New homeowner and new to well system need advice with my setup

[Cardinalfan]

Hello all!

As title says I’m new to owning a home with a well system and would appreciate some advice/input. I’m trying to figure out the best and most cost effective way to get more pressure and consistency out of my water system. Since I have moved into our place I have upgraded the pressure tank from a 30 gallon to 86 gallon. It seemed like with the 30 gallon whenever I would shower the pump would cycle to much causing the pressure to go up and down to much and the 86 gallon has helped with that issue quite a bit!

for the most part the water pressure seems acceptable when running the sink or showering but where I really get annoyed is when I’m watering the lawn or doing anything with the garden hose. I have a shop on my property and ran a water line out to it last summer. I ran a 1” pex line and ended up putting my original 30gallon pressure tank out there. I would assume it’s acting more as a holding tank as it is just being fed from the house water supply. I have tried it both ways running the water with the tank in line and then disconnecting the tank and running everything straight off the manifold with the manifold capped off where it would hook to the tank and I don’t notice much of a difference!

In the house on my main pressure tank I have a 60/40 switch and I’m seeing about 50 psi out at the shop! The water line running out to the shop is about 250 ft long so I would expect some pressure drop with that long of a run.

With the tank hooked up if I’m running the hose for a short time it’s is better than having it disconnected but that only lasts a short time until the tank is drained then I’m just running straight off the water supply. Like i stated earlier where I get really annoyed is when I’m washing the floors/ watering the lawn or doing anything that requires using a lot of water. I have gone down the worm hole of the internet and seen there is things like “cycle stop valves” and booster pumps and really expensive constant pressure well pump systems and I’m just not quite sure what the best way to get good consistent pressure and volume for both house and shop. The house is older and I have no idea how old the well pump is or what the specs on it are! The only thing I miss about my old place is the being on city water you could crank the water on and go with no pressure drops but other than that I don’t miss anything else lol! I’m obviously no Plummer but am learning as I go and I’m looking to get some tips from you guys with experience in this field on what you would do or what the best route to go would be!

Thanks for taking the time to read my lengthy post and appreciate any input!

Thanks Aaron

 

[Valveman]

First, I hate it when someone complains about water pressure and wishing they had city water. It is your water system. You can have as much pressure and volume as you want. You just have to make it happen.

Secondly, I am sorry you are getting lost in the weeds of constant pressure systems and figuring out what to do. I feel responsible for that problem as I started the constant pressure craze in the early 90's. Because I had the patent on the Cycle Stop Valve it caused many other companies to try and devise a way to compete. Therefore, there are a bunch of different types of pump controls all claiming to do what the Cycle Stop Valve does.

I would recommend going with the constant pressure control that hasn't changed in over 30 years, that will make showers so strong you will no longer need soap, and is guaranteed to work or your money back. Lol! There is only one that fits that description.

40 to 60 is usually plenty of pressure for a house. With the old pressure tank method that means you will get an average of 50 PSI. When the pump is on and filling the pressure tank to 60 the shower pressure is good. But when the tank is draining from 60 to 40 the shower pressure is disappointing. The larger pressure tank means you get a few extra seconds of good pressure as it takes longer to fill the large tank. But then you will have much longer periods of low pressure as it takes longer for the tank to empty down to 40 PSI.

A constant 50 from a CSV would seem like much stronger pressure. But that only happens after the tank is empty. So, the larger tank (20 gal draw) is a hindrance to good pressure. The 30 gallon tank will only hold 8 gallons of water, and would give strong constant pressure from a CSV much sooner than with a large tank.

If when opening up that big 1" line the pump no longer cycles and the pressure just stays low like 20-30 PSI, you are just using more water than the pump can supply. With a CSV you can use as large a pump as you want for max flow during high demands, and the CSV will still deliver strong constant pressure to a single shower when that is all that is needed.

 

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[Bannerman]

It seemed like with the 30 gallon whenever I would shower the pump would cycle to much causing the pressure to go up and down to much and the 86 gallon has helped with that issue quite a bit!

