Pressure keeps rising after switch cut off

[ChrisnCO]

And Lag In Inside Water Pressure

Trying to diagnose the cause of a recent phenomenon where our inside water pressure is dropping/lagging (sometimes all the way off for a second or two) each time our tanks drains and pressure switch cuts in.

My system is comprised of submersible pump with check valve, then another check valve inside the house (at install the diagram called for this; but, seen many posts saying to remove..could be causing my problem?), 40/60 pressure switch, pressure gauge, and a smaller tank with Cycle Stop Valve. Post-install the system worked fine for about a year and a half. Then, recently, started getting the lag in house water pressure as the switch was cutting in.

Based on gauge (which may be faulty?), pressure switch is cutting in at 40 and out at 60; and, CSV is running at 50 PSI, all exactly as they should, which makes me think pressure gauge is ok.

I notice several oddities when I monitor the system operation:

1. After shutting off pump breaker and opening faucets, the gauge stops at 8-10 PSI (I would expect 0 psi?). Wonder what could cause this beside a bad gauge? I removed the gauge and the pressure goes to zero, as it should. Screw it back on and it goes right back to 8-10 PSI. No noticeable block on gauge nipple or in female T end. So, if not a bad gauge, where could this 10 PSI be coming from and could it be impacting my PSI measurement on the tank at the Schrader valve and/or of the switch cut in and out pressures (meaning while the gauge says 40/60 they are really lower due to this mysterious 10 PSI of pressure in the system.

2. After switch cut out, the pressure on the gauge goes up to nearly 80 PSI, then very slowly seems to creep back down toward the 60's.

3. When doing a run down cycle with the water faucet on, I see the pressure gauge drop very fast starting between 44 and 46 PSI and down to 40 when the switch cuts in. It's during this fast drop that the inside water pressure lags or water stops entirely. ***Update..I experimented by taking air out of the pressure tank and the water pressure lag disappeared at around 32 PSI...seemed to work fine for about a month, then problem reappeared. Lowered tank PSI to 26 PSI and water pressure lag went away again. I'm guessing another short term fix as the PSI numbers are not in synch at all..trying to understand what's happening to cause this.

My first instinct was an incorrect tank charge pressure; but, totally confused by the 10 PSI on the gauge and wondering what's might be causing this reading (bad gauge, clogged line to gauge, above surface check valve)? I thought I'd post here before throwing parts at it and hoping someone might have some insight or ideas. Thanks in advance to all!

 

[Reach4]

My system is comprised of submersible pump with check valve, then another check valve inside the house (at install the diagram called for this;

Is that above-ground check valve before the CSV, or after?

I removed the gauge and the pressure goes to zero, as it should. Screw it back on and it goes right back to 8-10 PSI.

Without you running the pump, or after you turn the pump back on for a while?

So, if not a bad gauge, where could this 10 PSI be coming from and could it be impacting my PSI measurement on the tank at the Schrader valve and/or of the switch cut in and out pressures (meaning while the gauge says 40/60 they are really lower due to this mysterious 10 PSI of pressure in the system.

If the air precharge pressure is substantially higher than 10 psi, such as 20 psi or more, the air precharge measurement should be OK.

My first instinct was an incorrect tank charge pressure; but, totally confused by the 10 PSI on the gauge and wondering what's might be causing this reading (bad gauge, clogged line to gauge, above surface check valve)?

You should have a drain valve near the pressure tank connection. You can screw a garden hose thread pressure gauge to that. That would not be affected by a clogged nipple or a wonky gauge. Those are under $20 locally, and sometimes less than $10.

 

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[ChrisnCO]

Answers below

Is that above-ground check valve before the CSV, or after? Before all inside components (CSV, switch, gauge, & Tank)


Without you running the pump, or after you turn the pump back on for a while? Pump is still off all inside faucets open or closed doesn't seem to matter, gauge just stops at around 10 PSI.

If the air precharge pressure is substantially higher than 10 psi, such as 20 psi or more, the air precharge measurement should be OK. OK; but, I was under the impression the tank pre-charge should be 2-3 PSI below switch cut in..in this case 38 PSI..so having to lower pressure to 27 PSI to make it works doesn't seem logical.

