I've seen salt dosage charts and still do not know how many #'s to enter on my clack. Please help

[axxell]

48k 1.5 cuft system with clack ws1 on municipal water with 34 gpg (verified with hach 5b). The installer has always set it to 40k capacity and using 13lbs of salt. The first 3 years, the system was great, we would go a week between regens. Lately, it's been regenning every 5 days or so, so I'm looking whether I should adjust the settings. It's two of us, we average 150 gallons per day. This last regen, went 800 gallons before water hardness breakthrough despite having around 300 gallon capacity remaining. I've been checking with the Hach 5b. Should I increase the hardness setting? I am not aware of any manganese or iron in the water. What system capacity and salt dosage would you use? Also, should the Hach 5b sample be blue as soon as reagent is added? Mine is purple, and takes 1 drop to turn blue. This is immediately after a regen. Thanks

 

[Reach4]

Should I increase the hardness setting?

Yes. Or reduce capacity. The count-down display starts at C/H-R, where C is capacity, R is reserve in gallons, and H is hardness.

The actual change is at least partly because the resin handling your city water deteriorates. Change it out for new 10% cross-linked resin when it gets worse. Swapping resin also calls for new gravel, because it is not practical to reuse the gravel.

Another possibility, which I have not seen discussed, is the failure can be resin beads breaking apart and getting backwashed out-- so what happens if you just top-off the resin with another 1/2 cuft of 10% crosslinked resin?

Also, should the Hach 5b sample be blue as soon as reagent is added? Mine is purple, and takes 1 drop to turn blue.

I would still call that very soft at that point.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[axxell]

Yes. Or reduce capacity. The count-down display starts at C/H-R, where C is capacity, R is reserve in gallons, and H is hardness.

The actual change is at least partly because the resin handling your city water deteriorates. Change it out for new 10% cross-linked resin when it gets worse. Swapping resin also calls for new gravel, because it is not practical to reuse the gravel.

Another possibility, which I have not seen discussed, is the failure can be resin beads breaking apart and getting backwashed out-- so what happens if you just top-off the resin with another 1/2 cuft of 10% crosslinked resin?

I would still call that very soft at that point.

Thank you. Yeah, it ran 3 yrs with city chlorinated water so wondered how much resin life is left. I did add whole house filter last year, so it currently is chlorine free.

I've come across posts in here describing a restorative cycling of the resin. Running back to back regens. I'd like to try that. How many pounds of salt should I enter, and is it okay to use tap (unsoftened) water in the meantime? The unit goes into bypass during regen if I recall.

 

[Reach4]

Bypass is OK.

It is also possible that your hardness increased as they mixed less river water and more well water. Your Hach 5-B could check that.

I did add whole house filter last year, so it currently is chlorine free.

Big backwashing filter at least as big as the softener, containing catalytic carbon?

 

[axxell]

Bypass is OK.

It is also possible that your hardness increased as they mixed less river water and more well water. Your Hach 5-B could check that.


Big backwashing filter at least as big as the softener, containing catalytic carbon?

Yeah the supplier told us they have been changing wells lately due to maintenance. I'm in Phoenix area fwiw. I will double check with the Hach!

Yes, it's a big blue 20 inch carbon block. I think we were around 1ppm chlorine before, and the filtered water tests zero using a taylor pool test kit.

 

[Reach4]

I've come across posts in here describing a restorative cycling of the resin. Running back to back regens. I'd like to try that.

You could just use the same salt level. But if you want to make a strong regen use 15 pounds of salt per cuft, rather than your current 8.67 lbs/cuft you could add an extra 2.11 gallons of water via the brine tube at least an hour before your regen.

Incidentally, if your softener is outdoors, you should protect plastic stuff, such as softener valves, tanks, and PVC piping from UV.

 

[axxell]

You could just use the same salt level. But if you want to make a strong regen use 15 pounds of salt per cuft, rather than your current 8.67 lbs/cuft you could add an extra 2.11 gallons of water via the brine tube at least an hour before your regen.

Incidentally, if your softener is outdoors, you should protect plastic stuff, such as softener valves, tanks, and PVC piping from UV.

