Questions about pressure tank and cycling

[WillToress]

Hi all, i'm new here and this is my first time owning a house with a well. Is the gauge on the pressure tank supposed to go in between 45 and 70 psi back and forth as water is being used? (video:

https://imgur.com/a/mnGRKxy

) Is this called short cycling? There is also clicking sounds and vibrations when it hits 70psi. Lights also flicker when it clicks. If this is abnormal, how is the pressure gauge supposed to react when water is being used?

I'm asking because the faucets in the upper level of the house had low pressure and stopped to a trickle. After leaving it overnight, pressure returned to the kitchen but not as strong as before. The bath sink is still extremely weak. The pressure in the lower level is still fine. Could this be due to a bad pressure tank?

Thanks so much in advance!

 

[Valveman]

Yeah, that is rapid cycling. The bladder in the tank is most likely bad. Even when the bladder in the tank was still good it was cycling every minute or two, which is still hundreds of cycles per day. After the so called "normal" cycling causes the bladder to break and/or check valve to fail, it turns into thousands of cycles a day, and the pump is ripe for replacement soon.

Using a Cycle Stop Valve to eliminate the cycling will make pump systems last so much longer it is considered a "disruptive" product by the pump industry. Not only will the CSV make the pump system last longer, now that you need a new tank it will allow the use of a much smaller and less expensive tank like in the PK1A kit. Not only will the PK1A kit be the least expensive way to replace that tank and make everything last longer, it will deliver such strong constant pressure to the shower you will no longer need soap.

The 40 to 70 you have now delivers good pressure for a few seconds while the pressure is close to 70, but quickly becomes a trickle when the pressure falls all the way to 40. The CSV would keep the pressure at a strong constant 65 PSI as long as water is being used.

PK1A Pside-Kick Pressure Tank Kit – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

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[WillToress]

Yeah, that is rapid cycling. The bladder in the tank is most likely bad. Even when the bladder in the tank was still good it was cycling every minute or two, which is still hundreds of cycles per day. After the so called "normal" cycling causes the bladder to break and/or check valve to fail, it turns into thousands of cycles a day, and the pump is ripe for replacement soon.

Using a Cycle Stop Valve to eliminate the cycling will make pump systems last so much longer it is considered a "disruptive" product by the pump industry. Not only will the CSV make the pump system last longer, now that you need a new tank it will allow the use of a much smaller and less expensive tank like in the PK1A kit. Not only will the PK1A kit be the least expensive way to replace that tank and make everything last longer, it will deliver such strong constant pressure to the shower you will no longer need soap.

The 40 to 70 you have now delivers good pressure for a few seconds while the pressure is close to 70, but quickly becomes a trickle when the pressure falls all the way to 40. The CSV would keep the pressure at a strong constant 65 PSI as long as water is being used.

PK1A Pside-Kick Pressure Tank Kit – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

Buy It! Interactive Animation Installation Video General Information Typical Applications Specifications Dimensions Installation Instructions Troubleshooting VFD Controller Replacement WARNING: This product can expose you to chemicals including nickel, which is known to the State of California...

cyclestopvalves.com

Thanks, I will look into installing a CSV—it does sound like a worth upgrade.

Does rapid cycling always indicate a bad bladder? Because I did the schrader valve test and only air came out, no water. And why would a bad bladder only cause low pressure in 1 faucet in the house?

 

[LLigetfa]

I noticed that the needle bounces both at pump start and end that may be due to additional check valve or valves. If there is a banging noise associated with it, that is water hammer.

I advise against increasing the spread beyond the 20 PSI stock 40/60 or 50/70 setting as some tanks don't have an internal dome limiter that the diaphragm can hit up against to it keep from stretching.

 

[WillToress]

I noticed that the needle bounces both at pump start and end that may be due to additional check valve or valves. If there is a banging noise associated with it, that is water hammer.

I advise against increasing the spread beyond the 20 PSI stock 40/60 or 50/70 setting as some tanks don't have an internal dome limiter that the diaphragm can hit up against to it keep from stretching.

Thanks, it seems that it is currently at a 25psi spread (45-70). Increasing the spread further to 30psi will reduce the needle bouncing and water hammering?

 

[LLigetfa]

Increasing the spread further to 30psi will reduce the needle bouncing and water hammering?

No, you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Do not increase it. I suggest you decrease it to 20 PSI spread. Beyond that look into why the needle is bouncing.

 

[WillToress]

No, you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Do not increase it. I suggest you decrease it to 20 PSI spread. Beyond that look into why the needle is bouncing.

Oh yes sorry I read your reply too fast. I will try to adjust it to the standard 20psi spread

 

[Valveman]

Oh yes sorry I read your reply too fast. I will try to adjust it to the standard 20psi spread

Just loosen the small adjustment screw in the pressure switch until the nut is no longer touching the little spring. That will get you 17-20 PSI between on and off, which are both adjusted by the larger adjustment screw.

When I see a bandwidth wider than 20 PSI I know someone was trying to reduce the on/off cycles. Which, as was said, causes other problems in the process.

Make sure there is about 45 PSI air in the tank with the pump turned off and water pressure gauge at zero. Then adjust the large adjustment on the pressure switch to shut the pump off at about 70. 17-20 PSI below that is the on pressure, which is not that important.

