How a minor became so expensive

[Sylvan]

It took a certain mentality to mutilate a 4" waste line

If this nut case did not just place a violation on the waste line he unknowingly caused a lady walking into the garage to get her car to slip on the grease from the leaking clamp.

Now it becomes interesting

She slipped fracturing her ankle, the lawyer sent her to a back doctor who took an X ray and found a "possible" dislocated disc

The law firm used my services before so I told them I just increased my fee as this is a win ,win case

After he agreed I said now we can not only sue the building owner, we can go after the installer, then notify the department of building to place a violation of the shoddy work which is more evidence that this was contrary to code and fo good measure we can also go after the "big box store" for selling a product that is against good plumbing practices and detrimental to the public as it failed so product liability also comes into play

My affidavit stated

1- The brass clean out plug could have been opened to snake or water jet the grease line

2- If the plug was too hard to open then they had the option of taking off the two no hub couplings, clear the line and reinstall the piece with new couplings

These kind of law suits are fun to take on as it is so easy to prove negligence and the building owner wanted a cheap job this disaster may cost him over $300,000 pain and suffering and code violations. Hopefully the lady will be all right. Now for the kicker the land lord asked if I could repair this mess AFTER the law suit so it is not a conflict of interest

How crazy is that????

 

[DIYorBust]

So you're saying they cut a hole in the pipe to snake the line? I mean, that sounds like a lot more work than the solutions you proposed. Surely the pipe must have been damaged and that was why they did it? Still a short section, so easy to replace. But Sylvan, around here it's so difficult to qualify as a master plumber, that I see almost no master plumber actually touch a pipe. It appears to be a job that is 100% paperwork, at least on smaller projects. If you have grease coming out of a pipe on a Saturday afternoon, what do you do? You could go to the 24 hour plumbing supply and pick up a section of CI 4" and some couplings, cut it with a grinder and you're done in less than an hour, assuming that the pipe above is adequately supported. Or might be able to go to the big box and get a section of PVC pipe and put it in there temporarily. But for this repair, it's a small job for a licensed plumber. It's very difficult to actually get someone to come and do it, and the workers they send are sometimes terrible, terrible enough to do this. So a landlord that doesn't get their hands dirty might send their building maintenance guys to do it, or some handyman. I'd venture to say, that there are millions of people that could do this job properly, but it is illegal for them to do it. Those who are allowed to do it are often unavailable, and send low quality employees to small jobs, and charge thousands for them. Rarely do I see licensed pros do the paperwork they're supposed to do, such as filing ordinary plumbing work OP128, or LAA permits. They often cut all kinds of corners, and unless an inspector or engineer calls it out, they'll say it's great. Nothing like what you see here on this forum, where pros contemplate the minutiae of proper venting, or pipe pitch, and seem to take real pride in their work.

In the city, you need 7 years experience, an office, and to pass a lead wipe test among other things, to replace that section of pipe legally, and the result is it's not getting done, because in reality it is very difficult to perform minor work with a licensed plumber. I'm sure you remember, some dopes blew up a building in 2016 resulting in two deaths. A licensed plumber had signed the paperwork, but some dummies who apparently didn't work for him were doing the job. The reality on the ground is crappy plumbing works most of the time, so it's highly profitable for a even a master plumber to sub the work out to unqualified people, and avoid liability by limiting the paper trail. There's got to be a better way. Couldn't someone who took a short class, be allowed to replace say 10 feet of drain line? If that were the case, I'll bet your client would not have a broken ankle today.

I'm not at all saying that plumbers should not be licensed, but that it has become a dangerous situation here where the license and paperwork have become so complicated and crazy, that unlicensed people end up doing much of the work, and often badly.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Sylvan]