You should have a drain valve near the pressure tank connection. You can screw a garden hose thread pressure gauge to that. That would not be affected by a clogged nipple or a wonky gauge. Those are under $20 locally, and sometimes less than $10. I'm unable to locate any drain valve.

 

[Reach4]

Without you running the pump, or after you turn the pump back on for a while? Pump is still off all inside faucets open or closed doesn't seem to matter, gauge just stops at around 10 PSI.

My question was that when you attach the detached gauge, which reads zero, does the gauge indication go back up to 8-10 psi without you running the pump?

If the air precharge pressure is substantially higher than 10 psi, such as 20 psi or more, the air precharge measurement should be OK. OK; but, I was under the impression the tank pre-charge should be 2-3 PSI below switch cut in..in this case 38 PSI..so having to lower pressure to 27 PSI to make it works doesn't seem logical.

I suspect your pressure tank diaphragm may be failing, and that there may be water on the wrong side of the diaphragm. If your Schrader valve is not on the bottom of the tank, you cannot detect that by seeing if water comes out when you press the pin.

You should have a drain valve near the pressure tank connection. You can screw a garden hose thread pressure gauge to that. That would not be affected by a clogged nipple or a wonky gauge. Those are under $20 locally, and sometimes less than $10. I'm unable to locate any drain valve.

How about a photo of your setup that includes the check valve, the output of the CSV, your pressure gauge, and the input to your pressure tank.

 

[ChrisnCO]

My question was that when you attach the detached gauge, which reads zero, does the gauge indication go back up to 8-10 psi without you running the pump? Yes it does, pump is off, PSI near 10
I suspect your pressure tank diaphragm may be failing, and that there may be water on the wrong side of the diaphragm. If your Schrader valve is not on the bottom of the tank, you cannot detect that by seeing if water comes out when you press the pin. I'm using the 4.4 gallon tank that came with the CSV kit..Schrader valve on the bottom and no water coming out when I apply air gauge. Also, no short cycling of the pump that happened with our previous system when bladder failed.

How about a photo of your setup that includes the check valve, the output of the CSV, your pressure gauge, and the input to your pressure tank. Heading downstairs with camera now

 

[ChrisnCO]

Oops..didn't get the check valve..it sits on the blue PEX pipe that feeds into the CSV and connects between this pipe and the copper inlet pipe from the well. It sits near the floor just below the assembly in the pictures.

One other thing just occurred to me relative to the 10 PSI remaining on the gauge..when I removed the gauge there was "standing" water in the T inlet and pipe connecting the switch, gauge, and tank. Wonder if this is a function of the check valve and that's where the pressure is coming from.

Pictures:

 

[Reach4]

Got it.

1. Is your submersible pump a 3-wire pump, and how long has it been in service?
2. When you removed the pressure gauge, had you closed the orange-handled valve that blocks the water to the house
3. When the pressure gauge was off, was water pouring out of the open tee?

What I am getting at with #2 and #3 is wondering if that 8-10 psi is due to the weight of the water in the pipes from the second story. What I am getting at with #1 is wondering if your pump is slow to start because the start capacitor in a control box for a 3-wire pump is getting weak with age.

Another possibility for a delay in water arriving from the pump is that there is a tiny leak before the topside check valve, and the pipe to a depth of about 28 ft (at your high altitude) is draining of water and filling with water vapor. The leak would be below the water line, since you did not mention air in your water. The leak could be your check valve at the pump is not closing all of the way.Removal (or gutting) of the topside check valve may work around or even eliminate that problem. On the other hand, the topside check valve may have been put in to work around a failed check valve at the pump.

I would add support for the pex line coming from the pump via the topside check valve.

 

[ChrisnCO]

Got it.

