New home, new well, questions

[itnetpro]

LocationDowningtown

• 55 minutes ago
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• #1

Hi all,

I attached the drill results…

We are building a new home that will include a well. I am new to wells. So, here are the results…
400’ 4GPM
6-42 weathered geiss 42-400 ft geiss
Well capped 10” metal pipe 60ft 60-400 ft is 6” through geiss
Water enters 1GPM 82 ft, 2GPM 160 & 1GPM 270 ft.
They want to drop a 3/4hp Franklin 3200 10GPM.
31 gallon holding tank.

I want my pump to be able to maintain 60PSI for a minimal of 30 minutes at a 10 gallon flow rate throughout the house. Based on my limited understanding, at the depth, the Franklin will be closer to 4-5 GPM.

I asked them to upgrade to a 1.5 HP 10 GPM and install the optional control module turbo boost thing?

So, a couple of questions, they never clearly explained some things to me, I don’t have an option, this driller works for the builder.
1. At 375ft, will this pump do what I want?
2. They say the $1,600 turbo booster module will increase/decrease the pump speed saving energy and wear and tear and maintain pressure. Is that true? Would that be over kill for that pump?
3. They never gave me a straight answer what the static water level will be. I’m assuming it will be at least 82ft? We are about 559ft above sea level in SE PA. Are there any assumptions that can be made about the water level and holding capacity when full with this well?
4. Is Franklin a reliable well pump manufacturer and how long do they last?
5. Any comments regarding the quality of the well such as cap level or Geiss would also be appreciated.
6. We are waiting for the county water quality results to determine filtration needs. I am going to add a UV regardless of bacteria results. I’m assuming that we will need to remove iron and soften the water based on other homes in the community. Are there any questions I should be asking and/or additional advice?

I had no idea how fascinating home wells are!

John

 

[Valveman]

With the pump set at 375' and a static level of 82', you would be able to use 10 GPM for about 40 minutes before pumping the well dry. But then you would have to wait about 2 hours before you could do it again. Any regular 10 GPM, 1.5HP pump will do that. I assume the "turbo boost" module is actually a VFD like a Subdrive. VARIABLE SPEED PUMPS DO NOT SAVE ENERY. Variable speed pumps or VFD's will deliver 60 PSI constant, but there are better ways to achieve that. That extra 1600 bucks for the VFD will be something you will have to repeat several times over the years as they are made to make more money for the pump people. Cycle Stop Valves were designed to replace VFD's and have been doing so for over 30 years. The CSV is a simple, inexpensive, long lasting way to get strong constant pressure, which is why pump installers push VFD's instead.

Franklin makes a good motor, but I don't like their pump. The 3200 is made for tight wells and yours is not. The J-Class is better but I still prefer a Grundfos or a Goulds pump with a Franklin motor. The Franklin pump makes too much back pressure to use a CSV and you would be stuck with the VFD Tar Baby. But with a Grundfos or Goulds pump a CSV1A and a 20 gallon size pressure tank would give you strong constant 60 PSI.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

With a low producing well you can have much more water to work with if you install a cistern or storage tank. With a 1000 gallon cistern you can use 10 GPM at 60 PSI constant for hours. You could also set a much less expensive pump in the well at a much shallower depth. This would save a lot of money and make the well pump last much longer as it is only used to fill the cistern and only cycles once or twice a day. Doesn't take much of a booster pump in the cistern to get 10-20 GPM at 60 PSI, and the Cycle Stop Valve would make the pressure strong and constant while using as small as a 4.5 gallon size tank.

 

[itnetpro]

With a low producing well you can have much more water to work with if you install a cistern or storage tank. With a 1000 gallon cistern you can use 10 GPM at 60 PSI constant for hours. You could also set a much less expensive pump in the well at a much shallower depth. This would save a lot of money and make the well pump last much longer as it is only used to fill the cistern and only cycles once or twice a day. Doesn't take much of a booster pump in the cistern to get 10-20 GPM at 60 PSI, and the Cycle Stop Valve would make the pressure strong and constant while using as small as a 4.5 gallon size tank.

