New Well Pump and Pressure Tank - Worked for 24 hours

[NIS240SHU]

Hi all,

I'm a bit at my wit's end and need some guidance.

Location: NJ

OLD SETUP: 6" Cast Iron Well Casing, 1/2HP, 115V, 10GPM STA-RITE 10SP4C01J-02, Installed March 2000, 42-gallon air over water tank, 30/50 SqD pressure switch with burned contacts

At that time: Water level 62', Well depth 170', Pump set 88' (Poly)

I diagnosed a failed pump at our house a few days ago. We had no water and the pump would read over 40A before falling to 0A. I'm assuming this was an onboard safety in the pump motor. Although the contacts were in bad shape, they were closed and calling for water. I double-checked voltage was passing through and current was flowing according to my meter.

I already had a new WX-255 pressure tank and an Amtrol Guardian CP purchased a few years back in anticipation of getting rid of the air over water unit. New tank tee, added check valve just before tank tee (mistake?), ball valve just after tank to isolate the house.

I purchased essentially the same pump locally.

NEW SETUP: 1/2HP, 115V, 10GPM PENTAIR MODEL #S10K05121-02, new Well-X-Trol WX-255 81-gallon pressure tank, Amtrol Guardian CP control set to 30/50.

I re-used the old stainless pump fitting and used teflon tape and pipe sealant (pipe sealant a mistake according to instruction manual). I installed 85ft of new 1" 200psi IPS poly pipe. Re-used the old check valve that's just before the re-used pitless adapter. Pump wire was transferred to new pipe and taped every 2ft. Connection to pump was made with crimps and waterproofing heat shrink sleeves.

Before installing the check valve and pitless adapter onto the poly, I installed a temporary gate valve 1/3 open per the instructions to clear out the line. Our water is generally very clear. Because of that and because we were working in the bitter cold, we only did that for maybe 30 seconds. During that, we did get an "E2" error code from the Guardian CP control indicating Low Water Cutoff. At that point we figured we had the pump too high and set it into the pitless adapter.

We got water into the new tank and throughout the house, though we were getting air through the system, even though we initially purged everything as we have before whenever I've had to pump up the old air over water pressure tank.

Things worked for about 24 hours.

As I was about to put the pump stickers on the pressure tank, I thought I should record the pump's running amps to help myself/someone else in the future. It was running at 9.0A, but it then never stopped and all I could hear was dripping water in the pipes between the entry to the house and the pressure tank, not the nice hum of a solid lug of water pumping through. I thought it might be a leaking o-ring on the pitless, but I could not see any leaks when the pump was running.

Today I measured about 76ft from the well cap to the water surface using a water bottle with some water in it tied to a 100ft fiberglass tape reel. The pitless adapter is about 3ft down. With my 85ft of pipe + 1ft of fittings to the pitless + 1ft from the pump head to the inlet, that's 87ft. I'm fairly certain I need to set the pump deeper given I'm at best 14-15ft below the surface and that's only about 20gal of water. The drawdown of the WX-255 is 25gal at 30/50.

I decided to pull the pump. As I did this, I ran a few tests.

- Lifted from pitless adapter and turned on: no water from pitless.

- Ran it again with ammeter, Getting 21A max on startup and settles to about 9.5A running. But no water. Also can't tell the pump is torquing anymore.

Right now the whole thing is sitting in my garage and basement so it doesn't freeze. I'm going to try to bench test it in a big garbage can.

What else could be the problem? The extra check valve just before the tank? What about the one that was already there? I don't see any splits or breaks in the poly pipe or at the pump outlet, though I still have to test.

I really appreciate any insight and especially if you stuck it out and read this whole book!

Thanks,

Helder

 

[Reach4]

While adding that check valve just before the pressure tank was not a good idea, that would not cause your no-water symptoms.

Re-used the old check valve that's just before the re-used pitless adapter.

And you have another check valve just below the pitless? Also not a good idea, but should not cause those symptoms.

9.5A on a 115 volt 1/2 HP motor seems high enough to indicate you are in water... In other words, that would be a fairly expected amps. If you had a big hole in the pipe letting the pumped water out, current would be higher.

Seeing the current also indicates that the Guardian CP pump protector is not blocking the current.

Tough one.

