying combustion air from within the home, unless provision is made to replace that air from the exterior, the interior of the home will exterience a slight vacuum, causing replacement air to leak into the home through any small gaps, usually resulting in drafts and inconsistant temperatures.
 

Reach4

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While there are condensing tank type WHs, they are not common. A typical tank heater fuel efficiency is approx 67% regardless whether it is natural draft or power vent.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Takagi-...ng-Indoor-Tankless-Water-Heater-6-6-GPM-NG-LP comes up when searching for most popular "tankless", and it is non-condensing.

Non-condensing also means you don't need a neutralizer for the drain. But it also means that you can't use PVC for the exhaust, I think.
 

Bannerman

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While there are condensing tank type WHs, they are not common.

the most efficient tankless units utilize a condensing heat exchanger that increases the amount of heat extracted from the fuel up to 98%.

A non-condensing tank type WH that is equipped with a Power Vent exhaust, will often utilize PVC or other plastic pipe to vent horizontally through an exterior wall.

To prevent exceeding the temperature rating for the plastic pipe, the exhaust gas temperature is reduced by ensuring an excessive volume of air is flowing through the exhaust pipe as provided by the exhaust blower.
 
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John Gayewski

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Standby heat loss only applies to the summer time also. This heater being outside has some other considerations, but from October until March, in my area my "standby heat loss " adds to my indoor heating or decreases my heating needs depending on how toy look at it.

Adding up these costs and comparing TOTAL cost doesn't really make a difference. Unless someone is trying to do some kind of ultra eco setup. Which is fine. But there's not a cost savings to write home about.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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Any reason for doing this? You could install a tank heater about 5 times over and still save money. Also no headaches.

I totally agree with you about this ....

Now I do feel that Navien is probably the best tankless heater on the market, except
after yearly maintaince you basically break even on savings.... .

At least in the mid west a 75 gallon Rheem tank type heater with an 8 year warranty will go
in for about 2500.... with no follow up maintaince needed... A 50 gallon rheem unit will run
you about 1500 more or less.... Then You throw a blanket on this
heater and it will probably be close to the same energy cost as that Navien .....

I will see you in hell first before I ever pay 6000 for a tankless heater ......
You have got to be nuts.... or you voted for Biden and you think you are doing your
part to save the planet.... new green deal and all....I get it... we all got to jump on board..


6000 dollars at one time was what you could buy a used car for.....
this is just a damn water heater...its not the space shuttle.......
It simply heats water, its not necessary to throw
that much money away thinking you are doing your part to save the planet

.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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NPE240A here, 7 mos, pro installed. Did it exclusively to gain space in a smallish utility closet, which made enough room for a larger water softener. Tankless pros: space, fuel, continuous hot water. Cons: initial expense, pump noise. Yet to evaluate: maintenance; it may be an equal trade off. Bottom line: I would have stayed with tank type except for its larger footprint, however no regrets going tankless.

Lets wait a few years and see what you think... I know for a fact I could
come out today (Sunday) and probably repair a 7 year old
Rheem tank type water heater with a defective control on it.. no problem

You can't say the same thing about the tankless heater....
you could be easily down for a week or two waiting on parts or a
qualified tech
 

breplum

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Navien sends out parts to us "Red Label" overnight if we ask. All NSS (Navien Service Specialists) have purchased a full box (discounted) of most all parts and carry them to the job, so there is no waiting. Then Navien sends us the replacement free if it is under warranty.
 

Waterboy99

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Any reason for doing this? You could install a tank heater about 5 times over and still save money. Also no headaches.
Hey John, I am looking to install a new Hot Water heater as well and I understand your point of view. Am I asking for problem by installing a Tankless (Gas) or a Hybrid Heat Pump (Electric) and maybe should just stay with a good traditional Electric type (not sure which brand) to avoid any hassles? Thanks for your input and welcome anyone else that has a point of view.
 
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