Thanks! My equipment is not outdoor thank goodness haha. I will add the extra 2.11 gallons. Do I need to wait time between regens, and should I manually bypass my system to prevent feed water from entering? I have a 3 way bypass in my loop. We would be using toilets most likely during the regens.

 

[Reach4]

No need to use the external bypass.

There is a method for treating media with a longer contact time. Start the high-dose regen. Wait until the brine dose gets to the drain line. Engage the external bypass, letting the bolus of salt sit with the resin for an hour or so. Start a new immediate regen, and open the external bypass. The second regen washes out the salt.

I am not sure that buys you much. It is a method used when treating for iron accumulation, and that itakes more soak time. City water iron precipitates out in the pipes on the way to your house. That is a lot of what they remove during "hydrant flushing".

To tell when the salt reaches the drain line, either test, or look for a big increase in TDS with a cheap TDS meter.

 

[axxell]

You could just use the same salt level. But if you want to make a strong regen use 15 pounds of salt per cuft, rather than your current 8.67 lbs/cuft you could add an extra 2.11 gallons of water via the brine tube at least an hour before your regen.

Incidentally, if your softener is outdoors, you should protect plastic stuff, such as softener valves, tanks, and PVC piping from UV.

Am I adding 2.11 before both regens, and wait an hour before both?

 

[Reach4]

That should certainly catch your resin up, but I can't say it will regenerate resin that needs replacement.

Note that some salt should be at least as high as the surface of the water to avoid stratification. Bannerman sometimes disagrees on that one.

Fun fact: did you notice that the water in your brine tube is higher than the water in the bulk of the brine tank?

 

[axxell]

That should certainly catch your resin up, but I can't say it will regenerate resin that needs replacement.

Note that some salt should be at least as high as the surface of the water to avoid stratification. Bannerman sometimes disagrees on that one.

Fun fact: did you notice that the water in your brine tube is higher than the water in the bulk of the brine tank?

I will look in brine tube later when starting the restore. Just to clarify, it is okay to use water in between regens, when I'm waiting to start second regen? We would be using toilets.

 

[Reach4]

Yes. Perfectly fine to use water during regens.

It would not be the ideal time to do a bath or shower, but certainly no bid deal for a bunch of toilet flushes.

 

[axxell]

Yes. Perfectly fine to use water during regens.

It would not be the ideal time to do a bath or shower, but certainly no bid deal for a bunch of toilet flushes.

Thank you very much

 

[Bannerman]

The installer has always set it to 40k capacity and using 13lbs of salt. The first 3 years, the system was great, we would go a week between regens.

13 lbs salt is insufficient to regenerate 40K grains capacity. As shown in the chart below, 10 lbs/ft3 (=15 lbs total for 1.5 ft3), is needed to regenerate 39,000 grains usable capacity in 1.5ft3 resin.

For the best balance of salt efficiency, usable capacity & soft water quality, the usual recommended capacity setting for a 1.5ft3 softener is 36,000 grains, as only 12 lbs salt will be needed to regenerate that amount of capacity. This will equal hardness reduction efficiency of 3,000 gr/lb. (36,000 gr / 12 lbs)

The 13 lbs salt that had been programmed, was sufficient to regenerate only about 37,700 grains capacity, but the 40K Capacity setting resulted in greater capacity becoming depleted, resulting in ~2,300 grains capacity remaining depleted after each regen cycle.

The total hardness removal capacity for 1.5ft3 resin is 48,000 grains.

When the softener was initially installed, the 40K capacity setting will have resulted in the 1st regeneration occurring when there was ~8,000 grains capacity remaining within the tank, with that remaining capacity assisting to reduce the amount of hardness leakage passing through the resin bed, even up to the moment that 40K was depleted and regeneration became initiated. Before the 2nd regen, there will have been only ~5,700 grains remaining capacity, then ~3,400 grains, then ~1,100 grains, then 0 grains, each time resulting in hardness leakage increasing.

Even while using the recommended Capacity and salt settings, increased salt efficiency will result in hardness leakage to gradually increase to a specific level in proportion to the salt amount, as shown near the bottom of each salt column below.

Recommend resetting the Capacity setting to 36K, and the salt amount to 12 lbs. Also recommend increasing the softener's Hardness setting 3 gpg higher than your test result. This will anticipate occasions when hardness may exceed the usual test reading, which often occurs when there are multiple water sources feeding into a municipal distribution system.

