Increasing water flow capacity at peak usage on a well

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ghooper18

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Hello all,

I've been googling and youtubing my heart out trying to find the correct solution to the minor issue I'm having.

I'm in Brighton, MI. 2 story home with basement.
I have a submersible well pump, 5" casing. 114ft deep and static water level 69ft below surface.
Well pressure tank is 62 gallon capacity, 40-60psi, located in basement.

Problem is: when running the washing machine, dishwasher, flushing toilets, essentially using a lot of water - the showers up stairs essentially have no flow. It is reduced to a dribble of water.
I don't suspect any restrictions in the system, as when no water is being used, the pressure and volume is fantastic throughout the house.

Is there any known fixes to this without drilling a new well or additional well?
My first line of thought is to add a second pressure tank of the same size to double capacity. This probably wont completely resolve the issue, but may reduce the loss of flow during "peak times", allowing the family to shower while a load of laundry is going or whatever.
Second line of thinking is some sort of cistern or storage tank that has some sort of pump that pressurizes the water to supply the house.
Although I don't know how to control when the well pump is pumping vs when the cistern/storage tank would pump.

My apologies if this has been answered previously to a thorough degree.

Thank you folks!
 

Valveman

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Yeah, very common questions. Adding an extra pressure tank will make the pressure worse, as the pump doesn't start until the tank(s) are empty. You still only get what the pump can supply as water comes from the pump, not the tank.

You have one of two problem. Either the pump is cycling on and off 40 to 60 over and over while all that water is being used, or the pressure is just going low like 30-40 and staying there. If the pressure is just staying low, the pump is not large enough to supply all those demands at the same time. If the pump is cycling on and off, you have plenty of pump and the cycling is why the pressure is low at the faucets.

If the pressure just stays low because the pump is too small, you could add a cistern and booster pump. But with about 70 gallons stored in the well between static and pump level, it would be best to just install a large pump in the well.

Most likely the pump is large enough and just cycling on and off causing the low pressure. If so, simply adding a CSV1A Cycle Stop Valve will solve your problem. With a two story house and a 60 gallon tank I would adjust the pressure switch up to 50/70 and set the CSV to deliver a strong constant 65 PSI. With 65 PSI constant you will no longer even need soap in the shower. Lol!


CSV1A with 20 gallon tank cross.png


 

Reach4

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I don't suspect any restrictions in the system, as when no water is being used, the pressure and volume is fantastic throughout the house.
A partially clogged filter or crushed pipe will not drop much pressure when water usage is low.

Confirm that the pressure gauge reads a low pressure when your symptoms occur to rule out an obstruction downstream of the pressure gauge.
 

ghooper18

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A partially clogged filter or crushed pipe will not drop much pressure when water usage is low.

Confirm that the pressure gauge reads a low pressure when your symptoms occur to rule out an obstruction downstream of the pressure gauge.
Yes I believe my pressure is low when there is no flow. I will double check to be sure .

Thank you!!!
 

ghooper18

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Yeah, very common questions. Adding an extra pressure tank will make the pressure worse, as the pump doesn't start until the tank(s) are empty. You still only get what the pump can supply as water comes from the pump, not the tank.

You have one of two problem. Either the pump is cycling on and off 40 to 60 over and over while all that water is being used, or the pressure is just going low like 30-40 and staying there. If the pressure is just staying low, the pump is not large enough to supply all those demands at the same time. If the pump is cycling on and off, you have plenty of pump and the cycling is why the pressure is low at the faucets.

If the pressure just stays low because the pump is too small, you could add a cistern and booster pump. But with about 70 gallons stored in the well between static and pump level, it would be best to just install a large pump in the well.

Most likely the pump is large enough and just cycling on and off causing the low pressure. If so, simply adding a CSV1A Cycle Stop Valve will solve your problem. With a two story house and a 60 gallon tank I would adjust the pressure switch up to 50/70 and set the CSV to deliver a strong constant 65 PSI. With 65 PSI constant you will no longer even need soap in the shower. Lol!


View attachment 101322



Actually before seeing your reply, I had already discovered and ordered from CSV.
I will see if that fixes or mitigates the issue.

