Need help collecting from spring and pumping to house

[Reginabeana]

I'm attaching a drawing which shows our current design from both an aerial view (for horizontal distances) as well as a cross sectional view (for elevation).

For an unknown reason, this design is not pumping water to our house spigot unless the barn spigot is also turned on.

Is our shallow well jet pump not powerful enough? It's a 1HP Wayne shallow well jet pump with a foot valve at the end.

Does the pump which precedes the pressure tank determine the strength of the water pressure when it leaves the pressure tank?

Noteworthy: there are check valves immediately before and after pressure tank.

 

[Valveman]

I can't see the attachment? I also cannot find a max pressure spec for that pump. Says only that it works with a 30/50 switch. Elevation will cause 1 PSI loss for every 2.31' going up. Friction loss is a function of volume over distance, and only matters in sizing the pipe. The foot valve is the only check valve needed. Need a reading from the pressure gauge while simulating use and the problem. "Not pumping water to the house" isn't telling me anything. New system? Worked until now?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reginabeana]

I can't see the attachment? I also cannot find a max pressure spec for that pump. Says only that it works with a 30/50 switch. Elevation will cause 1 PSI loss for every 2.31' going up. Friction loss is a function of volume over distance, and only matters in sizing the pipe. The foot valve is the only check valve needed. Need a reading from the pressure gauge while simulating use and the problem. "Not pumping water to the house" isn't telling me anything. New system? Worked until now?

Sorry. I will try to attach file again. The photo shows all the relevant distances.

After our pressure tank, we have two lines. One goes to the barn, and is equal elevation as the pressure tank and approximately 100 feet away from it. The second line goes to our house, and is approximately 60 feet above the elevation of the pressure tank, and 100 feet away horizontally. This is the line where we are not receiving water. Whereas the barn has water and it has great pressure also.

When we have the barn and the house spigots open, water flows to both. But when only the house is open, the jet pump cycles on and off again rapidly and the pressure tank never refills itself.

It is partially a new system. We changed the design leading up to the pressure tank. We used to gravity collect water from our spring to a large tank, and used a deep well pump from there to our pressure tank. With that design, water flows well, the problem was that our tank floated out of the ground several times, prompting the change we made.

We replaced the large tank with a shallow well jet pump directly into the spring and feeding into the same pressure tank as before.

 

[Reginabeana]

I can't see the attachment? I also cannot find a max pressure spec for that pump. Says only that it works with a 30/50 switch. Elevation will cause 1 PSI loss for every 2.31' going up. Friction loss is a function of volume over distance, and only matters in sizing the pipe. The foot valve is the only check valve needed. Need a reading from the pressure gauge while simulating use and the problem. "Not pumping water to the house" isn't telling me anything. New system? Worked until now?

Diagram drawing hopefully this image link will work.

 

[Reach4]

I can see the PDF. The pressure switch needs to be at the pressure tank. You did not indicate where the pressure switch is.

The foot valve is the only check valve needed.

And that extra check valve, which not shown in your attached PDF, is the cause of your symptom.

 

[Storm rider]

The 85 foot rise to the house is costing you 36 psi. You need to set the pressure switch higher than 30/50

 

[Valveman]

That Wayne pump is shutting off at 50 PSI and on at 30 PSI. As was said you are losing 36 PSI from the pump to the house. Just the elevation difference keeps the pump from coming on when using water only at the house. Pressure only drops to 36 PSI with the pipes full of water and won't drop to 3o and turn on the pump until water is used from the barn at a lower elevation. To make up for the 36 PSI you need a 66/86 pressure switch setting to have 30 to 50 at the house. That pump will not work. Most likely you will need a multi-stage booster or submersible to work at that pressure. And yes the pressure tank needs to stay close to the pressure switch. The cycling on and off causes low pressure and a lot of other problems, but that can be fixed by just adding a Cycle Stop Valve.

 

[Reginabeana]

I can see the PDF. The pressure switch needs to be at the pressure tank. You did not indicate where the pressure switch is.

And that extra check valve, which not shown in your attached PDF, is the cause of your symptom.

The pressure switch is currently located at the shallow well jet pump. Previously, with the tank setup, it was at the pressure tank. The electrician switched it with this new setup.

The check valve between the pressure tank and the jet pump should be removed then?

 

[Reginabeana]

That

That Wayne pump is shutting off at 50 PSI and on at 30 PSI. As was said you are losing 36 PSI from the pump to the house. Just the elevation difference keeps the pump from coming on when using water only at the house. Pressure only drops to 36 PSI with the pipes full of water and won't drop to 3o and turn on the pump until water is used from the barn at a lower elevation. To make up for the 36 PSI you need a 66/86 pressure switch setting to have 30 to 50 at the house. That pump will not work. Most likely you will need a multi-stage booster or submersible to work at that pressure. And yes the pressure tank needs to stay close to the pressure switch. The cycling on and off causes low pressure and a lot of other problems, but that can be fixed by just adding a Cycle Stop Valve.

