Pentair 64k Grain System - Not Using Salt?

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BBdude

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Hi All - Did a lot of searching and did not find an answer to my question.

I had a 64,000 grain Pentair system installed in November 2021. The brine tank accepted around 10 or so 40lb bags of salt at install. We're a family of 6 and our home has 2 full baths and a half bath. We're outside Buffalo.

So far I'd say 2x40lbs bags, maybe 3, have been used. I expected to have used far more salt by now. How can I know if the system is working properly? Maybe my water isn't THAT hard so it's not using as much?

I did find many posters talking about salt bridge. I checked and do not have a salt bridge. You can see the water in the brine tank just barely below the top of the salt.

Thanks in advance for any input!
 

Reach4

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Get a Hach 5-B test. Test your softened water. Expect no more than one drop to turn the test solution blue. With really soft water, the solution would turn blue before any drops.

While testing the softened water will test the softener, you might as well test your raw water too. Usually the outdoor hose spigots are unsoftened water.

Also, there is a number that alternates with the time on the display. Does that number count down when you use water? So you could take a reading, and wait a day, or you could take a shower. See what happens to the number.
 

WorthFlorida

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Read the manual for programming and check the settings. Most models now have regeneration cycles based on usage but less than 100lbs over 18 months seems that something is wrong. First does the water feel soft, generally you'll suds up with very little soap and the water on the skin will feel slippery. If not you're not regenerating as needed or none at all. Do a few manual regenerations and watch the brine level, it should go down with each regen cycle.

Bannermann has a good write up on salt usage,
 
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BBdude

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Get a Hach 5-B test. Test your softened water. Expect no more than one drop to turn the test solution blue. With really soft water, the solution would turn blue before any drops.

While testing the softened water will test the softener, you might as well test your raw water too. Usually the outdoor hose spigots are unsoftened water.

Also, there is a number that alternates with the time on the display. Does that number count down when you use water? So you could take a reading, and wait a day, or you could take a shower. See what happens to the number.

Thank you for the input, Reach4. I found the test on Amazon and will take a look.

I checked the display and the buttons are locked, but the time shows and to the right it says 1850 gallons. I suppose this number should change so I'll take a look tomorrow.
 

BBdude

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Thank you for the input, Reach4. I found the test on Amazon and will take a look.

I checked the display and the buttons are locked, but the time shows and to the right it says 1850 gallons. I suppose this number should change so I'll take a look tomorrow.
Turns out 1850 gallons is some static number that doesn't change.

Any idea how to unlock the display so I can check any of the settings?
 

Reach4

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Your display should not lock. The up and down buttons should change the time, for example.

Post a photo of your valve, preferable with the cover lifted. You want to know what valve you have, and then you can find the service manual. Was a manual provided with your system?

So why would the gallons not count down? It should decrement as you use water. Could be the turbine or paddlewheel is stuck, or MISSING. It could be the pickup is defective. It could be that the circuit board is defective.
 

BBdude

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Your display should not lock. The up and down buttons should change the time, for example.

Post a photo of your valve, preferable with the cover lifted. You want to know what valve you have, and then you can find the service manual. Was a manual provided with your system?

So why would the gallons not count down? It should decrement as you use water. Could be the turbine or paddlewheel is stuck, or MISSING. It could be the pickup is defective. It could be that the circuit board is defective.
Thanks, @Reach4 ! I found the manual and it says there's a series of steps to access the menu. The Installer's menu settings appear commensurate with the manual. I also found the diagnostic menu and was surprised by what I found:

In Service: 226 days
# of Regens since install: 7
Total volume of water used since install: 0
Flow Rate: 0
Avg Vol: 0

Here's a photo of the controller and valve. If I understand you correctly, you want me to remove the cover that has the two (2) green marks? Do I need to shut off anything first to do this?

1.jpg

2.jpg
 
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Reach4

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Does the manual give a name for the product other than Pentair? Look at the top of the first/cover page. I don't recognize the valve.

I don't know if I should be able to see an indication that there is a meter in your photo.

Is there a part number at the very end of the manual? I am thinking of something like "12345 REV X".
 

BBdude

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Does the manual give a name for the product other than Pentair? Look at the top of the first/cover page. I don't recognize the valve.

I don't know if I should be able to see an indication that there is a meter in your photo.

Is there a part number at the very end of the manual? I am thinking of something like "12345 REV X".
Thanks again, @Reach4 . Nothing on the first / cover page. Back on the manual says 37297 Rev C March 21.

When I googled the above it links me to my manual:
 

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That is the old Erie 2000 valve, I used to work on these extensively, not a very good valve in my opinion, you may be best served by replacing the valve rather than chasing the problems that this valve tends to have.
1657574485192.png
 

BBdude

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That is the old Erie 2000 valve, I used to work on these extensively, not a very good valve in my opinion, you may be best served by replacing the valve rather than chasing the problems that this valve tends to have.
Thanks, @ditttohead ! What valve would you recommend it be replaced with? Would you expect the plumber to replace this at cost or charge labor as well? Much appreciate your input.
 