So you're saying they cut a hole in the pipe to snake the line? I mean, that sounds like a lot more work than the solutions you proposed. Surely the pipe must have been damaged and that was why they did it? Still a short section, so easy to replace. But Sylvan, around here it's so difficult to qualify as a master plumber, that I see almost no master plumber actually touch a pipe. It appears to be a job that is 100% paperwork, at least on smaller projects. If you have grease coming out of a pipe on a Saturday afternoon, what do you do? You could go to the 24 hour plumbing supply and pick up a section of CI 4" and some couplings, cut it with a grinder and you're done in less than an hour, assuming that the pipe above is adequately supported. Or might be able to go to the big box and get a section of PVC pipe and put it in there temporarily. But for this repair, it's a small job for a licensed plumber. It's very difficult to actually get someone to come and do it, and the workers they send are sometimes terrible, terrible enough to do this. So a landlord that doesn't get their hands dirty might send their building maintenance guys to do it, or some handyman. I'd venture to say, that there are millions of people that could do this job properly, but it is illegal for them to do it. Those who are allowed to do it are often unavailable, and send low quality employees to small jobs, and charge thousands for them. Rarely do I see licensed pros do the paperwork they're supposed to do, such as filing ordinary plumbing work OP128, or LAA permits. They often cut all kinds of corners, and unless an inspector or engineer calls it out, they'll say it's great. Nothing like what you see here on this forum, where pros contemplate the minutiae of proper venting, or pipe pitch, and seem to take real pride in their work.

In the city, you need 7 years experience, an office, and to pass a lead wipe test among other things, to replace that section of pipe legally, and the result is it's not getting done, because in reality it is very difficult to perform minor work with a licensed plumber. I'm sure you remember, some dopes blew up a building in 2016 resulting in two deaths. A licensed plumber had signed the paperwork, but some dummies who apparently didn't work for him were doing the job. The reality on the ground is crappy plumbing works most of the time, so it's highly profitable for a even a master plumber to sub the work out to unqualified people, and avoid liability by limiting the paper trail. There's got to be a better way. Couldn't someone who took a short class, be allowed to replace say 10 feet of drain line? If that were the case, I'll bet your client would not have a broken ankle today.

I'm not at all saying that plumbers should not be licensed, but that it has become a dangerous situation here where the license and paperwork have become so complicated and crazy, that unlicensed people end up doing much of the work, and often badly.

I had master plumbing license for the Village of Lawrence long Island (5 towns area) to install 10 - 4" cast iron roof drains for a Mini shopping center in the late 1980,s

I did NOT sit in the office, I did take a helper with me and installed 10 in one day @$1,500 each

Possibly this is why the small shopping center hired me in stead of some low life master plumber too lazy or stupid to go out and work with his / her hands not just their brain.

My 4 part masters exams for NYC required a 6 written test and a 7 hour practical so I guess having the knowledge to pass a practical I should use that knowledge to earn a living and I needed 10 years to be eligible to take these tests

Yesterday I was water Jetting a 50 family apartment house 10" main sewer, several soil stacks and floor drains in the garage and later a one family mansion for total of $5,000 WHY would I want to sit on my ass at a desk?



"Rarely do I see licensed pros do the paperwork they're supposed to do, such as filing ordinary plumbing work OP128, or LAA permits.

Lets think about your remark above

To deal with the city may take an hour or more so why would I want to tie myself up?

I do have 20 employees including 6 office staff to do the filing, schedule the jobs, send out invoices,check on the status of blue cards (gas) calling accounts for payment and dealing everyday with the DOB arranging inspections


I took in a partner who just passed the written NYC LMP exams and he goes to some gas inspections when I am not available .

Several of my employees now do the back flow testing, new construction , industrial and institutional,commercial and residential work and sewer and drain cleaning.

Yesterday the building owner also the superintendent of a 50 family home in the Bronx asked me how old I am I said in July I will be 78 he asked does owner take care of me? I said I am the owner he busted out laughing asking why I was clearing the grease out of the sewer I said the same reason you own a 50 family home and are the superintendent .

I like going out in the field hands on as this is what I was trained for

He gave me a $50 tip and then told me my guys did a great job replacing several gas risers.

