How to join HP PVC Water pipe when must insert a piece?

[abrogard]

I have a one inch pvc pipe with a crack spurting water. I'll have to cut it out and insert a piece. But I see the joiners don't slide. They have a ring inside. And more, i see the pipe going into them doesn't even reach the ring.
So that means i suppose they are intended to be 'hammered home' ?
And I can't possibly insert say a 6" length with those at the end if they don't slide.
Like it all seems pretty difficult.
What's the best way to go about this"

 

[Reach4]

1. Make a U on its side from 4 elbows, and glue. There is a procedure for that.

2. Use a repair coupling made for the purpose. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Apollo-1-in-x-1-in-PVC-Slide-Repair-Coupling-PVCC1SL/317901080

 

[Sponsor]

 

[abrogard]

1. Make a U on its side from 4 elbows, and glue. There is a procedure for that.

2. Use a repair coupling made for the purpose. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Apollo-1-in-x-1-in-PVC-Slide-Repair-Coupling-PVCC1SL/317901080

Hi.. thanks for that.

It is good enough to go on but perhaps I can just ask you a couple more that're bugging me?

If I did the four elbows I'd need to get the size for the added long piece just right I guess. How to do that when it seems the pipe slides further in when it has glue on it than it does when dry? If that's right. Have you plumbers got a rule you go by for how much pipe will be inside the elbow? To make your measurements exact?

I was thinking to make my own sleeve by cutting the ring out from inside a joiner and insert a piece with a joiner at one end and my sleeve at the other. Fitting them dry that when I found the pipe doesn't slide in all the way to the ring. So how would I measure that accurately? And would the sleeve work? I actually did this job before and it has failed. But the fail is not on the sleeve it is on the join end. I perhaps didn't prep it right or glue it right - it was a confined hole in the ground with water an inch below and if I remember right I had hassles prepping and gluing in position. Anyway, point is the sleeve seems to have worked fine that time.

But four elbows sure looks more rugged and proper. what would you advise?

and p.s. how to build/insert a four elbow bit? build it first and then put it in the break? there'd be enough play to enable squeezing it in? how much play would depend on how long the offsets are I suppose. so is there a suggested length of offset with 1" pipe or what? - Woops.. I just noticed you said there is a procedure for it... where can I see that?

The repair coupling seems to be what I see in our bunnings hardware here as a 'telescopic' coupling and I couldn't figure it out when I saw them - because at one side it has an obvious socket where a 1" pipe would fit in, but at the other end it had a plain 1" pipe meaning you'd have a butt join there. Is it meant for us to use a joiner on that end? why not have a socket at each end?

 

[Fitter30]

Slide the coupling over the pipe glue the two 90s on slide the coupling to one shoulder, cement everything up slide the coupling in place.when you turn the water back on just crack the valve. Till the system is filled don't open the valve full open.

 

[abrogard]

Slide the coupling over the pipe glue the two 90s on slide the coupling to one shoulder, cement everything up slide the coupling in place.when you turn the water back on just crack the valve. Till the system is filled don't open the valve full open.

sorry, bud, but I can't quite understand. you're talking about using the four elbows AND the 'slide repair coupling' ?

 

[Reach4]

If I did the four elbows I'd need to get the size for the added long piece just right I guess. How to do that when it seems the pipe slides further in when it has glue on it than it does when dry? If that's right. Have you plumbers got a rule you go by for how much pipe will be inside the elbow? To make your measurements exact?

1. Glue two elbows and two equal-stubs into place. Take steps to keep the stubs parallel. The longer the stubs, the springier this will be. This springiness also helps deal with thermal expansion and contraction.

2. Measure the center to center distance for the stubs. The easy way is to measure the distance from the left side of one stub to the left side of the other stub. That will match the center-to-center.

3. For example, suppose you measure 12.00 inches. Note dimension G in the drawing below. G=11/16 inch.

From 12 inches, subtract 2*G.
12-(11/16*2)= 10.625 = 10-5/8 inches to cut the last piece of pipe.

