Need Some Help Diagnosing this Situation with pressure and operation of well

[Cruisinforgold]

I have a home with a well installed in 1997 in a new home from the builder selected well company. Some details below.

On Aug 23 there was no pressure/flow available in the house when I awoke at 530am. I shutdown the well pump circuit breakers and left for work. I got home and checked the pressure switch first and could see one of the contacts pads on the pressure switch had mechanically broken and was lodged.

I drained the pressure tee, put in a new 40/60 pressure switch, replaced pressure gauge at the tee and had to increase the tank pressure at the top of the Wellxtrol to 38psi.. Turned the house and irrigation back on and everything seemed ok till Sept 15. Water pressure started acting strange and sometimes dropped to zero psi. Began troubleshooting and am currently suspecting the pump is about to drop-out but need some help understanding what I'm seeing and what pump might be needed to replace (i.e. since I don't know what's down the well and what depth was installed originally).

First I put my Fluke 88V on AC voltage and monitored pressure and voltage during demand and shutoffs. The two hot lines on the pressure switch were 120VAC to common and 240VAC line to line after the switch. During "normal" cycles I can see the 240VAC across pressure switch just below 40psi and the switch cuts off at 58-60 psi as well as the voltage to the pump. During an "abnormal" run I can see the pressure drop to 0 psi and the pressure switch is still engaged demanding 240VAC to the pump but no pressure rise visible for up to 30-40 seconds. The pressure will start to rise after that period and land anywhere between 50 and 60 psi. The pressure switch disengages and the 240VAC is gone.

Abnormal situations seem to occur when irrigation turns on and there's a large instanteous demand or the bathroom tub is turned on. The zero psi will also occur sometimes during longer water demands like 1+ continuous minutes. When this ocurrs I can always see the 240VAC is activated to the pump but nothing is happening on the pressure gauge for the 30-40 seconds.

I verified at the well casing that when the pump is operating I'm seeing 16 running amps on the two "hot" lines. There is also a 26 amp in-rush at pump startup when using MAX hold on the multimeter. During "normal" operations the pump runs about 1 minute to move from 40 to 60 psi.

I went back and drained the Wellxtrol 220 to verify the precharge was at 38 psi. It remained precisely at 38 psi. I notice no residual water in the pressure tank. I drained into a bucket and measure approximately 2.5 gallons (which seems low to me).


Well and home setup info:
Wellxtrol 220 Pressure Tank
40/60 Pressure Switch
Home Supply and Lawn Irrigation runs off the pressure tee with ball valves
Well casing is 75 foot from house and approx 10 foot down from basement level to casing
Don't know submersible pump mfg, or any performance details
Pump electrical is a 3 wire 240VAC with two hot lines and a ground from pressure switch to well casing pipe/no control box
Two 15Amp breakers at the electrical box feed the Pressure Switch (thru a manual light switch close to the pressure tank)
Wire Colors to/down the casing are Red, Black and Green
There is a horizontal check valve in the basement (installed by well company at build)

Well Report records the following info (at time of build 1997):
Total Depth: 315ft
Depth to Bedrock: 64 ft
Casing Depth: 70 ft
Tested Yield: 60gpm
Static Water Level 30 ft

Measurements today with bottle/weight and straight weight:
Static Water Level 58 ft
Well Depth: > 400 ft (length of string/line maxed out)


I know pump is nearing end of life and would like to replace it now regardless of other symptom resolution. We are currently in a drought situation in New Hampshire and that's likely evidenced by the static water level difference from the original drilling. I'm unsure the depth the pump was originally placed.

The 16amp reading is throwing me off when I look at Franklin tables for a pump in the 1.5 to 2.0hp class like I see most people getting in my situation.

My nephew works for a well company and is able to get the pitless adapter/puller and equipment to pull up the pipe, pump and electrical. I just need to decide what pump to get that will be a 3 wire 240VAC (2 hots and ground) without a control box. And get this ordered ASAP before the current pump fails.

Any help would be appreciated or guidance for further troubleshooting.

 

[Valveman]

Everything happened just like the pump and tank manufacturers planned. However, for some reason you got about 4 times more life out of that pump than they want you to have. The average life of all pumps is planned to be about 7 years. Yours lasted long enough to mess up their average. Lol! You can bet the pumps they make today won't last that long. There are things on the market like the Cycle Stop Valve that makes pumps last longer, so now they just don't make pumps as good anymore.

