Radiant floor heat - water heater discharging

[Sylvan]

You can trust me when I say I don't need a steam lesson. I'm telling you what happened in the past. Yes one pipe steam was the most common way to heat buildings. Yes that does require less pipe. Two pipe steam came later. Steam is very simple and has almost no moving parts. I don't really know what any of this has to do with the circulator..

Last time I looked a steam trap it DID have moving parts or is it optional? LWCO does it have a moving part? Air vents NO moving bellows inside ?

Condensate vacuum pump? expansion loops do move as well as expansion compensators BUT if you say very few "almost moving parts" I no longer need to discuss how steam managers to stay in a radiator or how the steam lines are vented

I guess the piping is just to a boiler and back with just piping to and from .

Thank you for clarifying how simple steam systems are

By the way a one family home I was working in was built in 1865 and it was a 2 pipe STEAM system as well as Mrs. Gambles home (Proctor and Gamble)

What We did was remove the "No moving part" of the steam traps, removed the radiator steam valves and installed non electric valves on each CI radiator removed the Safety Valve and installed a Relief valve on the boiler installed circulators and replaced the sight glasses and Tri indicator and did other modifications and converted it a to a hot water system after doing a hydrostatic test on the boiler

Her heating bill was reduced by over 30% and the comfortable level also increased


We also installed a 3" flanged SPIROVENT AIR as I do on all my hot water boiler
installations


https://www.spirotherm.com/sites/default/files/Air-2A.pdf

 

[Toddjb]

The water will be constantly getting warmer and cooler as it is pumped around, and as the WH heat source is cycling on/off...this will cause the volume of water in your system to be constantly changing. You absolutely need an expansion tank to take some of that pressure cycling off of the system...water does not compress, so heating it, while expanded, immediately causes the pressure to spike...the less air in the system, the more immediate that pressure spike is.

Ideally, the ET would be installed on the inlet of the pump, so when the pump turns on, it can add any volume back to help prevent cavitation.

As noted, the pressure only needs to be high enough to prevent boiling and to overcome any issues with elevation changes that could cause a vacuum to be generated...12-psi is a common one used with boilers, and is more than enough on a single story heating system plus, 30-psi T&P valves are readily available.

The higher pressure will tend to weaken the tank faster, leading to earlier failure, especially if you don't add an ET!

A T&P or even a pressure relief valve generally should be replaced if it has regularly been exercised...generally, they're designed as an emergency device, and not to be regularly operated.

Thanks guys! Jadnashua, that explanation was super helpful.

I reconfigured and added an expansion tank and a pressure gauge. Hopefully this will fix the issues. The PSI seems to only get up to 20 PSI now.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[John Gayewski]

Well one pipe steam doesn't have traps so there's that. Vents on one pipe steam are a maintenance item which is the moving part. Valves should be open all of the time since steam isn't balanced unless you know what your doing. A lwco is a safety device which are mainly electric now a days, but they don't have to be. When someone says"one pipe steam has almost no moving parts " that's what they mean. There's alomost zero reason to go through all of the parts of a two pipe system that has more moving parts. Or you could go through all of the parts of a hot water system for no reason, that's fun, but why?

I'm glad you've convinced yourself that hot water is better and saves people money. I'm sure if someone balanced the steam system and knew what they were doing they could have saved her 30 percent and not had to reconfigure the whole system.

The problem with steam isn't that it's ineffeciant, it's that people (including a majority of people in the heating industry) don't know what to do to make it behave. They normally just keep cranking the pressure and wonder why it doesn't get hotter or cycle less.

Last time I looked a steam trap it DID have moving parts or is it optional? LWCO does it have a moving part? Air vents NO moving bellows inside ?

Condensate vacuum pump? expansion loops do move as well as expansion compensators BUT if you say very few "almost moving parts" I no longer need to discuss how steam managers to stay in a radiator or how the steam lines are vented

I guess the piping is just to a boiler and back with just piping to and from .