Charlotte Pipe 1 in. PVC Sch. 40 90-Degree Elbow PVC023001000HD - The Home Depot

Provide an excellently modified addition to complete your plumbing work elegantly in the jobsite by selecting this amazing Charlotte Pipe PVC Elbow.

www.homedepot.com

Also see https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-when-must-insert-a-piece.113102/#post-794359

 

[wwhitney]

It is good enough to go on but perhaps I can just ask you a couple more that're bugging me?

If using the 4 90s method, the point is that the last connection has to consist of making up a joint from an unconstrained direction. So the last joint involves both of the pieces that are at 90 degrees to the main run, since the direction along the main run is the constrained direction. Seems to me the hard part of the 4 90s method is getting all the 90s coplanar, not sure if there is a clever method for that.

As to measuring the pipe, say you put the two elbows together (hub to hub, dry) and find that the two parallel open ends are maybe 3" apart. You need them to be 7" apart, so you need to end up with 4" of pipe exposed between hubs. Cut a piece of piece is maybe 8" long (4" plus two pipe diameters would be more than enough, unless your hubs are extra extra deep) and measure its length exactly. Then glue one one 90, and measure the remaining exposed length of pipe. The difference is the "take-up" of the joint. So cut your assembly so that the exposed length is 4" plus one makeup. Now you can glue on the final elbow and should get the result you want, assuming you are consistent and fully seat the pipe in the hub each time (and your pipe cuts are all square).

Cheers, Wayne

 

[abrogard]

Thanks for those explanations, guys. I guess I've got the idea now.

In practical terms doing the job I guess dry fitting will sort out all length problems.

Just leaving the gluing and a couple of vids I've seen seem to suggest that can be a bit of a hassle. One guy there applying glue to i think about six different areas and half of them 'sockets' so inside and out and then ramming it all together before it sets.

Don't fancy myself working that slickly at all. I think if I do 4 x 90 I'll make a 'U' shape, dry testing to get it right an then glue it up just leaving the legs free. Then glue the legs and stick them in. That means I won't be able to twist them in so I'll just have to be sure the pipes have smooth edges and the sockets clean.

 

[Reach4]

In practical terms doing the job I guess dry fitting will sort out all length problems.

Nope. Dry, the pipes don't get all of the way into the tapered sockets. No dry fitting of the actual pipes. You could sand some extra pipes for test purposes, so they are tapered as much or more than the sockets. Take your measurements. But use new pipe pieces to glue.

Another thing you can do is to push some pieces of pipe into the elbows to use to stick out farther to help you get those first glue joints parallel. So maybe glue A+B first. Then put some longer pieces temporary into B and L. Glue L-M. Remove the long test pieces, Glue B+C and L+K. Do your measurements from D to J. Cut F-G per the math. Stick your long temporary pipes into E and H, and on a flat surface away, glue E+F and H+G. Remove the long temporaries.

Gluing D+E and J+I simultaneously will take extra force, because you cannot twist. Make sure there is good priming, and maybe a little extra cement. Then apply a lot of force. Maybe have a helper. I am just imagining. I have not actually done this.

 

[abrogard]

Nope. Dry, the pipes don't get all of the way into the tapered sockets. No dry fitting of the actual pipes. You could sand some extra pipes for test purposes, so they are tapered as much or more than the sockets. Take your measurements. But use new pipe pieces to glue.

Another thing you can do is to push some pieces of pipe into the elbows to use to stick out farther to help you get those first glue joints parallel. So maybe glue A+B first. Then put some longer pieces temporary into B and L. Glue L-M. Remove the long test pieces, Glue B+C and L+K. Do your measurements from D to J. Cut F-G per the math. Stick your long temporary pipes into E and H, and on a flat surface away, glue E+F and H+G. Remove the long temporaries.