Any descent employer should spot check the employees and get down and dirty as I never asked anyone to do something I did not do

Any old guys know what this C I fitting is

 

[DIYorBust]

Hey just to be clear, I'm not knocking you at all. But there aren't too many guys like you left in the city. And at 78, if you were just doing paperwork, and supervising people, I think that would be totally appropriate. I'm not anywhere near 78, but I can recall a short time in my life, when people used to buy fuses, and galvanized pipe was not that bad. In those days, you could hire a licensed plumber, and they would come and deal with your problem, and it wasn't cheap but it was doable. And everybody in the neighborhood knew these plumbers, and other types of tradespeople, and they would take care of problems. But if you have 6 guys dealing with the DOB, how much does it cost to replace 12 inches of drain pipe, by the book? The city is now like a highway with a speed limit of 5mph, but the cops know everyone speeds, everybody. But they don't stop anyone unless they hit somebody, then they throw the book at them 100%. It's a system that encourages the use of judgment proof entities like LLCs, and transfers risk to insurance companies, which raises everybody else's insurance premiums.

What did this city do after a building blew up from unqualified gas work? Well they said now almost every building needs to get an inspection of it's gas lines, but only where they are exposed and visible, every 3 years by a master plumber. The going rate is about 800 dollars. Now how many landlords do you think realized that sheetrock reduced the inspection burden, and how many master plumbers realized that there is virtually no liability in performing these inspections. When has a gas line suddenly failed catastrophically where an inspection didn't occur? I mean could it? Maybe, but it's never happened that I've heard of. It's a pretty good bet you can stamp hundreds of these, and make a lot of money without doing anything. Or you could actually do the inspection, and then say the pipes are rusty and charge ten thousand to fix it. Come on, it's been over 150+ years without that, and the pipes aren't suddenly exploding. Gas line from 1850 for gas lighting is still pressurized in some buildings and nobody cares about that.

My point is that what was once a nuisance in the city, now enters the realm of dangerous. The practical way that many people run a building under this system is put it in an LLC with a big mortgage, and then do all the work under the table. If someone gets hurt, maybe insurance pays, if not, liability is likely limited to the unmortgaged balance on the building. And it feels like the right thing to do, because it leaves them with money to pay their people. But the idea that a small landlord, or homeowner, or anybody could hire a quality plumber, and trust them to do a diligent job, it just isn't the reality in NYC today, and I wish that would change.

 

[Fitter30]

Hey just to be clear, I'm not knocking you at all. But there aren't too many guys like you left in the city. And at 78, if you were just doing paperwork, and supervising people, I think that would be totally appropriate. I'm not anywhere near 78, but I can recall a short time in my life, when people used to buy fuses, and galvanized pipe was not that bad. In those days, you could hire a licensed plumber, and they would come and deal with your problem, and it wasn't cheap but it was doable. And everybody in the neighborhood knew these plumbers, and other types of tradespeople, and they would take care of problems. But if you have 6 guys dealing with the DOB, how much does it cost to replace 12 inches of drain pipe, by the book? The city is now like a highway with a speed limit of 5mph, but the cops know everyone speeds, everybody. But they don't stop anyone unless they hit somebody, then they throw the book at them 100%. It's a system that encourages the use of judgment proof entities like LLCs, and transfers risk to insurance companies, which raises everybody else's insurance premiums.

What did this city do after a building blew up from unqualified gas work? Well they said now almost every building needs to get an inspection of it's gas lines, but only where they are exposed and visible, every 3 years by a master plumber. The going rate is about 800 dollars. Now how many landlords do you think realized that sheetrock reduced the inspection burden, and how many master plumbers realized that there is virtually no liability in performing these inspections. When has a gas line suddenly failed catastrophically where an inspection didn't occur? I mean could it? Maybe, but it's never happened that I've heard of. It's a pretty good bet you can stamp hundreds of these, and make a lot of money without doing anything. Or you could actually do the inspection, and then say the pipes are rusty and charge ten thousand to fix it. Come on, it's been over 150+ years without that, and the pipes aren't suddenly exploding. Gas line from 1850 for gas lighting is still pressurized in some buildings and nobody cares about that.

My point is that what was once a nuisance in the city, now enters the realm of dangerous. The practical way that many people run a building under this system is put it in an LLC with a big mortgage, and then do all the work under the table. If someone gets hurt, maybe insurance pays, if not, liability is likely limited to the unmortgaged balance on the building. And it feels like the right thing to do, because it leaves them with money to pay their people. But the idea that a small landlord, or homeowner, or anybody could hire a quality plumber, and trust them to do a diligent job, it just isn't the reality in NYC today, and I wish that would change.