Thank you for clarifying how simple steam systems are

By the way a one family home I was working in was built in 1865 and it was a 2 pipe STEAM system as well as Mrs. Gambles home (Proctor and Gamble)

What We did was remove the "No moving part" of the steam traps, removed the radiator steam valves and installed non electric valves on each CI radiator removed the Safety Valve and installed a Relief valve on the boiler installed circulators and replaced the sight glasses and Tri indicator and did other modifications and converted it a to a hot water system after doing a hydrostatic test on the boiler

Her heating bill was reduced by over 30% and the comfortable level also increased


We also installed a 3" flanged SPIROVENT AIR as I do on all my hot water boiler
installations


https://www.spirotherm.com/sites/default/files/Air-2A.pdf

 

[Jadnashua]

While you may need smaller radiators when doing steam since they get so hot, if going hot water instead, in reality, in most situations, you can use much lower temperatures that are safer and more comfortable for all involved. Lower temp, less cycling, more constant heating, more efficient, more comfortable, less stress on the system components. A radiant floor system might be comfortable feeding it 110-degree water most of the heating season and the floor composition.

 

[John Gayewski]

While you may need smaller radiators when doing steam since they get so hot, if going hot water instead, in reality, in most situations, you can use much lower temperatures that are safer and more comfortable for all involved. Lower temp, less cycling, more constant heating, more efficient, more comfortable, less stress on the system components. A radiant floor system might be comfortable feeding it 110-degree water most of the heating season and the floor composition.

If you have steam heat you love it. I agree with most of what you said, but you can't say that 110 is more comfortable than 180 or 200. It just isn't. The reality is most people from way back in the day left the windows open in the winter for several reasons, one being that the steam heat was so hot. Comparing one as being better than another is pointless and I don't really know how it got to that other than someone deflecting the discussion.

 

[Jadnashua]

One has to ask...how is leaving the windows open in the winter anywhere near economical?

Personally, I'll take a warm floor any day over convectors or radiators, and that cannot be anywhere near as hot as a steam radiator will need to be to heat the same area. It will never be as even, and furniture placement becomes a major hinderance with radiators. And, a piping hot steam radiator can be a safety hazard if you have young ones around...not an issue with something like a radiant floor heating system unless it's malfunctioning.

 

[John Gayewski]

One has to ask...how is leaving the windows open in the winter anywhere near economical?

Personally, I'll take a warm floor any day over convectors or radiators, and that cannot be anywhere near as hot as a steam radiator will need to be to heat the same area. It will never be as even, and furniture placement becomes a major hinderance with radiators. And, a piping hot steam radiator can be a safety hazard if you have young ones around...not an issue with something like a radiant floor heating system unless it's malfunctioning.

The economy wasn't the issue back in the day. Coal cannot be turned off easily. Also it was believed that leaving the windows kitten was healthier. The flu pandemic was a contributer to these ideas. This was when steam ruled. Heating professionals literally sized boilers to heat a house with the windows open in the winter. Which is one of the many reasons figuring a heating load from scratch is important. There's no telling how people liked to keep their environment.

People with steam boilers often will set up a radiant zone off of the water portion of the boiler. There's no reason to choose when you can have both, lol.

 

[Sylvan]

If you have steam heat you love it. I agree with most of what you said, but you can't say that 110 is more comfortable than 180 or 200. It just isn't. The reality is most people from way back in the day left the windows open in the winter for several reasons, one being that the steam heat was so hot. Comparing one as being better than another is pointless and I don't really know how it got to that other than someone deflecting the discussion.

AGAIN steam is hotter then water??

WOULDNT that depend on the pressure?

Residential steam heating systems are almost always designed to operate at very low pressures, typically around 0.2 psi to a maximum of 0.5 psi - (that's 1/2 of one psi.) which is 212 DEG


A hot water boiler is usually set 180 - 200 BUT it can be set 180 - 220 DEG F as water stays hotter in a radiator then steam does so it has less temperature fluctuations


I yet to hear about hydraulic shock in a water system that can cause death


The real reason why the windows were left open is COAL is TOXIC and leaves lots of soot and smells and there was no alarms such smoke etc.