Another thing I’ve been thinking about is the hot water tank. I’ve got a 50 gallon now. I was wondering if I should upgrade to a 75-98 gallon to help the cause.
That way, even if all of my cold supply from the well is used up from laundry or whatever, there would be a large reserve of hot water for showers. But not sure if it even matters once pressure hits 40 and the demand is over what the pump can supply.

I’m a cheap ass so when looking into bigger heaters I also discovered thermostatic mixing valves that go into the hot water tank, also called hot water booster valves from the products I see on the market.
I’m wondering if this would help or hurt the water pressure situation. Sure, this type of valve will “increase” my hot water supply , but it will use cold supply to do that. So while I’ll have 120F hot water for longer, the overall flow of water may be worse since I’m pulling more cold water than a normal water heater setup.
 

ghooper18

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Did some diagnostics, I think I have this mostly worked out.

Turned on 4 faucets, 2 upstairs 2 on main level. Should be about 6gpm.
Watched the pressure and the switch. Went down all the way to ~35psi before clicking on and all the way to ~65psi before clicking off. Took about 15 minutes to build that 30 lbs of pressure and fill the tank again.
Pressure at the taps were "acceptable" throughout the whole range but obviously had a some lack of flow when the tank was depleting without the additional flow from the pump.

I adjusted the range nut by tightening up 2 turns and loosened the lefthand "gain" nut all the way in attempt to restore the pressure switch to 40/60. The result is now 40psi kick on and 65psi kick off. I think this switch needs to be replaced or at least the springs, but like Valveman stated, I think I would rather switch it out for a 50/70 switch. The well tank is at ground level in the basement and with 9ft ceilings, there is like a 25-30ft climb to get to the shower heads.

If anything, I believe I may have too large of a well pressure tank! I think my pump is working fine since it overcame the 6gpm faucet dump quite easily, it just takes forever to bridge a 30psi differential in such a 62gal tank.
The issue of "no-flow" seems to only occur when laundry or another high gpm demand is on while the well pump is off.
As soon as the tank was depleted and the pump kicked on, the wife had adequate pressure to take a shower while doing laundry.

Next Steps:
I have received the CSV1A from CSV. I'm wondering if I should install on my system as-is or reduce my tank size. I like the idea of the small tank from CSV for consistent pressure and flow from my pump, but think that would cause the pump to have a lot more starts and stops throughout the day. Maybe a 10-20 gal tank?

Noticed my well tank tee could probably use replacing...
There is no check valve. I've read conflicting views on this as there is likely a check valve in the system closer to the pump? I don't want to cause water hammer here - I don't have any currently and am enjoying it.
There is some galvanized fittings and pipe about a foot away from the tank before the water hits a spin-down filter and gets distributed to the rest of the house... will replace that.
The valve to drain the tank coming off the tee spins but does not release any water, so needs to be replaced.
As stated, new pressure switch is likely in order.


Thanks again folks. Penny for your thoughts !
 

Reach4

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Turned on 4 faucets, 2 upstairs 2 on main level. Should be about 6gpm.
Watched the pressure and the switch. Went down all the way to ~35psi before clicking on and all the way to ~65psi before clicking off. Took about 15 minutes to build that 30 lbs of pressure and fill the tank again.

The only thing I was wondering is how rapidly the pressure rises when no water is being used. Unlikely, but if the pump can only produce 72 psi, you would not want to be using a 70 psi pressure switch. You want some margin.

Also note that a bigger WH tank or mixing valve will not increase available pressure/flow. They can change how much hot water you can use before the water turns not-hot.

Noticed my well tank tee could probably use replacing...
There is no check valve. I've read conflicting views on this as there is likely a check valve in the system closer to the pump? I don't want to cause water hammer here - I don't have any currently and am enjoying it.
There is some galvanized fittings and pipe about a foot away from the tank before the water hits a spin-down filter and gets distributed to the rest of the house... will replace that.
The valve to drain the tank coming off the tee spins but does not release any water, so needs to be replaced.

"Tank tee could use replacing?" Those don't usually wear out. Maybe you are looking for an added feature. Also note that the tank tee does not have to be inline. You can tee off before the tank tee to feed the house, but the CSV would need to be upstream of that tee. Inline is good of course, but teed off before is also good.



