I Am 99% Sure I know the Problem, But I Don't Want To Admit It.
- Thread starter Daavewaard
- Start date
LLigetfa
DIYer, not in the trades
It would tell you how many PSI the pump can make. Do the math at .43 PSI per foot of depth plus the PSI you desire and compare it to the published pump curve. I'm guessing at least 170 PSI. If the pump cannot make that much pressure there is not much point putting it down the hole.
Have you verified that you have the right model of pump?
Surely you have 200 feet of wire coiling up at your feet that you could simply keep attached to the pump?
I assumed you could haul water from a neighbor for the purpose of testing.
After my pump rotor locked from sand injestion, I tested it in a 5 gallon pail before sending it back down the hole.
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Craigpump
In the Trades
I have seen more than one Goulds not work right out of the box.
Pressure testing is a good idea and is really, pretty easy to do with the pump in the well. All you need is a T on top of the drop pipe, a gauge and bushing for one branch of the T and a valve on the othe branch. Turn the pump on, close the valve and see what the gauge reads.
Pressure testing is a good idea and is really, pretty easy to do with the pump in the well. All you need is a T on top of the drop pipe, a gauge and bushing for one branch of the T and a valve on the othe branch. Turn the pump on, close the valve and see what the gauge reads.
Daavewaard
Member
So, let me see if I get this idea correctly. If I run the pump in a garbage can full of water with a six foot length of PVC that is capped and tee'd to a pressure gauge...that will give me a reading fairly quickly about the psi, correct?
LLigetfa
DIYer, not in the trades
Yes, it would.
Tom Sawyer
In the Trades
It seemed to me like this thread was starting to get convoluted so I read through it. Again. The pump is bad. No bad check valves or broken pipes. The pump is just plain bad.
Texas Wellman
In the Trades
More than likely a bad splice. I have rarely had one DOA (Myers) and never a Goulds.
Also check to make sure that you have the right wires matched up (black, yellow, red).
Also check to make sure that you have the right wires matched up (black, yellow, red).
Daavewaard
Member
I read a test procedure here to check the splice but I want to revalidate what to do. My splice at the moment is sitting in a plastic tray of water. What procedure would be best? Thanks.
Daavewaard
Member
While you may indeed be correct, I need to test it to prove it myself and have something to tell my retailer other than I think it's bad and others do too. I will report later. Thanks.
A leaky splice would not cause your symptoms. But, without referring to established procedures, I would set my ohmmeter to its highest range. Test that when placed 2 inches apart in the water in your tray, there is significant conductivity (opposite of resistance). The TDS of the water will determine the amount. Then put one lead into the tray, and touch the other lead to some place on the same wire where that wire is bare. Less conduction/ higher ohms is better. I don't have a number for you, but I expect 5 megohm is good and 50000 ohms (50kOhm) is bad. In between, seek out established test values.
So what splice characteristic would cause your symptom? It would have to be some kind of open (more than a couple ohms of resistance). So if you tested the resistance from the yellow at the control box end to both the red and black in turn, if the resistance is normal, your splices are not open. With an open splice you would get too high of a resistance in one of your measurements. If your symptoms were intermittent you would wiggle splices while doing your measurement. A change due to wiggling a splice would show a bad splice.
What resistance should you see? They would be similar to those in the Franklin AIM manual for a similar pump plus the resistance of the wire. If I got that right, expect 1.7 to 2.1 ohms for the black to yellow and
between 7.5 and 9.212 ohms for the red to yellow resistance. Then gauge copper wire would be about .16 ohms per 100 feet, and 14 gauge would be .25. So if you have 500 feet (round trip) of 14 gauge, expect about 1.25 ohms for the wire. Add that to what the Franklin AIM manual says for the motor, and see if things look right.
Craigpump
In the Trades
In the mean time his wife has run up a $4000.00 bill at the local Holiday Inn.........
LLigetfa
DIYer, not in the trades
Holiday Inn is cheap compared to lawyers.
Daavewaard
Member
Well, in the end my 99% sure that it was the check valve was not correct. It was indeed the 1% chance item after all.
Well man tired. Aaaaaarrrggghhh.
But…I have water! Voila. It’s like magic. No Problem! Yuck, Yuck!
The story is long. You may stop reading at any time. Some people will be stopping here, having read that water is now at hand. But others will want to know what happened since the story was updated last. Well……………..
When we last left the homeowner he was picking up 220’ of schedule 1 1/4” 80 PVC and was deciding to pressure test the pump at ground level as well as test the submerged electrical splice.
Here are those test results:
1. First test of water-proof splices, using the idea where the spliced area would be submerged in water…no conductivity identified between splice area submerged in water and bare ends of either red, yellow, or black wires.