Gluing D+E and J+I simultaneously will take extra force, because you cannot twist. Make sure there is good priming, and maybe a little extra cement. Then apply a lot of force. Maybe have a helper. I am just imagining. I have not actually done this.
View attachment 105240

You've got it right. You're talking about exactly what's worrying me. I see the sense in what you're proposing. At the end there where I have to apply a lot of force I'm going to need to brace the back end, A,B, L,M, because on the job they're out there hanging in space... if I apply force at E and H they'll just move back. Or that wouldn't be a worry? The force to make that happen would be all the 'extra force' I'd need anyway to make a good join?

You're good at making the diagrams and I appreciate it, it helps a lot. How do you do that?

This I guess is a far better method than my 'sliding' sleeve homemade effort? That's a hurried affair, too. I have to prep and glue one end into a joiner and at the same time prep and glue both ends at the other end and the sliding joiner which has to slide down one pipe while I get them lined up and the slide back to cover the joint. I remember it being a bit of a hassle. Though the leak I have no is not from that joint.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

I just went through this kind of trouble on tuesday with my belly laying over and down in a 3 foot deep ditch...

I attempetd the same thing but their was not enough wiggle room with the 1 1/4 pvc pipe I was working with
buried in mud , and it did not go well... so I had to start over and this was basically a mud fest for me....

All you really need to do is glue a coupling onto one side of the run.... Whichever side has less wiggle room
you should glue the coupling onto..... then the side that you have a ton of room to work with
you need to go get yourself a PVC plastic dresser coupling with compression
nuts and washer on it.... the longer coupling that you can find the better it will work..... They are dirt
cheap and can be found anywhere....


measure the distance to the inside of the coupling and make it so it will go into the coupling and also
be close to even inside of the dresser coupling...... grease up the compression coupling with pipe dope so it will slide
all the way up onto the pipe... Before you glue it all together make
sure that both nuts on the dresser coupling line up properly and start them onto the threads

then just glue the end of the pvc nipple and inside the coupling
and insert it together..... Then slide the dresser coupling along the pipe to half way even between
the pipes and tighten down the dresser coupling and it will work.....

you will probably have a slight space in the center because it is never gonna be perfect....
in the center of the coupling but it will work fine as I just did this with 1 1/4 pipe....in a very mean situation

good luck

 

[Reach4]

An alternative to the Dresser coupling would be the Sharkbite UIP3020. You would need to create an appropriate size gap (I don't find a table with the needed gap). Bend one pipe enough to slip the coupling onto, put the two pipes back in line with each other, slide the coupling.

https://www.sharkbite.com/us/en/bra...s/couplings/push-to-connect-pvc-slip-coupling

You're good at making the diagrams and I appreciate it, it helps a lot. How do you do that?

The Paint program that comes with Windows. The one with the 4 90s was made with Windows 7 paint for this thread https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/pvc-compression-coupling-versus-slip-coupling.101549/ . If you make one elbow, copy that elbow, paste, rotate, and drag it to where you want that copy to go. Make one elbow, copy, and paste+rotate+drag 3 times. Windows 11 paint was initially harder, but I adapted.

WorthFlorida on https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/pvc-compression-coupling-versus-slip-coupling.101549/ #2 described use of the SharkBite, and points out that you also have to use the silicone wrap if you bury the SharkBite.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

An alternative to the Dresser coupling would be the Sharkbite UIP3020. You would need to create an appropriate size gap (I don't find a table with the needed gap). Bend one pipe enough to slip the coupling onto, put the two pipes back in line with each other, slide the coupling.

https://www.sharkbite.com/us/en/bra...s/couplings/push-to-connect-pvc-slip-coupling


The Paint program that comes with Windows. The one with the 4 90s was made with Windows 7 paint for this thread https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/pvc-compression-coupling-versus-slip-coupling.101549/ . If you make one elbow, copy that elbow, paste, rotate, and drag it to where you want that copy to go. Make one elbow, copy, and paste+rotate+drag 3 times. Windows 11 paint was initially harder, but I adapted.

