Navien NCB190/060h - new install questions

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Kdkull

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I am installing a Navien NCB190/060h combi boiler and have several questions:
- Can expansion tank (Extol EX30) be located below or should be above boiler.
- Is a secondary circulation pump necessary or is the internal boiler pump sufficient
- what is the auto feeding water connection and motorized feeding valve. Does this take the place of reducing valve for the water supply. Book shows only backflow preventer on the make up water.
 

Fitter30

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Ex tank doesn't care where its located just piped correctly. Navien makes a primary loop fitting for that boiler to pipe the system with a primary secondary loop configuration.
 

Kdkull

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Ex tank doesn't care where its located just piped correctly. Navien makes a primary loop fitting for that boiler to pipe the system with a primary secondary loop configuration.
Thanks Fitter, I did buy a Manifold Kit for the 190/060H (part 30026576a) looks a little different from the link you sent but was the one in the manual. That's what i was thinking the internal pump might be used for (i guess it's called the primary loop)... it's been 45 years since I tackled putting in a big box Weil-Mclain which only had one BG pump. What would be your recommendation for a secondary pump? I have about 800 sq ft to heat in NE Illinois with about 600 ft of PEX.
 

John Gayewski

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Thanks Fitter, I did buy a Manifold Kit for the 190/060H (part 30026576a) looks a little different from the link you sent but was the one in the manual. That's what i was thinking the internal pump might be used for (i guess it's called the primary loop)... it's been 45 years since I tackled putting in a big box Weil-Mclain which only had one BG pump. What would be your recommendation for a secondary pump? I have about 800 sq ft to heat in NE Illinois with about 600 ft of PEX.
Is your system a primary secondary secondary system? With one loop delivering hot water to the other (secondary) loops?
 

Kdkull

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Is your system a primary secondary secondary system? With one loop delivering hot water to the other (secondary) loops?
Thanks John, It is a new install and I was just going to connect up the supply and return lines to the boiler because it has a built in boiler pump but then I bought the Navien primary manifold for the hydronic heat which was pricey but included valves and seemed to may make install easier however the manifold just flows through. I guess this is what is called a primary manifold.
From the supply side of the primary manifold I bought I was just going to connect to the supply 'manifold' for the PEX system which consists of floor heating 3 rooms. Afterward I was going to connect the return side of PEX to the return side of the manifold I bought. However now I am thinking I will need to add a secondary pump to the system on the supply side after the expansion tank. Now I'm wondering if
 

Kdkull

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Is your system a primary secondary secondary system? With one loop delivering hot water to the other (secondary) loops?
Thanks John, It is a new install and I was just going to connect up the supply and return lines to the boiler because it has a built in boiler pump but then I bought the Navien primary manifold for the hydronic heat which was pricey but included valves and seemed to may make install easier however the manifold just flows through. I guess this is what is called a primary manifold.
From the supply side of the primary manifold I bought I was just going to connect to the supply 'manifold' for the PEX system which consists of floor heating 3 rooms. Afterward I was going to connect the return side of PEX to the return side of the manifold I bought. However now I am thinking I will need to add a secondary pump to the system on the supply side after the expansion tank. Now I'm wondering if I need to create a secondary loop which seems to have a 'bridge' between supply and return and put a secondary pump on the supply side or just put in a secondary pump after the expansion tank or? I probably made this system more complicated by getting the navien manifold?
 

Fitter30

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If u looked at post 3 the navien manual has a piping diagram of the secondary loop with pump ex tank and air elimination. Yes you will need all three and possibly a controller for hot water priority ( have to look into the install manual).
 

Kdkull

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How many loops, lengths and PEX size?
Hi Fitter - I have 3 rooms I'm heating with 1/2 inch PEX. 250ft/175ft/130ft plus I plan to tie in a 4ft piece of aluminum fin. The pex rooms are tied into 1" copper manifold which the supply side has 3 manual valves to adjust flow. Not sure if the Navien primary manifold was really needed but now that I have it should probably use it especially since it has the nice isolation and drain valves.
 

Fitter30

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3/4" copper Slant fin doesn't even show btu output till 150° water. Well design floor radiate runs 5-10° over thermostat set point. Running two separate water temps is possible but for 2020 btu's its not going to be inexpensive. The three loops are you planning for one zone or more?
 