While you had things apart, you should have removed the drain-back valve or drain-back hole. Maybe you did.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[NIS240SHU]

Thanks for your response. Are you saying drain-back valve/hole to mean the check valves?

The whole assembly is in my house as we speak so that I could inspect/test without having it freeze in the weather outside. I can do whatever testing needs to be done while it’s out of the ground.

 

[Reach4]

No.

With an air over water tank, air gets absorbed into the water. Air must be added back in, and a common way that was/is done is to put a drain back valve or even a small hole, in the drop pipe about 5 ft down. Then up top with that system, there is a check valve in line with the tank, but a special Schrader valve (called a snifter valve) is put on the well-side of the check valve. The hole/valve lets some water out, and that causes a vacuum. That snifter admits air.

A drain back valve theoretically lets water out only if the pressure in the pipe is less than maybe 5 psi. A hole just lets out a bit of water, with more water spraying out with more pressure.

So with a precharged pressure tank, no air is wanted. So no snifter valve, and ideally no topside check valve.

It is possible to inject air other ways, perhaps manually with an air compressor now and then. So if relying on that, then no drain back would be there.

 

[NIS240SHU]

I see what you mean now. I’ve had to manually top off the air in the old tank (with a bike pump!) periodically during our last 9-10 years in this house. I’ll look for anything in the upper portion of the piping and fittings up near the pitless, which I reused.

Thanks again for your advice.

EDIT: It looks like the valve on my old tank may be a snifter valve, though I never knew it.

 

[Bannerman]

Looks like the valve on my old tank may be a snifter valve

The snifter valve appears similar to a tire fill valve. A snifter will be typically located directly on the supply line, just before the pressure tank, and is often combined into the same assembly as a check valve.

An air volume control will usually be located on the side or top of the tank. Most AVCs are float controlled valves which will discharge excess air from the tank when too much air has entered due to the action of the snifter and drain back valve. With this type of system, air will be added with the initial water flow each time the pump becomes activated.

As Reach4 said, wth switching from a hydro pneumatic (air over water) pressure tank to a captive air tank, the snifter, drain back valve and AVC are no longer required and will need to be removed. This includes all upper check valves as the only check valve to be present, is the one within the pump. If you wish an additional check valve for redundancy, an external one maybe threaded directly to the pump's outlet fitting.

Removing the upper check valve(s) will then permit the pressure tank to maintain pressure in the supply line and drop pipe back to tthe pump while the pump is shut off. This will be safer as the pressurized piping is less likely to permit contaminants to enter if there is any leakage in the buried supply line between the well and house. The absence of upper check valve(s) also will assist to identify if there is any leakage between the pressure tank and pump as leakage will cause the pump to periodicaly run when no water has been consumed within the house.

 

[2stupid2fixit]

Obstruction between pump and pitless?

 

[NIS240SHU]

I wanted to come back here to let you know what I found.

- I did find a snifter valve on a check valve, right at the entrance through the block into the basement. I knew there was a check valve there, but never looked closely enough and completely missed the air valve. It's been removed along with the new check valve I installed just before the pressure tank. I also removed the one that was already installed just before the pitless adapter.

- I bench tested the pump in a garbage can of water along with the pitless and got just about zero flow and the pump didn't sound great. I cut the IPS pipe just above the pump and found that the pump's internal check valve broke off and got lodged into the adapter, shutting off all flow.

I replaced the pump with another brand new one and returned the defective one for warranty today.

I was fully prepared to blame myself and accept a $500 mistake, but the story became very clear as I went.

As I was removing the check valve just ahead of the pitless adapter, I found a C-shaped piece of white plastic that got lodged into the check valve. That was part of the pump's check valve.

Then it occurred to me that during the first startup of the pump (with a temporary gate valve 1/3 open attached) a small piece of plastic about 1/4" long was lodged in the gate valve. At first I thought it was a bit of ice that had formed since it was only 19*F out when I was working on the replacement, but later realized it was a bit of plastic. I didn't think too hard about it at the time, but it suddenly all made sense. I was not to blame. It was just a factory defect and it happened right at the first start.

I suspect the ball was tumbling around during each cycle until at some point the round end lodged itself solidly in the adapter.

THANK YOU to all who provided input. I really appreciate communities like this one.