1. Is your submersible pump a 3-wire pump, and how long has it been in service? Yes 3 wire & long before we owned this cabin, probably original pump and 25 years or so. By the book, getting toward end of life; but, it's continued to pump it's normal GPM and until this recent pressure lag issue no other indications of failure or degradation.
2. When you removed the pressure gauge, had you closed the orange-handled valve that blocks the water to the house. Tried it both ways open and closed and no impact on the PSI
3. When the pressure gauge was off, was water pouring out of the open tee? No, a few drips when re-inserting gauge from standing water in there; but, no real pressure.

What I am getting at with #2 and #3 is wondering if that 8-10 psi is due to the weight of the water in the pipes from the second story. What I am getting at with #1 is wondering if your pump is slow to start because the start capacitor in a control box for a 3-wire pump is getting weak with age.

Another possibility for a delay in water arriving from the pump is that there is a tiny leak before the topside check valve, and the pipe to a depth of about 28 ft (at your high altitude) hmmm..this house is at 8750 ft and well is drilled to 250 ft. is draining of water and filling with water vapor. The leak would be below the water line, since you did not mention air in your water. The leak could be your check valve at the pump is not closing all of the way.Removal (or gutting) of the topside check valve may work around or even eliminate that problem. I was thinking about pulling it out next if I didn't find another obvious fix..thanks again for all your suggestions!

I would add support for the pex line coming from the pump via the topside check valve Thanks, I'll look at adding a strap or other support.

 

[Reach4]

Your control box is probably Franklin.

I would replace the start capacitor, and see if that totally fixes it. Often the action is to replace the control box, which includes the capacitor, because those are easier to find. But you can order a capacitor and replace just that. That would probably be easier to replace than a box, and would certainly be cheaper. Those are non-polarized electrolytic capacitors, and if yours 20+ years old is way past its expected life.

If that does not totally fix it, I would take the innards out of the topside check valve. If that improves it, rejoice.

 

[Valveman]

See if the 1/4" snubber before the pressure gauge and switch has a number 304 on the side of it? Some of our kits have been getting a snubber we don't recognize. It looks the same on the outside except has 304 printed on the side. Ours do not have any numbers. These 302 snubbers are filled with plastic and only works for a short while before they become completely clogged. We do not know where these are coming from, but this will be the fifth one I have seen if that is your problem. If if is your problem either just leave the snubber out or drill an 1/8" hole through the plastic in the middle. And please let me know if that is what it is.

 

[ChrisnCO]

See if the 1/4" snubber before the pressure gauge and switch has a number 304 on the side of it? Some of our kits have been getting a snubber we don't recognize. It looks the same on the outside except has 304 printed on the side. Ours do not have any numbers. These 302 snubbers are filled with plastic and only works for a short while before they become completely clogged. We do not know where these are coming from, but this will be the fifth one I have seen if that is your problem. If if is your problem either just leave the snubber out or drill an 1/8" hole through the plastic in the middle. And please let me know if that is what it is.

 

[ChrisnCO]

Not sure what part the "snubber" is; but, I do see 304 on both the Tee piece that the gauge screws into and on the 1/2 x 1/4" piece (the 1st piece on the extension from the CSV). I took the assembly apart this weekend and wish I would have seen this first! I've taken photos of the "304" on both and will try to call into CSV support this afternoon to discuss before taking it apart again as I have to remove switch wiring to twist off and it's a bit of a PITA.

Thanks for posting and hoping this is my problem!

 

[Valveman]

The snubber has 1/4" female on one end and female on the other and looks like this.

 

[Valveman]

If it has a 1/8" hole all the way through and looks like this, it is not your problem.

 

[ChrisnCO]

If it has a 1/8" hole all the way through and looks like this, it is not your problem.
View attachment 58859

Thanks Cary,

I finally got around to taking the snubber assembly off again today and there was a solid plastic piece with a number "3" on it inside the snubber piece. I went ahead and drilled a 1/8" hole in it (per your suggestion) and found a bit of iron/rust build up behind it. Reinstalled the piece, reconnected the switch & gauge; and, it then functioned as expected. No more weird pressure build-ups or delayed pressure before cut in. As of the first couple test cycles I would say the problem is fixed and that the snubber piece must have been the problem.