You can have a lot of water over the diaphragm in the tank as the Schrader is at the top and no water will come out until it is completely waterlogged. A waterlogged tank will feel heavy, even with no water comes out the faucets. It will sound solid, instead of hollow, and the amount of draw down or pump run time will be reduced.

 

[WillToress]

Just loosen the small adjustment screw in the pressure switch until the nut is no longer touching the little spring. That will get you 17-20 PSI between on and off, which are both adjusted by the larger adjustment screw.

When I see a bandwidth wider than 20 PSI I know someone was trying to reduce the on/off cycles. Which, as was said, causes other problems in the process.

Make sure there is about 45 PSI air in the tank with the pump turned off and water pressure gauge at zero. Then adjust the large adjustment on the pressure switch to shut the pump off at about 70. 17-20 PSI below that is the on pressure, which is not that important.

You can have a lot of water over the diaphragm in the tank as the Schrader is at the top and no water will come out until it is completely waterlogged. A waterlogged tank will feel heavy, even with no water comes out the faucets. It will sound solid, instead of hollow, and the amount of draw down or pump run time will be reduced.

Thank you for this detailed reply! I will try loosening the small nut first, but will need to get an air pump and pressure gauge to do the second part. After that, it should solve the quick cycling?

And what else could be causing low pressure (both hot and cold) on only one faucet in the house? I left it running for a couple of mins and could not find any leaks coming out of the walls. I already checked the shut off valves under the sink as well, both are open. Any ideas are appreciated!

 

[Reach4]

And what else could be causing low pressure (both hot and cold) on only one faucet in the house? I left it running for a couple of mins and could not find any leaks coming out of the walls. I already checked the shut off valves under the sink as well, both are open. Any ideas are appreciated!

Let's call that low flow out of one faucet.

Try measuring the flow of just hot and just cold, as well as hot+cold. If all 3 tests give similar numbers, then you know the problem is similar to a clogged aerator.... or something else that carries both the hot and the cold. Once you cannot blame the aerator, I am thinking that replacing the faucet is a good idea.

If the flow for warm (hot+cold) is a lot greater than for hot or cold, that can be more things.

To measure the flow, time how long it takes to fill a container. You will select a container that fits under the spout.

 

[Fitter30]

Expansion tank 2 lbs less than pump starting checked with a 50lb tire gauge. Water comes out ex tank is bad from the fitting opposite piping end. Adjust air pressure with bicycle pump.

 

[Valveman]

Any filters that could be clogged?

 

[WillToress]

Hey everyone just wanted to give an update in case others find this thread facing the same issues. I was able to drain the tank and pump back it up and it seemed to have fixed the quick cycle issue. I couldn't get the PSI to hit 40/60 exactly so will need to spend some more time tinkering with the switch but its nothing major. The low flow issue from the faucet was just a clogged aerator! There was a ton of sediment which is weird for a new install but the issue is resolved. Thanks again to everyone who helped out

 

[Reach4]

Consider adding a sediment filter after the pressure tank.

 

[Valveman]

Exactly 40/60 is not important. But cycling on and off at any pressure in not good for the pump.

 

[WillToress]

Exactly 40/60 is not important. But cycling on and off at any pressure in not good for the pump.

I thought it was supposed to cycle on when it hit 40 and then turn off when it hits 60 and slowly drops as the water is being used?

 

[Valveman]

I thought it was supposed to cycle on when it hit 40 and then turn off when it hits 60 and slowly drops as the water is being used?

It is, if you want to do what pump manufacturers suggest, which causes you to need a new pump every few years or even months. But you could use a Cycle Stop Valve instead, which the pump manufacturers call a "disruptive product" since it stops the cycling and makes pumps last several times longer than the manufacturers like. Not only will your pressure be stronger at a constant 50 PSI, but your pump will run cooler and last much longer as well.

 

[Reach4]

I think he is saying that it does not make much difference if you actually have 38/58 or 41/62. I have mine at 38/58 on purpose.

Also, your pressure gauge could be out of calibration a tad. If the pump is not running and you are not using water, the air pressure will be about the same as the water pressure. This is good for letting you compare the calibration of your air pressure gauge and water pressure gauge. It is not going to be exact. For example the altitude of the pressure gauge and the bottom of the center area of the diaphragm may differ. The diaphragm is not perfectly limp. But it is still close enough for most purposes.

If you do want to adjust the pressure switch, here is some info:

To raise or lower the cut-in and cut-out settings while keeping the
differential between those two settings constant, adjust the range
nut. The range nut is the 3/8-inch nut that adjusts the larger of
the two springs in Models FSG, FYG, FRG, and Type G Pumptrol
switches.
Turn the range nut clockwise to increase the cut-in pressure and
counter-clockwise to lower the cut-in pressure. Three and a half
revolutions of the range nut will change both the cut-in and
cut-out settings by approximately 10 psi.

Adjust the differential nut if you want to raise or lower the
cut-out setting while keeping the cut-in pressure constant. The
differential nut is the 3/8-inch nut that adjusts the smaller of
the two springs in Models FSG, FYG, FRG, and Type G switches. Turn
the differential nut clockwise to increase the cut-out pressure and
counter-clockwise to lower the cut-out pressure. Adjusting the
differential nut will change only the cut-out setting while the
cut-in setting remains unchanged.