Define your current Reserve Setting. The softener's Reserve setting, should normally equal the average gallons of soft water consumption for 1-day.

Recommend restoring 100% of the resins capacity. To regenerate all 48K, will require a 1X regeneration with 30 lbs salt. As 10 gallons water within the brine tank would be needed to dissolve 30 lbs salt, instead of a 1X restorative regeneration, suggest performing 2 back-to-back regens as mentioned above, with minimal soft water use between each regen cycle.

Because a single media tank softener cannot supply soft water while regeneration is being performed, any water utilized in the home while each regen is actually underway, will remain unsoftened as flow to faucets will bypass the softener.

Daily softening load: 150 gallons X 37 gpg = 5,550 grains per day
36,000 / 5,550 =6.4 days - 1 day Reserve = 5-6 days estimated regeneration frequency.

 

[axxell]

13 lbs salt is insufficient to regenerate 40K grains capacity. As shown in the chart below, 10 lbs/ft3 (=15 lbs total for 1.5 ft3), is needed to regenerate 39,000 grains usable capacity in 1.5ft3 resin.

For the best balance of salt efficiency, usable capacity & soft water quality, the usual recommended capacity setting for a 1.5ft3 softener is 36,000 grains, as only 12 lbs salt will be needed to regenerate that amount of capacity. This will equal hardness reduction efficiency of 3,000 gr/lb. (36,000 gr / 12 lbs)

The 13 lbs salt that had been programmed, was sufficient to regenerate only about 37,700 grains capacity, but the 40K Capacity setting resulted in greater capacity becoming depleted, resulting in ~2,300 grains capacity remaining depleted after each regen cycle.

The total hardness removal capacity for 1.5ft3 resin is 48,000 grains.

When the softener was initially installed, the 40K capacity setting will have resulted in the 1st regeneration occurring when there was ~8,000 grains capacity remaining within the tank, with that remaining capacity assisting to reduce the amount of hardness leakage passing through the resin bed, even up to the moment that 40K was depleted and regeneration became initiated. Before the 2nd regen, there will have been only ~5,700 grains remaining capacity, then ~3,400 grains, then ~1,100 grains, then 0 grains, each time resulting in hardness leakage increasing.

Even while using the recommended Capacity and salt settings, increased salt efficiency will result in hardness leakage to gradually increase to a specific level in proportion to the salt amount, as shown near the bottom of each salt column below.

Recommend resetting the Capacity setting to 36K, and the salt amount to 12 lbs. Also recommend increasing the softener's Hardness setting 3 gpg higher than your test result. This will anticipate occasions when hardness may exceed the usual test reading, which often occurs when there are multiple water sources feeding into a municipal distribution system.

Define your current Reserve Setting. The softener's Reserve setting, should normally equal the average gallons of soft water consumption for 1-day.

Recommend restoring 100% of the resins capacity. To regenerate all 48K, will require a 1X regeneration with 30 lbs salt. As 10 gallons water within the brine tank would be needed to dissolve 30 lbs salt, instead of a 1X restorative regeneration, suggest performing 2 back-to-back regens as mentioned above, with minimal soft water use between each regen cycle.

Because a single media tank softener cannot supply soft water while regeneration is being performed, any water utilized in the home while each regen is actually underway, will remain unsoftened as flow to faucets will bypass the softener.

Daily softening load: 150 gallons X 37 gpg = 5,550 grains per day
36,000 / 5,550 =6.4 days - 1 day Reserve = 5-6 days estimated regeneration frequency.

Thanks Bannerman. I ran the back to back regen last night. I added around 2.5 gallons to the brine well prior to the first regen, let it sit for two hours. Then, manually regenned with 15lbs salt in it. Then, initiated a second regen before bed to run at 2am. I tested this morning and still cannot achieve 0 gpg hardness on the Hach 5b. I know it is capable of a zero reading since distilled water does give a 0 reading. I guess I can conclude my resin has degraded. I set it to 36k/12lbs/37 hardness none the less, so lets see how it does. Lately, hardness breakthrough has been happening before using remaining capacity.

You mentioned reserve setting. I'm not sure which setting this is? If you mean average, it's about 160 gpd of water use here.