2. Set-up and tested pump temporarily connected to the control box.
a. Please imagine the pump in 24” of water standing vertically as if it was at the bottom of a well. Attached to the top of the pump is 3-4 feet of 1 1/4” PVC then a Tee in the line with one leading to a pressure gauge and the other reducing to 1” PVC elbow leading to a ball valve, then more 1” PVC until the open end can return the pumped water to the test container.
This test will prove the pump is OK, by verifying water pressure and allow recording amperage readings.
1. Test results: pump ran less than ten seconds and seemed quite strong. No fuses or breakers popped, but pump stopped unexpectedly. Re-do test.
2. Test results: again, pump ran less than ten seconds but my son, who joined me for the day was in the pit and for the first time in this episode noted that the Pump Saver was flashing green…and then stopped flashing. I had never seen this over the weeks, as I never got into the pit to notice the flashing green and because the flashing green quickly stopped never had the chance to see it.
The flashing green means that the Pump Saver thought the well was dry or that the line was restricted…and it shut down the pump….repeatedly.
The notion that the well was dry wasn’t plausible as the water was re-circulating in my container…but…compared to 1 1/4” PVC, perhaps 1” for a couple feet may have been a restriction to the Pump Saver so we removed the 1” PVC and ran 1 1/4” both up and down back into the container. The test was successful…the pump saver allowed the pump to run indefinitely, at appropriate amps…and the pressure gauge went to 150 and stayed there once the pump was manually shut off.
I thought I was in heaven…but angry that I never looked at the Pump Saver as the culprit.
But…the saga was not over.
After dropping the pump and schedule 80 pipe 205 feet into the casing and turning it on…the Pump Saver disabled it yet again.
It was déjà vu all over again.
And yes…you guessed the final step…by wiring around the pump saver it was Splish-Spalsh, it was finally time for a bath.
So…if you are still reading…thanks…and here’s the open question:
My Pump Saver does not have a sensitivity adjustment like some new ones do so I’m ready to trash it and not replace it, as if it was 1984 all over again. Here’s to simplicity.
For protection, my system has the circuit breaker at the house, fuses inline near the control box as part of a manual disabling disconnect lever feature, the control box with its own resetting function, and a new CSV1A.
Would you re-install a Pump Saver (SymCom)?
P.S. Yes, reflecting on the past several weeks, many of my symptoms could be traced back to the Pump Saver if I had been able to see the blinking green light…and especially the steps I took to re-energize the system after shut-down.
Anyone looking for an 11 year old 1 1/2 hp pump that may have some life in it afterall? How about a used control box that didn't have to be replaced. And the debate about schedule 40 vs schedule 80...what great fun!!!
Questions?
Well man tired. Aaaaaarrrggghhh.
But…I have water! Voila. It’s like magic. No Problem! Yuck, Yuck!
The story is long. You may stop reading at any time. Some people will be stopping here, having read that water is now at hand. But others will want to know what happened since the story was updated last. Well……………..
When we last left the homeowner he was picking up 220’ of schedule 1 1/4” 80 PVC and was deciding to pressure test the pump at ground level as well as test the submerged electrical splice.
Here are those test results:
1. First test of water-proof splices, using the idea where the spliced area would be submerged in water…no conductivity identified between splice area submerged in water and bare ends of either red, yellow, or black wires.
2. Set-up and tested pump temporarily connected to the control box.
a. Please imagine the pump in 24” of water standing vertically as if it was at the bottom of a well. Attached to the top of the pump is 3-4 feet of 1 1/4” PVC then a Tee in the line with one leading to a pressure gauge and the other reducing to 1” PVC elbow leading to a ball valve, then more 1” PVC until the open end can return the pumped water to the test container.
This test will prove the pump is OK, by verifying water pressure and allow recording amperage readings.
1. Test results: pump ran less than ten seconds and seemed quite strong. No fuses or breakers popped, but pump stopped unexpectedly. Re-do test.
2. Test results: again, pump ran less than ten seconds but my son, who joined me for the day was in the pit and for the first time in this episode noted that the Pump Saver was flashing green…and then stopped flashing. I had never seen this over the weeks, as I never got into the pit to notice the flashing green and because the flashing green quickly stopped never had the chance to see it.
The flashing green means that the Pump Saver thought the well was dry or that the line was restricted…and it shut down the pump….repeatedly.
The notion that the well was dry wasn’t plausible as the water was re-circulating in my container…but…compared to 1 1/4” PVC, perhaps 1” for a couple feet may have been a restriction to the Pump Saver so we removed the 1” PVC and ran 1 1/4” both up and down back into the container. The test was successful…the pump saver allowed the pump to run indefinitely, at appropriate amps…and the pressure gauge went to 150 and stayed there once the pump was manually shut off.