Most pumps have a check valve built in. If you want a backup for that, or if you have a pump with no check valve, the separate check valve should go right above the pump.

Replacing galvanized is good. Officially PVC pressure pipe in occupied space is not allowed. It should be allowed for cold. Maybe there is an unofficial dispensation before the pressure tank? CPVC is allowed, as is PEX. Slip joint CPVC and PEX are smaller than PVC for a given nominal size. They do make schedule 40 and schedule 80 CPVC, which are not smaller.

What does your spin-down filter catch? Those are mainly for courser stuff like sand. Perhaps a cartridge filter would be good there. Those could deal with some course stuff, but also take out fine stuff. I like the PENTEK-DGD-5005-20 cartridge. If you get a cartridge filter, keep an extra o-ring on hand. Those sumps for the 4.5x20 inch cartridges are heavy when full of water, so you don't want the access to be awkward.

Additonally: You usually want to avoid stainless to stainless threaded connections due to concern for "galling". An anti-sieze for stainless might make that ok, but you can also alternate with brass or plastic. Avoid plastic female threads except at the filters, where they make them beefy.
 
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ghooper18

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The only thing I was wondering is how rapidly the pressure rises when no water is being used. Unlikely, but if the pump can only produce 72 psi, you would not want to be using a 70 psi pressure switch. You want some margin.

Also note that a bigger WH tank or mixing valve will not increase available pressure/flow. They can change how much hot water you can use before the water turns not-hot.



"Tank tee could use replacing?" Those don't usually wear out. Maybe you are looking for an added feature. Also note that the tank tee does not have to be inline. You can tee off before the tank tee to feed the house, but the CSV would need to be upstream of that tee. Inline is good of course, but teed off before is also good.



Most pumps have a check valve built in. If you want a backup for that, or if you have a pump with no check valve, the separate check valve should go right above the pump.

Replacing galvanized is good. Officially PVC pressure pipe in occupied space is not allowed. It should be allowed for cold. Maybe there is an unofficial dispensation before the pressure tank? CPVC is allowed, as is PEX. Slip joint CPVC and PEX are smaller than PVC for a given nominal size. They do make schedule 40 and schedule 80 CPVC, which are not smaller.

What does your spin-down filter catch? Those are mainly for courser stuff like sand. Perhaps a cartridge filter would be good there. Those could deal with some course stuff, but also take out fine stuff. I like the PENTEK-DGD-5005-20 cartridge. If you get a cartridge filter, keep an extra o-ring on hand. Those sumps for the 4.5x20 inch cartridges are heavy when full of water, so you don't want the access to be awkward.

Additonally: You usually want to avoid stainless to stainless threaded connections due to concern for "galling". An anti-sieze for stainless might make that ok, but you can also alternate with brass or plastic. Avoid plastic female threads except at the filters, where they make them beefy.

From 40psi to 67psi it took 3 min 45 seconds with no demand.

Yeah, as I thought about the hot water situation, that became clear. Thank you for clearing it up...

The tee itself is fine but there is no check valve (sounds like its unnecessary anyway), no pressure relief valve, and a gate valve for main shutoff instead of a ball, which I would prefer. And the hose bib coming off is non-op.
So do I need a new tee? probably not but for sure the components need replacing.

spindown filter catches what looks to me like small rust particles. When we first moved in it didn't seem to have much buildup on it, but since shocking the well it needs a flush almost daily to be kept clean. I'm thinking a cartridge filter alone would get clogged in no time.
Morton makes a whole house filtration system sold through menards that has a backflush mechanism so no filters are needed. maybe thats the move here - or at least an automated valve to flush the existing spindown. Wouldn't mind having a cartidge in addition after the spindown, just don't want to create unnecessary pressure drop.

I attached some pics here... this is 1-2 days buildup. You can see it breaks off in chunks when flushing. Water coming from the tap is mostly clear maybe a little yellow, but the catch bucket gets pretty gnarly.
 

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Reach4

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From 40psi to 67psi it took 3 min 45 seconds with no demand.
If it took 70 seconds to go from 62 to 67 I would not be looking to raise the cutoff pressure. I picked those numbers pretty arbitrarily.
 
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