 

[Bannerman]

You mentioned reserve setting. I'm not sure which setting this is?

Post a photo showing your Clack control valve. There are various WS1 versions, so to review how to program the appropriate settings, will require knowing which specific version you are using.

I added around 2.5 gallons to the brine well prior to the first regen, let it sit for two hours. Then, manually regenned with 15lbs salt in it.

Not certain what is meant by "manually regenned with 15lbs salt in it" as the brine tank should continue to contain a substantially greater quantity of dry salt, including above the liquid level.

Each gallon will dissolve 3 lbs salt, so an additional 2.5 gallons should have increased the brine strength from 13 lbs (the strength previously prepared within the tank), to 20.5 lbs.

When were the settings changed? If changed after the 2 restorative regens were performed as the order listed above, and if no additional water had been manually added to the brine tank before the 2nd regen, then the water that automatically entered at the end of the 1st regen, will have been sufficient to dissolve only 13lbs salt for the 2nd regen.

hardness breakthrough has been happening before using remaining capacity.

Of course. Using only 13 lbs salt to regenerate 40K grains capacity, will mean the there was actually much less remaining capacity than was indicated on the screen.

The controller utilizes the programmed settings, and water flow data provided by the flow meter, to calculate gallons remaining.

In programming the Capacity setting @ 40K, tells the computer that at least 40K grains capacity is being regenerated each cycle. With the Hardness setting at 34 gpg, then the computer will calculate there will be 1,176 gallons capacity (40,000 / 34) available (minus Reserve amount) when each regeneration cycle is concluded. Each gallon soft water that exits the softener will reduce the remaining capacity calculation by 1-gallon (34 gpg).

Because the 13 lb brine strength was insufficient to actually regen 40K capacity, the remaining gallons calculation as displayed was immediately incorrect. In addition, if the incoming water hardness is on occasion above 34 gpg, as can often occur for short periods when water use is high throughout the city, or during longer periods while distribution system maintenance is being performed, then water use during those periods will cause additional softener capacity to be consumed, which the softener controller will not know or calculate.

As a specific salt amount is programmed to prepare sufficient brine in advance of each subsequent regen cycle, it's important that the amount of capacity depleted each cycle, does not exceed the capacity to be regenerated by the brine being produced.

12 lbs salt is sufficient to regenerate 36K gr Capacity in 1.5ft3 resin.
Programming the hardness setting 3 gpg higher than the on-site test result (hardness at that specific moment = snapshot), will anticipate occasions when hardness may be greater than 34 gpg, and will also provide some compensation for the capacity what will become depleted during regeneration since hard water is utilized for each regeneration.

36,000 gr C / 37 gpg = 972 gallons - 160 gallons Reserve = an estimated remaining 812 gallons indicated directly following each regen cycle.

 

[axxell]

Post a photo showing your Clack control valve. There are various WS1 versions, so to review how to program the appropriate settings, will require knowing which specific version you are using.


Not certain what is meant by "manually regenned with 15lbs salt in it" as the brine tank should continue to contain a substantially greater quantity of dry salt, including above the liquid level.

Each gallon will dissolve 3 lbs salt, so an additional 2.5 gallons should have increased the brine strength from 13 lbs (the strength previously prepared within the tank), to 20.5 lbs.

When were the settings changed? If changed after the 2 restorative regens were performed as the order listed above, and if no additional water had been manually added to the brine tank before the 2nd regen, then the water that automatically entered at the end of the 1st regen, will have been sufficient to dissolve only 13lbs salt for the 2nd regen.


Of course. Using only 13 lbs salt to regenerate 40K grains capacity, will mean the there was actually much less remaining capacity than was indicated on the screen.

The controller utilizes the programmed settings, and water flow data provided by the flow meter, to calculate gallons remaining.

In programming the Capacity setting @ 40K, tells the computer that at least 40K grains capacity is being regenerated each cycle. With the Hardness setting at 34 gpg, then the computer will calculate there will be 1,176 gallons capacity (40,000 / 34) available (minus Reserve amount) when each regeneration cycle is concluded. Each gallon soft water that exits the softener will reduce the remaining capacity calculation by 1-gallon (34 gpg).