View attachment 104846

 

[itnetpro]

HOA and home setup would prevent a large holding tank like this. The space is already taken by a 300 Gal tank for the sprinkler system.

In your opinion, if I don’t use a VFD, will that pump maintain municipal water pressure levels or should I push for the alternative CSV you mentioned? I won’t have an option to switch pump models, only increase to the 1.5hp. Franklin.

as an alternative, I could do the VFD later if we don’t get the pressure we want.

John

 

[Reach4]

A 6-inch casing gives you about 1.5 gallons per foot storage.

If the gpm reduces as the water falls to where you will suck air, I don't see that as a bad thing.

 

[Valveman]

HOA and home setup would prevent a large holding tank like this. The space is already taken by a 300 Gal tank for the sprinkler system.

In your opinion, if I don’t use a VFD, will that pump maintain municipal water pressure levels or should I push for the alternative CSV you mentioned? I won’t have an option to switch pump models, only increase to the 1.5hp. Franklin.

as an alternative, I could do the VFD later if we don’t get the pressure we want.

John

Most people use the same holding tank for the house and the sprinkler system. With a CSV you can use the same pump as well.
I don't know why the sprinkler system should have 300 gallons of storage but not the house?

If not using storage for the house I would go with the standard 1.5HP with the regular capacitor start/run control box and just install as large a pressure tank as possible. Even without a CSV a large pressure tank can make a pump system last 20-30 years and you would have replaced a VFD pump system several times over the same period.

 

[Bannerman]

The space is already taken by a 300 Gal tank for the sprinkler system.

I suspect the sprinkler system you refer to, may likely be required for fire suppression purposes, not for irrigation sprinklers.

Other than the quote from Valveman's post #5, I so far do not see where you posted that statement regarding a 300 gallon tank for the sprinkler system.

The report specifies a 10" diameter bore hole in which a 6" diameter steel casing was inserted and surround sealed with Bentonite from 0 to 60' depth. Below 60', the bore hole diameter was reduced to 6", penetrating directly through solid Gneiss rock, so no casing was installed from 60 - 400'.

They never gave me a straight answer what the static water level will be. I’m assuming it will be at least 82ft?

Your well maybe capable of storing a greater volume of water than you may currently suspect. Water passing within crevices and fissures through the surrounding rock that is supplying your well, will be typically under high pressure, so once the water enters the well bore, the resulting pressure drop, will often result in the water within the bore hole rising significantly above the level where water is actually entering the well.

I want my pump to be able to maintain 60PSI for a minimal of 30 minutes at a 10 gallon flow rate throughout the house.

What purpose do you expect to need a continuous 10 GPM flow rate? Is there a pool to fill or a high flow rate fixture such as a multi-head shower? People often assume they require significantly higher flow than what is required in actual practice.

If your well is supplying one single family residence, most water use will be 5 GPM or less, and unless irrigation is being performed, will be usually for a much shorter time period than 30-minutes continuous.

To supply a constant 60 psi to fixtures at 10 GPM, will require a pump capable of supplying at least 10 gpm, with a minimum of 543 feet of head (375' + 168' (=73 psi)) The pump would then supply the house through a CSV which is calibrated to supply 60 psi downstream. For the CSV to supply 60 psi, will typically utilize a pressure switch setting of 50/70 psi, so the additional 3 psi above 70, will ensure 70 psi will be reliably achieved to shut off the pump, even while the water within the well is pulled down to the minimum useable level possible.

 

[itnetpro]

I suspect the sprinkler system you refer to, may likely be required for fire suppression purposes, not for irrigation sprinklers.

Other than the quote from Valveman's post #5, I so far do not see where you posted that statement regarding a 300 gallon tank for the sprinkler system.

Before reading the well driller's report, I was somewhat confused over your initial post as I couldn't find any online reference to 'geiss' with regard to a water well. After viewing the report, I see the word 'Gneiss' was used.

The report specifies a 10" diameter bore hose in which a 6" diameter steel casing was inserted and sealed with Bentonite from 0 to 60' depth. Below 60', the bore hole diameter was reduced to 6", penetrating directly through the Gneiss rock, so no casing was installed from 60 - 400'.