I am on a case for the past few years now heading to court and I already gave my deposition as to how and why the STEAM caused the deaths


https://abc7ny.com/children-burned-apartment-in-hunts-point-the-bronx/1645983/

 

[John Gayewski]

AGAIN steam is hotter then water??

WOULDNT that depend on the pressure?

Residential steam heating systems are almost always designed to operate at very low pressures, typically around 0.2 psi to a maximum of 0.5 psi - (that's 1/2 of one psi.) which is 212 DEG


A hot water boiler is usually set 180 - 200 BUT it can be set 180 - 220 DEG F as water stays hotter in a radiator then steam does so it has less temperature fluctuations


I yet to hear about hydraulic shock in a water system that can cause death


The real reason why the windows were left open is COAL is TOXIC and leaves lots of soot and smells and there was no alarms such smoke etc.


I am on a case for the past few years now heading to court and I already gave my deposition as to how and why the STEAM caused the deaths


https://abc7ny.com/children-burned-apartment-in-hunts-point-the-bronx/1645983/

I guess they didn't have chimneys. I'm sure they'll be happy to hear your explanations.

 

[WorthFlorida]

Reading this post is certainly a learning experience. So, I looked up the Taco pump instructions and they show it either way, pump on the return or pump on the supply side.

As for steam, I sure remember the banging and whistling of the steam pipes system but they were always too hot. We lived on 145 Schenectady Ave in Brooklyn, second floor. My sister picked up our baby sister so she could see out the window or something else and sat her on the hot radiator. I think to this day a scar of the burn on her back side of her leg is still there. See is now 68, she was 1 0r 2 years old when it happened.

https://www.tacocomfort.com/documents/FileLibrary/102-135.pdf

 

[John Gayewski]

Reading this post is certainly a learning experience. So, I looked up the Taco pump instructions and they show it either way, pump on the return or pump on the supply side.

As for steam, I sure remember the banging and whistling of the steam pipes system but they were always too hot. We lived on 145 Schenectady Ave in Brooklyn, second floor. My sister picked up our baby sister so she could see out the window or something else and sat her on the hot radiator. I think to this day a scar of the burn on her back side of her leg is still there. See is now 68, she was 1 0r 2 years old when it happened.

https://www.tacocomfort.com/documents/FileLibrary/102-135.pdf

The pump doesn't care which side its on it can take extreme temperatures and laugh, it only cares if the pump is beyond a certain size and doing a high circulation. The system runs better on the supply.

Steam heating is a lost art. The people I've encountered love it. Changing them to hot water is pretty common. Usually someone talks an owner into it.

 

[Sylvan]

I guess they didn't have chimneys. I'm sure they'll be happy to hear your explanations.

Ever hear of a Chimney fire from creosote??

Soot residue is usually highly acidic. The acidic soot can corrode metal within a building . Metal doorknobs, pipes, and kitchen fittings can all be affected by this corrosion, as well as anything with exposed metal components

Regarding "Steam is a lost art" nothing can be further from the truth .

Low income housing for example uses steam systems . Reason being IF someone damages the radiator the steam will destroy ONE apartment in most cases NOT flood all the floors below

Some commercial spaces use Steam (Modine heaters for example) as an open flame is dangerous where flammable fumes are near

It may help if you read the NFPA once in a while

Also a steam system is not going to freeze up as readily as a hydronic system when it is off due to a black out or burner failure

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Good grief.. The OP has a water heater and hydronic water heat.. not steam.

 

[Sylvan]

8:09 am this morning we passed not only the gas inspection we also passed the boiler inspection

I realized after the installation that "steam boilers" do have a lot of moving parts

Not too shabby for $26,800 one man 3 days