View attachment 103379

That would explain why it worked before with the cistern and deep well pump, bc the pump was stronger? It had enough psi to push the water uphill?

If we add a booster pump, would it go in-between the shallow well jet pump and the pressure tank? Or between the pressure tank and the house spigot?

Do they make shallow well pumps that are strong enough for this application?

I will also look into cycle stop valve.

 

[Fitter30]

What type of pipe and size for loss from the pipe . count up the ells, and valves.

 

[Valveman]

That


That would explain why it worked before with the cistern and deep well pump, bc the pump was stronger? It had enough psi to push the water uphill?

If we add a booster pump, would it go in-between the shallow well jet pump and the pressure tank? Or between the pressure tank and the house spigot?

Do they make shallow well pumps that are strong enough for this application?

I will also look into cycle stop valve.

You don't need an additional pump. You need to replace the pump you have. For something that will work with a 70/90 pressure switch you will need a multi-stage pump like a Goulds 10GB10 seen here. https://www.lockewell.com/pdf/goulds/B5-33GB.pdf

 

[Fitter30]

You don't need an additional pump. You need to replace the pump you have. For something that will work with a 70/90 pressure switch you will need a multi-stage pump like a Goulds 10GB10 seen here. https://www.lockewell.com/pdf/goulds/B5-33GB.pdf

Look at the npsh net positive suction head. Pump isn't made to suck.

 

[Reach4]

From the Goulds 10GB10 PDF, "Maximum lift with foot valve: 10 ft., check NPSH curve."

 

[Reach4]

For an unknown reason, this design is not pumping water to our house spigot unless the barn spigot is also turned on.

Is our shallow well jet pump not powerful enough? It's a 1HP Wayne shallow well jet pump with a foot valve at the end.

Does the pump which precedes the pressure tank determine the strength of the water pressure when it leaves the pressure tank?

Noteworthy: there are check valves immediately before and after pressure tank.

This symptom, where you don't turn on the pump and get pressure to the house, unless you open the barn spigot, is due to the check valve between the house and the pressure switch. Removing or gutting that pressure switch will remove that symptom, I think.

While you are at it, it would be best to ALSO remove/gut the check valve before pressure tank.

A more powerful pump would be addressed at raising the pressure at the house, but it will not help This symptom.

 

[Valveman]

I agree a foot valve should be the only check valve in the system. But with 85' of static head (36 PSI) opening a tap up at the house will only drop the pressure at the pump to 36 PSI. It won't drop to 30 to start the pump unless a tap lower in elevation, like at the barn is opened no matter where the check valves are located. Can't use a 40/60 pressure switch because that pump will not build 60 PSI. With a stronger pump and a pressure switch setting higher than 40/60 you won't have that problem.

I also don't like multi-stage pumps for suction lift, but they will work to 10" like it says. My biggest concern is the inlet to the pump is on top, which makes it hard to keep from having a high spot in the suction line to trap air. I have installed those pumps in a vertical position with the outlet at the top to solve that problem. The high spot in the suction can cause an air lock on occasion, but is usually not much of a problem. I prefer a submersible laying in a creek or cistern to a multi-stage booster when possible.

 

[Reach4]

I agree a foot valve should be the only check valve in the system. But with 85' of static head (36 PSI) opening a tap up at the house will only drop the pressure at the pump to 36 PSI.

I interpret the pressure tank and pressure switch to be 60 ft below the house. So without the check valve, the pump should turn on. It's close.

If OP opens the barn spigot, I infer that some useful water makes it to the house. So while a higher pressure pump would be recommended, removing/gutting that last check valve will help immediately. Also take out the one just before the pressure tank+switch, and you gain 1 or 2 psi in addition to the other benefits.

 

[Reginabeana]

I'm happy to report back that, with the information I gained here, we moved the pressure switch from the jet pump to the pressure tank and are now fully operational.

I'm sure the other details would impact pressure and water volume in positive ways, but we're currently operating at the same capacity we did with our tank design.

THANK YOU SO MUCH. you've been extremely helpful to a young family of beginner homesteaders.

 

[Reginabeana]

This symptom, where you don't turn on the pump and get pressure to the house, unless you open the barn spigot, is due to the check valve between the house and the pressure switch. Removing or gutting that pressure switch will remove that symptom, I think.

While you are at it, it would be best to ALSO remove/gut the check valve before pressure tank.

A more powerful pump would be addressed at raising the pressure at the house, but it will not help This symptom.

On this note, I will also plan to remove the check valve between pump and pressure tank.

 

[Fitter30]

Post 10 need that info