I thought I was in heaven…but angry that I never looked at the Pump Saver as the culprit.
But…the saga was not over.
After dropping the pump and schedule 80 pipe 205 feet into the casing and turning it on…the Pump Saver disabled it yet again.
It was déjà vu all over again.
And yes…you guessed the final step…by wiring around the pump saver it was Splish-Spalsh, it was finally time for a bath.
So…if you are still reading…thanks…and here’s the open question:
My Pump Saver does not have a sensitivity adjustment like some new ones do so I’m ready to trash it and not replace it, as if it was 1984 all over again. Here’s to simplicity.
For protection, my system has the circuit breaker at the house, fuses inline near the control box as part of a manual disabling disconnect lever feature, the control box with its own resetting function, and a new CSV1A.
Would you re-install a Pump Saver (SymCom)?
P.S. Yes, reflecting on the past several weeks, many of my symptoms could be traced back to the Pump Saver if I had been able to see the blinking green light…and especially the steps I took to re-energize the system after shut-down.
Anyone looking for an 11 year old 1 1/2 hp pump that may have some life in it afterall? How about a used control box that didn't have to be replaced. And the debate about schedule 40 vs schedule 80...what great fun!!!
Questions?
Congratulations on eventual success. I wonder how you measured the amps you did with the pump saver shutting you down. That doesn't fit IMO.
In post #15 you proposed throwing away your pump saver.
I don't know how likely your well is to run dry. If significant, you need something. Valveman's company offers an adjustable unit: http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_sensor.html
In post #15 you proposed throwing away your pump saver.
I don't know how likely your well is to run dry. If significant, you need something. Valveman's company offers an adjustable unit: http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_sensor.html
LLigetfa
DIYer, not in the trades
It's hard to give good advice when the data is dubious. There is a term in computing called GIGO. Garbage In, Garbage Out.
If you reread the OP, the symptoms were:
Pump pulling full amps
Pressure won't reach cutoff
Pumpsaver deemed good
Control box tripping
Now, if a pump is pulling full amps, the pumpsaver should not be shutting it down and according to the OP, it was not the pumpsaver but rather the control box tripping. 7 pages and more than a month later...
Craigpump
In the Trades
A month with little/no water and maximum inconvenience when a few hundred bucks for a pro would have figured out the issue in an hour.
To be fair, a lot of that was the threaded schedule 80 vs glued PVC vs poly discussions. My favorite was the candor of #58.
There may have been more than one problem, and at least one of those could have been intermittent.
Daavewaard
Member
I didn't post this information here to be ridiculed...I thought closing the loop might be helpful and of interest.
Many, many posts were extremely helpful to me and thoughtful...some not so much.
Thanks to all for your support.
Last edited:
LLigetfa
DIYer, not in the trades
It's not ridicule. It's an example to others that the quality of the advice is commensurate with the quality of data.
I agree with LL. Nobody was picking on you. We just do our best to help you figure out where the problem is. When you said the pump was pulling 10.3 amps but not pumping any water, which told us the pump was running and the water was not getting to the surface. This is why I thought it was a broken line down in the well. If you had told us the pump was not pulling any amps, we would have been able to help you diagnose without having to pull the pump.
And Craigpump was right that someone who knows how to use an ampmeter could have saved you a lot of trouble and expense. But hey, learning stuff is fun and good for you as long as the wife doesn’t pack her bags and leave before you get it figured out.
I got your email about using a Cycle Sensor. Yes the Cycle Sensor might be a little more user friendly, as it would actually say DRY when the pump runs dry. It also doubles as an ampmeter, as it continually reads the running amps when the pump is on. So you would have known more about what was going on.
As to the necessity of a device like the Cycle Sensor, you only have to pump the well dry one time to destroy the pump/motor. It may not be needed for years, but if you don’t have it the one time you pump the well dry, the pump won’t last 10 minutes pumping air.
And Craigpump was right that someone who knows how to use an ampmeter could have saved you a lot of trouble and expense. But hey, learning stuff is fun and good for you as long as the wife doesn’t pack her bags and leave before you get it figured out.
I got your email about using a Cycle Sensor. Yes the Cycle Sensor might be a little more user friendly, as it would actually say DRY when the pump runs dry. It also doubles as an ampmeter, as it continually reads the running amps when the pump is on. So you would have known more about what was going on.
As to the necessity of a device like the Cycle Sensor, you only have to pump the well dry one time to destroy the pump/motor. It may not be needed for years, but if you don’t have it the one time you pump the well dry, the pump won’t last 10 minutes pumping air.
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