Because the 13 lb brine strength was insufficient to actually regen 40K capacity, the remaining gallons calculation as displayed was immediately incorrect. In addition, if the incoming water hardness is on occasion above 34 gpg, as can often occur for short periods when water use is high throughout the city, or during longer periods while distribution system maintenance is being performed, then water use during those periods will cause additional softener capacity to be consumed, which the softener controller will not know or calculate.

As a specific salt amount is programmed to prepare sufficient brine in advance of each subsequent regen cycle, it's important that the amount of capacity depleted each cycle, does not exceed the capacity to be regenerated by the brine being produced.

12 lbs salt is sufficient to regenerate 36K gr Capacity in 1.5ft3 resin.
Programming the hardness setting 3 gpg higher than the on-site test result (hardness at that specific moment = snapshot), will anticipate occasions when hardness may be greater than 34 gpg, and will also provide some compensation for the capacity what will become depleted during regeneration since hard water is utilized for each regeneration.

36,000 gr C / 37 gpg = 972 gallons - 160 gallons Reserve = an estimated remaining 812 gallons indicated directly following each regen cycle.

Sorry for the confusion. The steps I took yesterday are as follows: Left capacity at 40k but changed salt lbs in settings from 13 to 15lbs prior to doing 2x regens. At the same time, added 2.5 gallons to brine well (per other posts I've read was good idea, maybe not?). Wait two hours, then initiated manual regen. After that regen finished, I did not add more water, but initiated a second regen for 2am using same settings, 40k/15lbs salt and still 34 gpg.

It was this morning after both regens were finished that I changed it to 36k and 12lbs salt, and 37 gpg. Please advise if I need to do another double regen. Thanks

 

[axxell]

Post a photo showing your Clack control valve. There are various WS1 versions, so to review how to program the appropriate settings, will require knowing which specific version you are using.


Not certain what is meant by "manually regenned with 15lbs salt in it" as the brine tank should continue to contain a substantially greater quantity of dry salt, including above the liquid level.

Each gallon will dissolve 3 lbs salt, so an additional 2.5 gallons should have increased the brine strength from 13 lbs (the strength previously prepared within the tank), to 20.5 lbs.

When were the settings changed? If changed after the 2 restorative regens were performed as the order listed above, and if no additional water had been manually added to the brine tank before the 2nd regen, then the water that automatically entered at the end of the 1st regen, will have been sufficient to dissolve only 13lbs salt for the 2nd regen.


Of course. Using only 13 lbs salt to regenerate 40K grains capacity, will mean the there was actually much less remaining capacity than was indicated on the screen.

The controller utilizes the programmed settings, and water flow data provided by the flow meter, to calculate gallons remaining.

In programming the Capacity setting @ 40K, tells the computer that at least 40K grains capacity is being regenerated each cycle. With the Hardness setting at 34 gpg, then the computer will calculate there will be 1,176 gallons capacity (40,000 / 34) available (minus Reserve amount) when each regeneration cycle is concluded. Each gallon soft water that exits the softener will reduce the remaining capacity calculation by 1-gallon (34 gpg).

Because the 13 lb brine strength was insufficient to actually regen 40K capacity, the remaining gallons calculation as displayed was immediately incorrect. In addition, if the incoming water hardness is on occasion above 34 gpg, as can often occur for short periods when water use is high throughout the city, or during longer periods while distribution system maintenance is being performed, then water use during those periods will cause additional softener capacity to be consumed, which the softener controller will not know or calculate.

As a specific salt amount is programmed to prepare sufficient brine in advance of each subsequent regen cycle, it's important that the amount of capacity depleted each cycle, does not exceed the capacity to be regenerated by the brine being produced.

12 lbs salt is sufficient to regenerate 36K gr Capacity in 1.5ft3 resin.
Programming the hardness setting 3 gpg higher than the on-site test result (hardness at that specific moment = snapshot), will anticipate occasions when hardness may be greater than 34 gpg, and will also provide some compensation for the capacity what will become depleted during regeneration since hard water is utilized for each regeneration.

36,000 gr C / 37 gpg = 972 gallons - 160 gallons Reserve = an estimated remaining 812 gallons indicated directly following each regen cycle.

Here's a link to my valve

https://imgur.com/a/gc0WLma