BBdude

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When they originally installed the softener a part came broken and it was on backorder. When they installed the softner at the time they finished about 85% of it. When I had the plumber out today, he saw the error immediately. The line from the water main was never installed so the water was just looping - never touching the salt. Basically it's been sitting there for a year unused.

Hard to see, but here's a snapshot:

plumbing.jpg
 

BBdude

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So I'm starting to grow frustrated with my plumber. They've done A LOT of work on my house and we haven't had many issues, but this softener is becoming one.

The issue is my city water branches out to my home almost immediately off the street and is ~150' from the softener. So during the initial install they made a series of uninformed assumptions. Then during the fix today for the above, plumber adjusted the pipes so that most water that goes to the water heater is softened. Meanwhile, only 'some' cold water is softened.

My concern is really around pipes 3, 5, 6 and 7. City water comes in from the street via pipe 1 and then passed along to pipe 3. The cold city water at the end of pipe 3 goes into pipe 6. Pipe 6 sends city water to pipe 7, but pipe 5 also sends softened water to pipe 7.

From my perspective, we're not getting 100% hot softened water and probably little (if any) cold softened water. In short, the plumber really needs to run a dedicated pipe from the city water, then to the softener, and then a tee where half goes to softener and other half feeds house with cold water.

Hope you guys like visuals! There are ~9 lines you see here.
1 - City water from street
2 - City water directed to water powered backup sump
3 - Problem area
4 - Cold water from street going to softener
5 - Softened water
6 - Problem area
7 - Softened water that goes through a copper tee and splits up (cold) and down (towards water heater)
8 - Water from copper tee directed to both hot water tanks
9 - Hot water

1.jpg
 

Bannerman

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Why was this made so unnecessarily complicated?

The typical install after the water enters the home will be to Tee off to supply exterior irrigation with unsoftened 'Raw' water. The main line after the irrigation Tee will then usually supply the water softener and/or other water treatment devices which then feeds the WH and Cold faucets. In this manner, 100% of the hot water and 100% of cold water will be softened.

I'm continually amazed at the number of posters who rely on a general plumber for water treatment equipment instead of utilizing a water treatment specialist.
 

Reach4

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It looks to me that both WHs are fed by the softener. It is not clear where the two WH outputs go.

Many feed non-softened water to the kitchen sink cold, because they prefer that for drinking.
 

BBdude

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Why was this made so unnecessarily complicated?

The typical install after the water enters the home will be to Tee off to supply exterior irrigation with unsoftened 'Raw' water. The main line after the irrigation Tee will then usually supply the water softener and/or other water treatment devices which then feeds the WH and Cold faucets. In this manner, 100% of the hot water and 100% of cold water will be softened.

I'm continually amazed at the number of posters who rely on a general plumber for water treatment equipment instead of utilizing a water treatment specialist.
In my opinion, he didn't properly plan and so took shortcuts or just made some faulty assumptions. Now I think it's just laziness ... they don't want to run 150' of copper pipe and they know I won't pay for it at this point.

Where I used to live I hired Culligan directly and it was a great experience. Up herein Buffalo I had trouble finding someone that worked directly for the softening company, only plumbers. Sounds like I was looking in the wrong place .. lesson learned.

Suffice to say it sounds like you think they should fix their mess :). Going to probably take them an entire day. They've already spent 2 days on it so far.
 

BBdude

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Not sure what the plumber did, but this morning our hot water is full of salt. Tastes like the ocean!
 

Bannerman

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Suffice to say it sounds like you think they should fix their mess
I actually think they don't know what they are doing when it comes to water treatment.

Proprietary brands such as the one you mention, are not generally recommended in this forum because parts and service is often only available from their closed dealer network.

Generic water treatment dealers typically will offer Clack and Fleck brand control valves, tanks and other components. Those brands offer high quality equipment which parts will typically remain available for several decades and are supported by numerous independent dealers in which to choose from.
 

BBdude

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I actually think they don't know what they are doing when it comes to water treatment.

Proprietary brands such as the one you mention, are not generally recommended in this forum because parts and service is often only available from their closed dealer network.

Generic water treatment dealers typically will offer Clack and Fleck brand control valves, tanks and other components. Those brands offer high quality equipment which parts will typically remain available for several decades and are supported by numerous independent dealers in which to choose from.
Thanks for the feedback. Hindsight is 20/20 and I have to live with my mistake. Fortunately their master plumber came out just a few minutes ago and seems to know what he's doing. Salt issue is fixed for now by closing the softener valve. Hopefully the adjustments he's making now and next week remediate the issue fully. If not, I told them be prepared to pull it out :)
 
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