Pump Saver Plus - Questions

[RogerPDX]

Mid July 2015 my pump guy installed a new 3/4hp Schaefer submersible pump down my well and a Franklin control box with a Pump Saver Plus (model 231/111-insider-p). The pump saver is manufactured by SymCom.

Lately the switch is not working properly, and it is not filling my cistern properly. When it is suppose to turn the pump on - it does not. When I manually override it, the pump pumps water. I like the idea of having a pump saver, but this is not working out as planned. Is this a bad brand? Is there a better pump saver out there?

Does anybody here have experience with these things? I would like to know what I am talking about prior to talking with my pump guy.

Thanks for you your comments.

 

[ACWxRADR]

Roger,

The pump saver monitors several parameters including low voltage, overvoltage, overcurrent, low well water and dead head conditions. You should attempt to determine if the monitor is correctly monitoring and tripping because one of these conditions is improper or if it is falsely tripping.

First check your supply voltage (under load as well as open circuit) and the under load current if you can. If the supply voltage is too low (especially) or too high, then the pump saver is doing its job and protecting your pump motor. Same for the current. If this all checks out ok, then you can feel safe to experiment with the other parameters without damaging the pump.

Before making any adjustments, record the original settings of all available adjustments so you can put everything back to normal if these adjustments don't help or make the problem worse.

There should be a trimming potentiometer (pot) to adjust the sensitivity of the "low well" monitor portion of the pump saver. This is a calibration adjustment and ranges from 70% to 90%. If the pump saver is falsely detecting low water in the well, you should adjust this pot towards the lower side of its range (less sensitive). You can try this and see if it helps.

There is also a restart timer for well recovery. You could set this to a lower time so that the pump can restart sooner after a low well trip indication. Looks like there is a calibration and reset feature on this, too. Not sure how that operates.

I am not sure how this monitors dead head, whether that is by motor current or pressure. If by pressure, you might be able to disable the pressure sensor or sensing switch and see if it eliminates the problem.

RADAR

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ACWxRADR]

Roger,

Another note, the pump saver may be operating (sensing) all things to be normal, but still not allowing the pump to come on if its output relay is bad. The output relay could be a mechanical relay or a solid state relay. If you can get to that relay without voiding any warranty (breaking any seals) you might be able to determine if the circuit is telling the pump to turn on, but the relay is not activating.

RADAR

 

[ACWxRADR]

This pdf might help, it has a troubleshooting section.
https://www.symcom.com/documentation/inst/pdf/II-111-231-INS.pdf

RADAR

 

[Valveman]

Mid July 2015 my pump guy installed a new 3/4hp Schaefer submersible pump down my well and a Franklin control box with a Pump Saver Plus (model 231/111-insider-p). The pump saver is manufactured by SymCom.

Lately the switch is not working properly, and it is not filling my cistern properly. When it is suppose to turn the pump on - it does not. When I manually override it, the pump pumps water. I like the idea of having a pump saver, but this is not working out as planned. Is this a bad brand? Is there a better pump saver out there?

Does anybody here have experience with these things? I would like to know what I am talking about prior to talking with my pump guy.

Thanks for you your comments.

Make sure the pump saver is not just doing what it is suppose to. If the well is really running dry you don't want to override the pump saver. There should be some kind of code or flash that tells you if and why the pump saver has shut off the pump. If it is giving a dry well code, it is sensing low amps and shutting the pump off. Many times the water level in the well has dropped, which makes the pump draw lower amps, and the pump saver will shut off the pump. When this happens, if the pump is still moving water you should be able to dial down the sensitivity button so the pump saver works at lower amperage.

There should also be a timer for restart after a dry well condition. If the pump saver shows dry well condition, make sure you have given it enough time for the timer to restart the pump. You can reduce the timer setting if you like so the pump comes back on sooner.

Then if the pump saver is not showing any kind of fault and the pump still does not run, make sure your float switch is working properly.

Pump savers look for a lot of things that have nothing to do with running the pump dry. Some of these things like low and high voltage protection will give more nuisance trips than they are worth. And if you have a well with a big change in water level or restrict the output of the pump with any kind of valve, the "sensitivity" control for the pump saver may not be sensitive enough.

A Cycle Sensor is much more user friendly as it displays the amps all the time. And the under load can be set to the exact number you want, not just by guessing with a sensitivity knob. The amps displayed on the Cycle Sensor will show you exactly when the pump stops pumping, and you will know exactly where to set the under load to protect the pump from running dry. And the Cycle Sensor doesn't do a bunch of things that just cause nuisance trips.

 

[ACWxRADR]

Valveman,

There is a set of LEDs on this model that should indicate what the suspected problem is. Once that is known, he can diagnose whether the trouble is real or if it is a calibration error. My guess is that it is a calibration error and not a real problem, but I wouldn't bet my pump on it until I had investigated it thoroughly.

RADAR

 

[RogerPDX]

Radar - Thanks for your info. I just got back tonight and will look at all those things in the morning.

Valveman, Thanks for your info too. What is a Cycle Sensor?