15 amp breaker means it is a 1/2HP pump that should only draw about 5 amps. I don't know how it is running at all pulling 16 amps, but it won't run long. The overload in the motor is tripping, which is why it is going to zero pressure and still has 230V. These overloads will just cool down in 30 seconds or a minute and the pump just magically comes back on. They only reset a few times, and soon it just won't start anymore.

The pressure switch melting down is one of the first signs the pump is cycling on/off too much. Cycling is what destroys nearly all pumps. They only build so many cycles into a pump, and once you use those up, you need a new pump as planned. The check valve above ground was causing water hammer problems you may not have even been aware of. The only check valve you want is the one on the pump itself. If you had a Cycle Stop Valve in the place where that second check valve is, the pump would still be running and you would have gotten many more years of life out of everything. That is why most pump installers do not like Cycle Stop Valves.

It is probably a 10 GPM, 1/2HP. Franklin makes a good motor, but I don't like their pumps. More planned obsolescence built in than others like Grundfos and Goulds. But any of them will last longer when controlled by a Cycle Stop Valve. Oh and BTW, a side effect of the CSV is strong constant pressure in the showers.

How a Pressure Tank Works and why you need a Cycle Stop Valve

Animation of how a pressure tank and Cycle Stop Valve works.

vimeo.com

 

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[Reach4]

drained the Wellxtrol 220 to verify the precharge was at 38 psi. It remained precisely at 38 psi. I notice no residual water in the pressure tank. I drained into a bucket and measure approximately 2.5 gallons (which seems low to me).

Do you maybe mean the WX-202 20 gallon tank, 15 inch diameter and 32 inches high? The 2.5 gallons would be about right if the pressure in the tank was around 50 psi before you started draining.

I presume you have a pitless adapter. Is your well casing PVC 4.5 inch OD and 4 inch ID? Or is it maybe steel? With 4 inch steel, consider, if you replace the pump, to use a Grundfos "3 inch" SQ pump.

If doing any work, consider reading the past discussions of how it is not good to have a check valve up by your pressure tank.

My 3/4 HP pump is powered thru a 2-pole 15 amp breaker, via 14 AWG wires, and has not blown the breaker. I wonder if your current-measuring clamp-around current probe is giving you good numbers.

 

[Cruisinforgold]

Do you maybe mean the WX-202 20 gallon tank, 15 inch diameter and 32 inches high? The 2.5 gallons would be about right if the pressure in the tank was around 50 psi before you started draining.

I presume you have a pitless adapter. Is your well casing PVC 4.5 inch OD and 4 inch ID? Or is it maybe steel? With 4 inch steel, consider, if you replace the pump, to use a Grundfos "3 inch" SQ pump.

If doing any work, consider reading the past discussions of how it is not good to have a check valve up by your pressure tank.

My 3/4 HP pump is powered thru a 2-pole 15 amp breaker, via 14 AWG wires, and has not blown the breaker. I wonder if your current-measuring clamp-around current probe is giving you good numbers.

Yes that's the Pressure Tank and pressure was in the 40/60 range.

There is a pitless adapter in the casing. Casing size is 6in ID cast iron.

I was just running a Grundfos sizing app on their website and they were calling out the SQ03-105 (96510210) as the best for my application with max energy savings during a 10 year operational period. Just trying to make sure my sizing assumptions aren't over vs under-sizing.

I set for 10 GPM to service for the home with lawn irrigation system running simultaneously. Don't really know what Head assumptions I should be using but i plugged in 375ft. My well is over 315 ft (measured) so with pump position in the 225-250 ft. +75ft to the basement that leaves 300 to 325 ft and 25-50 for friction losses. I need to verify my wire gauge to the pump next.

I'm measuring the Amps at the well casing using a Fluke 88V and the I410 AC/DC current clamp. I placed the I410 current clamp on the Red cable in 1-run and the Black cable on the 2nd-run during separate demand runs. I did try moving clamp around a bit and the readings were very consistent.

And I had read the other posts on not have a Check Valve in the basement (or much past the submersible. I am planning to pull this out of the line and get a CSV like Valveman suggested. Not sure how to factor this CSV into the required flow rate/hp requirements when house and irrigation are maximizing demand on the well/pump/pressure tank.