WorthFlorida on https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/pvc-compression-coupling-versus-slip-coupling.101549/ #2 described use of the SharkBite, and points out that you also have to use the silicone wrap if you bury the SharkBite.

that maybe would work fine too. but I am not sure if one inch sch40 pvc will actually slide into that fitting or not.
I dont think it is the same outside diameter........

I know if it is one inch CPVC the sharkbite would work fine because I have done it before
but I dont think it will fit the sch40 stuff......

I might be mistaken about this but if I get into the mood, I have some one inch sharkbite stops out in my
truck that I could try to throw onto sch40 pipe to settle this question that will knaw at me the rest of the day.
and I might even lose sleep tonight too....

Now I need to know.....lol

 

[Reach4]

that maybe would work fine too. but I am not sure if one inch sch40 pvc will actually slide into that fitting or not.
I dont think it is the same outside diameter........

They have the CTS size for copper, CPVC. I was not aware that they also had the IPS for PVC size until after my first post on this thread. Then I noticed WorthFlorida's post on that, despite having posted on that thread back then after his. Most SharkBite fittings are for CTS size.

They also have a transition fitting for between PVC and CTS (smaller) pipes.

 

[abrogard]

you will probably have a slight space in the center because it is never gonna be perfect....
in the center of the coupling but it will work fine as I just did this with 1 1/4 pipe....in a very mean situation

Thanks for this. I did use one of these about twenty years ago, I remember. I'm not a plumber (obviously) and I've always felt I was sort of 'cheating' - using something not really right for the job like diy guys often do. But that one worked fine though it was very low pressure water in it, bush village stuff.

This town here has quite high pressure.

But if they are approved by the trade as kosher tools they fit exactly what I'm thinking. It makes a no nonsense unhurried good job of the thing. I really don't like the idea of dashing about trying to prep and glue eight locations and then hold it together in two directions at once while it sets. I know I could do it sort of but room for error for a stumblebum like me is great.

Saw a vid of a guy demonstrating this 4 x 90 technique - a guy employed by some professional outfit - and as noted in the comments a few places he missed one location out in his demo, himself !

I think I'll go get a coupler --- hang on.... I just browsed again and this 'expansion coupling' seems even better. Well it is glued. I'm not sure the compression thing is as trustworthy as glue? What about the rubber perishing over time maybe?

Anyway either this: expansion coupler or the plastic dresser coupling I will go with. Give up on the 4 x 90. If you've got a hardware store right handy might as well do it the simplest safest way I guess.

I didn't find a vid about how to use the sharkbite and I don't see it in our online hardware store catalogue either so thanks for the suggestion is all I can say right now.

Looks like the rain may stop today and the leak is patiently waiting for me since I put the hose clamp and rubber on it so maybe this is when it gets done.

I have to thank everyone here for their help. It's been great.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

The plastic dresser coupling I bought for the 1 1/4 pipe I was dealing with was rated for up to 300psi...
So i dont think you are gonna have an issue with it

 

[Reach4]

I didn't find a vid about how to use the sharkbite and I don't see it in our online hardware store catalogue either so thanks for the suggestion is all I can say right now.

In case somebody else is looking..

These videos are for the CTS versions rather than the PVC, but similar for PVC.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/SharkBite-UIP3020-1-SharkBite-PVC-x-1-Slip-Repair-Coupling

Competitor https://www.homedepot.com/p/Tectite...PVC-Slip-Repair-Coupling-FSBIPSC1SL/305483736

 

[abrogard]

The plastic dresser coupling I bought for the 1 1/4 pipe I was dealing with was rated for up to 300psi...
So i dont think you are gonna have an issue with it

amazing. so just as good as any glued joint and maybe even a tad better because you can't screw up the prep and the gluing. What I'll do is buy the cheaper of the two.