Kdkull

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3/4" copper Slant fin doesn't even show btu output till 150° water. Well design floor radiate runs 5-10° over thermostat set point. Running two separate water temps is possible but for 2020 btu's its not going to be inexpensive. The three loops are you planning for one zone or more?
Yes the 3 loop will be one zone. I don't recall what the old unit was running but hotter than 150. I'm thinking it was close to 160-180. If the fin radiant piece won't work on this system then i will just skip that and put a small wall heater in there. For the PEX secondary pump what would be a good recommendation. Manual shows the boiler can manage up to 3 zones internally so a separate control panel doesn't seem to be needed. For the pump, can this just be put on the supply side after the expansion and check valve pushing it through the supply manifold with the 3 loops. Or I read on the internet if a secondary loop is needed that would consist of a Tee on both supply and return lines coming off the 3 loop manifolds and then bridge the tee's together together about 6 inches apart then the secondary pump would go below the supply side tee. the supply side of the tee would be fed from the supply side of the primary manifold and the return side of the bridged tees would go back to the return side of the primary manifold. Thoughts on this? Btw i appreciate all your help on this.
 

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Total length of the loops 555' x 35 btu per ft 19,425 btu's boiler is oversized. Normally need 1 gpm per 10k btu's of boiler and each loop 20° drop in temp between in and out. What are your floor coverings?
 

Kdkull

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Total length of the loops 555' x 35 btu per ft 19,425 btu's boiler is oversized. Normally need 1 gpm per 10k btu's of boiler and each loop 20° drop in temp between in and out. What are your floor coverings?
floor is poured concrete with most covered with 1/4" ceramic tile. I was thinking the boiler was still too big compared to my old one but believe it's the smallest Navien combi. A mechanical heating guy came over one day and then recommended this is the one he would put in.
 

Kdkull

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Turn down ratio of burner 11 to 1 should be ok
Once again thanks Fitter, the help you've provided is outstanding. Hoping to hang boiler and start the plumb this weekend. More questions.. 1) for the secondary pump - can this go anywhere after the expansion tank or will I need to make the secondary loop I described earlier and put it on the supply side. 2) I have slightly hard water 15grains/gal, book says not over 12 but i'm guessing slightly over shouldn't be a problem. so I got the Navien peak flow S filter, thinking this will help. I'm thinking of adding the Naviclean to the return side but not sure. Additionally I am planning to fill the boiler from fresh clean water with about 20% glycol. Thoughts? 3) What are your thoughts on sweat vs sharkbite. I will have to be sweating some things anyhow so maybe just sweat the whole thing? 4) recommendation on thermostat. I have 2 wires and had been using a round Honeywell CT87K4446. Will this suffice or will I need to run a new wire.
 

Fitter30

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Can only use boiler gylcol minimum concentration 30% for the inhibitors. Use less the glycol can turn to a acid. Boiler glycol offers both freeze and slush protection use freeze. Honeywell stat will work
 

Kdkull

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Can only use boiler gylcol minimum concentration 30% for the inhibitors. Use less the glycol can turn to a acid. Boiler glycol offers both freeze and slush protection use freeze. Honeywell stat will work
The manual mentioned a specialty formulated glycol only and not to exceed 30%. I am wondering if i really need anything at all. I live in NE Illinois? Also what is your recommendation on placement of secondary pump.
 

Kdkull

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What is recommended PVC 2" vent pipe for intake and exhaust above roof. NE illinois typical roof accumulation 6-15"
 

Fitter30

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The manual mentioned a specialty formulated glycol only and not to exceed 30%. I am wondering if i really need anything at all. I live in NE Illinois? Also what is your recommendation on placement of secondary pump.
Call any boiler glycol manufacturer ask them about their inhibitors. Going from f
good to bad with less than 30%. Post ur results.
 

Kdkull

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Call any boiler glycol manufacturer ask them about their inhibitors. Going from f
good to bad with less than 30%. Post ur results.
I drained the system after removing the old boiler and got about 5 gallons. I'm thinking 1.75 gallons of the proper boiler glycol would give 35%. The old stuff ran about 3yrs and had a bit of black gunk (est < 1/2 gal) which settled to the bottom of the pail. I'm guessing this is the old glycol? Still trying to understand if i need to create a secondary loop and have the secondary pump in that loop or just put it somewhere on the supply side after the expansion tank.
 
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