Any assist appreciated on the above info

 

[Reach4]

I was just running a Grundfos sizing app on their website and they were calling out the SQ03-105 (96510210) as the best for my application with max energy savings during a 10 year operational period. Just trying to make sure my sizing assumptions aren't over vs under-sizing.

The numbers were different than I am used to for SQ pumps. I see that is a 50Hz AC motor. You might want to look for pumps sold in the US.

Whether you get a 3-inch or 4-inch pump, it would be a good idea to put a flow inducer sleeve on it. That makes the motor run cooler. It can also keep your uncased well from generating turbulence that erodes the bore wall. I have suggestions for what to make the flow inducer out of.

With a 6 inch casing (steel), a 4 inch pump with flow inducer will fit no problem.

If you used an SQ pump, I think it would be the 10SQ10-290 or 10SQ15-330, or maybe even 10SQ07-240.

To get the TDH, for 60 psi, add 140 ft to the depth to the lowest water level. You don't need the pump to be able to pump 10 gpm from where the pump is set. The effort of the pump is mainly just to pump from the water surface depth up to the pressure switch. Your static level is pretty high, and the well recovery is pretty good.

Rather than having a pump that would pump 10 gpm until the water drops to the pump, I would want a pump that would pump 10 gpm under normal conditions, and whose output would drop to as little as 1 GPM at 60 psi to my pressure gauge as the well was ready to run dry. What will happen if you run continuously is that the pump will stabilize at a gpm that matches the replenishment rate.

 

[Valveman]

It doesn't matter how deep the pump is set, it is still only lifting from the actual water level. The 75' to the basement doesn't add any lift, unless it is 75' up a hill. With a static at 30'-58', and a well that tested at 60 GPM, the pump is probably only lifting from 58' or so. The 60 PSI needed in the house is the same a 138' of head. So, total head for the pump is less than 200'.

The CSV factors in by letting you install a pump large enough to handle peak demands from a depth deeper than 58' and the CSV makes it work like a smaller pump when using only one shower/sprinkler and the water level stays high.

A 10SQ05-160 would pump a max of 6 GPM from as deep as 60'.

A 10SQ07-240 is a 3/4HP that would still be pumping if the water level pulls down to 200' or so and deliver as much as 12 GPM.

The CSV would make either pump work fine down to as little as 1 GPM, but only the bigger pump can pump if the water level get deeper than 90'.

 

[Cruisinforgold]

Video of Red Wire with Fluke I410 Current Clamp

Here's a video run with demand at the wellhead casing with Fluke 88V and I410 Current Clamp on the Red Wire
And the Red, Black, Green wires running down the casing are Submersible Pump Cables TYPE 1W 12 AWG 600V Centriline

Looks to me that 10SQ07-240 is pretty ideal for my application. I've looked at a lot of pumping issue reviews and have seen the Grundfos pumps highly regarded in most reviews.

I'll talk to my nephew that has access to the pump pulling equipment, pitless T-adapter. I'll also ask is he has a o-ring for the pitless to replace once it is pulled.

I'll look to get the CSV as well. Sound like a plan.

 

[Fitter30]

Since the problem when the irrigation turned on losing pressure just started. Would when the pump is raised put a gauge just on the riser dead head the pump the riser could have a crack in it or if its galvanized rusted through. If I would pull the pump it would be changed regardless. 28 years old and pump starter with the correct one.

 

[FredG]

Since it’s a diy, do yourself a favor and use a 10s07-12 4” pump mated to a Franklin motor. It will last 2-3x as long, and be cheaper initially. 10k rpm pumps will not last nearly as long as a 3450 rpm pump.

 

[Cruisinforgold]

Finished the removal and install of the 10SQ07-240 yesterday. Pulled up a 1/2hp. Franklin motor paired with Grundfos pump on 200ft of poly pipe.

Probably never see a 27-year life even on the newer pump with CSV.

And some electricity savings after running 16A and now 6.4A.

 

[Fitter30]

Finished the removal and install of the 10SQ07-240 yesterday. Pulled up a 1/2hp. Franklin motor paired with Grundfos pump on 200ft of poly pipe.

Probably never see a 27-year life even on the newer pump with CSV.

And some electricity savings after running 16A and now 6.4A.

When a pump is running at dead head ( shut off) amps lower. Its not doing much work.