 

[Reach4]

What is a Cycle Sensor?

http://cpkits.com/collections/cycle-sensor-pump-monitors/products/cs1ph1-2hp230v

 

[Valveman]

What is a Cycle Sensor?

The Cycle Sensor is a device that protects the pump from Dry Run and Rapid Cycling. It is very similar to the Pumptec, Coyote, Symcom Pump Saver, Franklin Sub Monitor, or other such devices. However the Cycle Sensor doesn't have little flashing LEDs and lights giving a coded signal that must be deciphered. The Cycle Sensor has a digital display that reads the running amps of the motor at all times, unless there is an actual fault which shuts the pump off and makes the display read DRY or RCYC for rapid cycle.

 

[RogerPDX]

Valveman, Does the CS only work with a pressure tank?
My well dumps into a cistern, then is pulled out with a jet pump and pressurized. As soon as we finish my new pump house, I am switching to a CSV eliminating my pressure tank to the house, but have no need for a pressure tank to fill my holding tank (cistern). Please advise.

 

[Valveman]

The Cycle Sensor works fine without a pressure tank or pressure switch. Just hook it up to work with the float switch in the cistern tank.

 

[RogerPDX]

Does it work on its own, or in conjunction with a pump saver?

 

[Valveman]

The Cycle Sensor IS the pump saver.

 

[Ballvalve]

Valveman, Does the CS only work with a pressure tank?
My well dumps into a cistern, then is pulled out with a jet pump and pressurized. As soon as we finish my new pump house, I am switching to a CSV eliminating my pressure tank to the house, but have no need for a pressure tank to fill my holding tank (cistern). Please advise.

If I understand this post, the CSV wont eliminate your pressure tank. You still need one for the house. The cycle sensor would be on the well side. You could use a low pressure cut out switch on the house side with the CSV and the pressure tank in case the cistern runs dry.

 

[Valveman]

If I understand this post, the CSV wont eliminate your pressure tank. You still need one for the house. The cycle sensor would be on the well side. You could use a low pressure cut out switch on the house side with the CSV and the pressure tank in case the cistern runs dry.

You are right the CSV will not eliminate the pressure tank on a pressurized system. Anytime you have a pressure switch you need a pressure tank. With a CSV you just don't need a vrry large tank.

But a well pump feeding a cistern doesn't need a CSV, pressure tank, or pressure switch. Just a Cycle Sensor and a float switch.

 

[PRF48]

You are right the CSV will not eliminate the pressure tank on a pressurized system. Anytime you have a pressure switch you need a pressure tank. With a CSV you just don't need a vrry large tank.

But a well pump feeding a cistern doesn't need a CSV, pressure tank, or pressure switch. Just a Cycle Sensor and a float switch.

Can the 'Rapid Cycle' lockout on a SymCom 233P pump saver be disabled? I am feeding a cistern and cannot find any cause for the lockout.

 

[Valveman]

I don't believe there is any way to disable the rapid cycle feature of the 223P. It shows to lock the pump out if there are 4 starts in 60 seconds. If you are feeding a cistern the float switch must be bouncing to be able to get 4 starts in 60 seconds. Or possibly a bad wire connection. It maybe bouncing so fast you can't see it. But either the float switch is bouncing or the 223P is faulty.

If the pump really is bouncing on/off 4 times in 60 seconds you need to find and fix the problem instead of just turning off the "alarm".

 

[Russell Rider]

I have a 6.5 gpm well pumping to two linked 1500 gallon reservoir tanks (3000 gallons total) and from there the reservoir pump pumps to the house where I have two linked 86 gallon Well-X-Trol pressure tanks. There is a Pump Saver Model 233 for the well pump and a pressure switch for the reservoir pump. Most of the time the system works well but once every day or so I get the Pump Saver error code where the red calibration light and the green run light are blinking in unison and I have to manually shut off and then turn on power. Is this most likely my reservoir tank float switch given my configuration? It doesn't seem to matter whether the water in my reservoir tanks is full or nearly full with the float up or the water is low with the float down. I initially thought maybe the float was getting banged around from water rushing in when the reservoir was getting close to filling as my reservoir fills from the top and then the Pump Saver would rapid cycle, I would use all the water in the reservoirs and not realize the well pump had been shut off until I didn't have any water. I've taken the cover off of the box the Pump Saver is in so I can see the status lights and just have been manually resetting but when I am gone for a week I end up with dead grass and stressed plants. Any ideas?

 

[Valveman]

Those two lights blinking in unison does mean rapid cycle. If you know the float switch is not bouncing and it doesn't have a loose connection, then it is probably a faulty symcom. I guess it could also be a bad float switch. But my money is on a bad symcom.

 

[Russell Rider]

Those two lights blinking in unison does mean rapid cycle. If you know the float switch is not bouncing and it doesn't have a loose connection, then it is probably a faulty symcom. I guess it could also be a bad float switch. But my money is on a bad symcom.

I replaced the float switch which was cracked and thought my problem was solved but 2 days later I had the same rapid cycling error lights come on. I am going to replace the pump saver switch next, hopefully that WILL solve the problem.