 

[Valveman]

Thanks Cary,

I finally got around to taking the snubber assembly off again today and there was a solid plastic piece with a number "3" on it inside the snubber piece. I went ahead and drilled a 1/8" hole in it (per your suggestion) and found a bit of iron/rust build up behind it. Reinstalled the piece, reconnected the switch & gauge; and, it then functioned as expected. No more weird pressure build-ups or delayed pressure before cut in. As of the first couple test cycles I would say the problem is fixed and that the snubber piece must have been the problem.

I am positive it was. Sorry for the problem and thanks for letting us know.
Cary

 

[PaulO]

And Lag In Inside Water Pressure

Trying to diagnose the cause of a recent phenomenon where our inside water pressure is dropping/lagging (sometimes all the way off for a second or two) each time our tanks drains and pressure switch cuts in.

My system is comprised of submersible pump with check valve, then another check valve inside the house (at install the diagram called for this; but, seen many posts saying to remove..could be causing my problem?), 40/60 pressure switch, pressure gauge, and a smaller tank with Cycle Stop Valve. Post-install the system worked fine for about a year and a half. Then, recently, started getting the lag in house water pressure as the switch was cutting in.

Based on gauge (which may be faulty?), pressure switch is cutting in at 40 and out at 60; and, CSV is running at 50 PSI, all exactly as they should, which makes me think pressure gauge is ok.

I notice several oddities when I monitor the system operation:

1. After shutting off pump breaker and opening faucets, the gauge stops at 8-10 PSI (I would expect 0 psi?). Wonder what could cause this beside a bad gauge? I removed the gauge and the pressure goes to zero, as it should. Screw it back on and it goes right back to 8-10 PSI. No noticeable block on gauge nipple or in female T end. So, if not a bad gauge, where could this 10 PSI be coming from and could it be impacting my PSI measurement on the tank at the Schrader valve and/or of the switch cut in and out pressures (meaning while the gauge says 40/60 they are really lower due to this mysterious 10 PSI of pressure in the system.

2. After switch cut out, the pressure on the gauge goes up to nearly 80 PSI, then very slowly seems to creep back down toward the 60's.

3. When doing a run down cycle with the water faucet on, I see the pressure gauge drop very fast starting between 44 and 46 PSI and down to 40 when the switch cuts in. It's during this fast drop that the inside water pressure lags or water stops entirely. ***Update..I experimented by taking air out of the pressure tank and the water pressure lag disappeared at around 32 PSI...seemed to work fine for about a month, then problem reappeared. Lowered tank PSI to 26 PSI and water pressure lag went away again. I'm guessing another short term fix as the PSI numbers are not in synch at all..trying to understand what's happening to cause this.

My first instinct was an incorrect tank charge pressure; but, totally confused by the 10 PSI on the gauge and wondering what's might be causing this reading (bad gauge, clogged line to gauge, above surface check valve)? I thought I'd post here before throwing parts at it and hoping someone might have some insight or ideas. Thanks in advance to all!

I ran into this issue too. Water pressure in the house would collapse, but gauge said >40psi and it would only drop very slowly if I had the circuit breaker off. With the circuit breaker on, pressure (per the gauge) would continue to drop slowly to 40psi and then the pump would start. pressure switch would open at 60psi like normal, but pressure on the gauge would keep rising, sometimes to 80-90psi! Weird! I finally figured it out. The 1/4" galvanized pipe up to the pressure switch and gauge was completely gunked up with sediment where it met the main line. So pressure would build in the tank and house plumbing, but the gunk plug meant the water could only move up and down the 1/4" pipe to the pressure switch and gauge extremely slowly, forced through the gunk plug by a significant pressure differential. This created a big lag between pressure changes in the house and pressure tank, and pressure at the pressure switch and gauge. I replaced the pressure switch, gauge, and 1/4" piping and fittings rather than mess around with trying to clean the sediment out of this stuff. Now the system is back to running like it should. - best of luck to anybody who stumbles across this.

 

[Valveman]

It is very important that the 1/4" nipple not be galvanized steel as it will rust up and clog much faster than SS or brass.