With a typical well system such as yours, with any water use, pressure will be either falling from 60 to 40 psi, or will be rising from 40 to 60 psi.

As stated above, your 30 gallon tank stores about 8 gallons drawdown, so 8 gallons water use will cause the pressure to drop from 60 to 40. Once at 40 psi, the pressure switch will activate the pump and pressure will begin to rise back-up to 60. Once the pressure has risen to 60 psi, the pressure switch will shut off the pump and any further water use will again cause the pressure to again begin to lower down to 40.

The 86 gallon tank will store about 20 gallons drawdown, but just as with the smaller tank, pressure continues to be either falling or rising, but more slowly in both directions.

I have a 60/40 switch and I’m seeing about 50 psi out at the shop!

With no water being utilized, the static pressure in the shop should equal the static pressure in the house at that specific time. The only reason for the static pressure in the shop to be lower, is if the shop's pressure measurement location is elevated substantially higher than where the pressure is being measured within the house. If there is not a large variance in elevation between the two measurement locations, then it's highly likely, the pressure within the house was also about 50 psi at that specific moment.

ran a 1” pex line and ended up putting my original 30gallon pressure tank out there. I would assume it’s acting more as a holding tank ... running the hose for a short time it’s is better than having it disconnected but that only lasts a short time until the tank is drained then I’m just running straight off the water supply.

As stated above, once the drawdown capacity has been consumed to cause the pressure to lower from 60 to 40 psi to activate the pump, a pressure tank at that point contains almost 0 remaining water. All water is supplied by the pump.

A pressure tank is designed to store pressure, to maintain pressure in the system whenever the pump is shut off. The tank's drawdown capacity provides a method to control the minimum amount of time a pump will run. Sufficient drawdown capacity should result in the pump to run for 60-120 seconds when no water is further consumed once the pump becomes activated.

Connecting both the 30 and 86 gallon tanks to the system, increased the total system drawdown capacity to ~28 gallons, so 28 gallons water use in the house, shop or both, will cause the pressure to drop from 60 to 40 psi. Unfortunately, locating the 30 gallon tank so far away from the 86 gallon tank is not good practice nor recommended as friction within the 250'+ piping distance between the two tanks, can slow the fill rate to the distant tank. When this occurs, then the pressure switch will sense 60 psi and shut off the pump when the 86 gallon tank becomes filled, but then the 86 gallon tank will continue to supply some amount of water to the 30 gallon tank, which will result in the system pressure to equalize to less than 60 psi a short time later.

As Valveman stated, a Cycle Stop Valve will best address your concerns and complaints.

A CSV will provide constant pressure once the pump is running, and because the CSV will prevent the pump from cycling, thereby extending the reliability and lifespan of the pump and other components, a large pressure tank would not be needed for your application. The expense for the 86 gallon tank would have likely covered the cost for a CSV system such as the PK1A Pside-Kick kit shown HERE.

As you have already invested in the large 86 gallon tank, that tank could continue to be utilized with a CSV, but as Valveman suggested, to reduce the amount of water consumed before the pump becomes activated, instead use the 30 gallon tank. That could then permit you to sell the 86 gallon tank.

As a CSV will usually be calibrated to supply 50 psi constant when using a 40/60 pressure switch, if your pump is capable of building higher pressure, then it maybe possible to use a 50/70 or 60/80 pressure switch, thereby permitting the CSV to be calibrated to supply 60 or 70 psi constant to fixtures once the pump becomes activated.

For a demonstration on how a CSV functions, view the interactive animation at THIS LINK.