Your well maybe capable of storing a greater volume of water than you may currently suspect. Water passing within the crevices and fissures through the surrounding rock that is supplying your well, will typically be under high pressure, so once the water enters the well bore, the pressure will be released, which often results in the water within the bore hole rising significantly above the level where water is actually entering the well.


What purpose do you expect to need a continuous 10 GPM flow rate? In s there a pool to fill or a high flow rate fixture such as a multi-head shower? People often assume they require significantly higher flow than what is required in actual practice.

If your well is supplying one single family residence, most water use will be 5 GPM or less, and usually for a much shorter time period than 30-minutes continuous.

To supply a constant 60 psi to fixtures at 10 GPM, will require a pump capable of supplying 12+ gpm, with a minimum of 543 feet of head (375' + 168' (=73 psi)) The pump would then supply the house through a CSV which is calibrated to supply 60 psi downstream. For the CSV to supply 60 psi constant, will typically require a pressure switch setting of 50/70 psi, so the additional 3 psi above 70, will ensure 70 psi will be reliably achieved to shut off the pump,even while the water within the well is pulled down to the minimum useable level possible.

Yes, fire suppression.

sorry typo, Gneiss

5 jet oversized shower to start. Add in the possibility of two other showers potentially running simultaneously. 2.5 x 3 = 7.5 + 1.8 x 4 = 7.2 === over 14GPM. However, more realistically, most days, 2-3 showers = 5-7.5.

understood, thanks!

John

 

[Valveman]

If you are going to use a cistern for anything, it is best to use it for everything. One pump in the cistern with a Cycle Stop Valve can supply 60 PSI constant at high flow for sprinklers or low flow to a single shower without cycling the pump to death. With everything coming out of one cistern, the water in the cistern gets replenished more often, keeping the stored water fresh.

 

[itnetpro]

If you are going to use a cistern for anything, it is best to use it for everything. One pump in the cistern with a Cycle Stop Valve can supply 60 PSI constant at high flow for sprinklers or low flow to a single shower without cycling the pump to death. With everything coming out of one cistern, the water in the cistern gets replenished more often, keeping the stored water fresh.

I wish that was an option. It’s a planned community and a big builder. The fire sprinkler contractor and well contractor won’t integrate. Builder provides no flexibility and this far into the build, I would loose a substantial deposit if we pulled out.

So we are stuck…

John

 

[Sassy87]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but I'm needing some help! We have a 1200 gallon cistern with a submersible pump 1hp, leads into a 20 gallon pressure tank with pressure switch ( down at the cistern) then into a filter then run about 50 feet to our trailer.
We built a new house and we had the plumbers install a second bigger pressure tank(50 gallon I believe, red tag on it said pre charged to 25 psi) in the basement of the new house. This tank has no pressure switch. Also about the same distance to the cistern (we did this to eventually do away with the smaller pressure tank altogether outside To avoid freezing and having to fix crap in winter) IYKYK
When we added the line(1 inch I believe into the new house) we dug down by the cistern and teed off from the existing pipe running to our trailer which was (3/4) inch I believe.
We are still getting water in the trailer but none in the new house. My husband at one point heard water start trickling in the new pressure tank and he released a little air pressure and it came running in but then stopped.
Our things to try is making sure the line didn't get clogged, cutting the trailer off from the line to see if that eliminates pressure equalization problems, and installing a control valve for the new pressure tank.
I have to say this is A LOT to try and understand and figure out. Of course the plumbers haven't even seen a cistern but he said we shouldn't be having problems with 2 pressure tanks.
We have inspection Thursday and then we can move in if we can get water running to the place. Trailer is already sold and everything will be disconnected after we move in a couple days.
If there's something we are missing or you can suggest options please please feel free to educate me, so I can pass it along to the hubby. We had a well company come out and try to find us water and instead got an 11,000$ bill for nothing. So needless to say after tonight my husband was about at the end of his rope with this whole water situation. What should be simple is turning out not to be so simple haha thanks to anyone who actually reads this and can help.