 

[Fitter30]

A.O. Smith PM 86200 40-60 lb 23.2 gallons is the draw down, 30 gallon 8.5 gallon
1" pex tubing holds 3.03 gallon per 100' 250' 7.5 gallons + 8.5 = 16 gallons
23.2 + 16 = 39.2 gallons
If theres 4.25 lbs pressre drop @ 5 gpm in 250' ( gpm goes up so does the pressure drop)
System at 60 lbs pump off. House calls water drops to 55 lbs it will start to pull water from the shop water gets to 40 lbs pump comes on while supplying the open faucet. What we don't know what the actual gpm the pump is putting out. So if the faucet is 2 gpm, pump is 8 gpm, 6 is going to refill 39.2 + house piping
Napkin math 39.2 +2 .8 house = 42 gallons 7 minutes don't think the pipe volume would change much from filled to 40-60 lbs.

 

[Cardinalfan]

Thanks so much for the input! One thing I forgot to mention is that we did install a check valve for the water supply out to the shop but obviously that doesn’t have much to do with my pressure issue. So just so I understand this right the best solution would be to ditch the 86 gallon tank and get a cycle stop valve and put my original 30 gallon tank back in the house or get the kit with the cycle stop valve that comes with the smaller tank and don’t use any tank in the shop?

Then I will have good consistent pressure at the house and shop all around obviously depending on what my pump will put out and what it can keep up with? Again I have no idea what I have for a pump or how deep my well is! And I’m assuming there is no way to determine what the specs of my pump are without taking out correct? I would like to run a 50/70 or even a 80/60 switch if I could but again we don’t know about the pump I have.

Sorry if these are dumb questions up until a short time ago I didn’t know anything much about how this stuff works aside from cranking the water on and spraying the neighbors cat down when he walks on my truck lol

Thanks again for the help fellas

 

[Cardinalfan]

Thanks so much for the input! One thing I forgot to mention is that we did install a check valve for the water supply out to the shop but obviously that doesn’t have much to do with my pressure issue. So just so I understand this right the best solution would be to ditch the 86 gallon tank and get a cycle stop valve and put my original 30 gallon tank back in the house or get the kit with the cycle stop valve that comes with the smaller tank and don’t use any tank in the shop?

Then I will have good consistent pressure at the house and shop all around obviously depending on what my pump will put out and what it can keep up with? Again I have no idea what I have for a pump or how deep my well is! And I’m assuming there is no way to determine what the specs of my pump are without taking out correct? I would like to run a 50/70 or even a 80/60 switch if I could but again we don’t know about the pump I have.

Sorry if these are dumb questions up until a short time ago I didn’t know anything much about how this stuff works aside from cranking the water on and spraying the neighbors cat down when he walks on my truck lol

Thanks again for the help fellas

 

[Valveman]

Sorry for the delay. The Cycle Stop Valve will stop the cycling and give you strong constant pressure no matter what size tank you have. However, as was said the CSV cannot do anything until the pump starts and the larger the tank the longer you are getting water from the tank at a decreasing pressure. Big tanks are fine with a CSV if you can live with a few minutes of decreasing pressure before you see the good stuff.

 

[Bannerman]

we did install a check valve for the water supply out to the shop

The check valve will prevent the shop's tank from feeding back to the home's fixtures. As such, ~20 gallons water consumption in the house will cause the pressure to fall to 40 to cause the pump to become activated, whereas ~28 gallons consumption in the shop to achieve the same result.

don’t use any tank in the shop?

Correct. A pressure tank works with the pressure switch to control the operation of the well pump. All water is supplied by the pump. Any pressure tank(s) is to be located where the pressure switch is located.

A pressure tank will contain virtually 0 water once the pressure is reduced to the pump's activation pressure, so the tank in the shop is really only extending the amount of time that pressure is decreasing and before the pump becomes activated to cause pressure to increase.

I would like to run a 50/70 or even a 80/60 switch if I could

You might try adjusting your exisitng pressure switch to increase the cut-out pressure to 85-90psi to test if your pump can build sufficient pressure for the pressure switch to shut off the pump. If so, then a 80/60 pressure range setting should be possible. If the pump struggles to build to 85, you could then reduce the setting to what the pump can build to. Once that is determined, then reduce the cutout setting by 5-10 psi to provide some safety margin, incase the water level in the well becomes lower after being pumped out for some time.