Don't care if your a one man shop or multiple employees. Today you can't work for $30 hour drive a 10 year old service truck doing small jobs. Truck with lettering, shelving, osha screen, ladder rack and basic tools easily $80k +.
Insurance for the truck and business. All the licenses needed from a business, to a mechanical and plumbing. Continue education to keep the up. Difference in tools for the professional cost a lot more than Harbor Freight. Can afford cheap tools. Have to charge for all the consumables. Some companies are charging by flat rate instead of time and materials.

 

[DIYorBust]

Don't care if your a one man shop or multiple employees. Today you can't work for $30 hour drive a 10 year old service truck doing small jobs. Truck with lettering, shelving, osha screen, ladder rack and basic tools easily $80k +.
Insurance for the truck and business. All the licenses needed from a business, to a mechanical and plumbing. Continue education to keep the up. Difference in tools for the professional cost a lot more than Harbor Freight. Can afford cheap tools. Have to charge for all the consumables. Some companies are charging by flat rate instead of time and materials.

Thanks Fitter, sorry for the rant, and Sylvan, I apologize, I didn't mean to imply you don't do field work. But I'm pointing, and I think you are aware, how a lot of other plumbing work is done in the city, including under LMPs. I'm not really talking about pricing, I'm specifically talking about NYC and how regulations have gotten so bad and bizarre, that I believe there is a lack of qualified plumbers, and dangerous work abounds. We have one of the lowest rates of licensed plumbers per resident in the country, and some of the most complicated plumbing systems and rules. I don't think it's that good for plumbers, who spend tons of time on nonsensical paperwork designed to create liability for them. Being a good plumber requires a pretty high intelligence. You need to be able to visualize how pipes will line up in three dimensions, perform calculations to optimize your design and minimize costs, use correct materials. Know codes. Run a business. I'd say plumbers in NYC bill out at least 250-300 per hour, maybe as much as 400, but the actual guy who shows up will often be an apprentice who frankly may be less skilled than a DIY. If you have a minor repair, it's may not be practical use an actual plumber, and that's in a home or market rate building. Think about landlords who own rent stabilized buildings. There's no way they're going to call a licensed plumber if they can avoid it. I once paid 800 dollars to replace a single copper coupling, landlords around here don't make money doing that. Look if someone is running a gas line maybe they should have 7 years of experience, although in most places it's less. But if someone's fixing a leak in a drain line, it sounds like it's not a job you'd want anyway, and people are turning to unqualified plumbers with dangerous results. It's always been the case here, but it wasn't always the case that you couldn't find a decent licensed plumber. There are still a few around, but not too many. I think it should be possible for a licensed plumber to make a living doing small jobs, because people need small plumbing jobs done. Sylvan's photo shows what people are doing here every day instead.

Out on long island, different story. There are couple plumbers I call, they own a nice truck with lettering, and nice tools, the work looks just great, they answer questions appropriately, address concerns, supervise the work, care about the result. Probably charging 150-200 per hour for an actual master plumber. They probably do a standard of work you're used to, fitter. But the problem is their truck turns back into a pumpkin when they cross into NYC.

 

[Sylvan]

Every 2 years I have to take an 8 hr CEU class to renew my licenses for another 3 years


I was in contact with a LMP in Brooklyn 87 years old and he was still working with a helper 2 person shop.

A lot of "old timers" still enjoy working physically.

It is really a small world. The two toddlers who died in Hunts point I was one of the expert witnesses and there was a PE also and metallurgist called in for their reports

My affidavit was one paragraph the engineers was 6 pages.

The law firm LaSaltz Mongeluzzi Barrett & Bendesky, P.C. fired the engineer and kept me on as a consultant and the case was settled out of court

Now I am on a case in Brooklyn where a lady was severely scalded and the PE is working for the defense of the building owners law firm and his affidavit had all kinds of outdated code information and how the steam boiler had passed its yearly inspection and the tempering valve "seemed OK"

My affidavit stated I am a certified low pressure boiler installer and inspector and the boil code does not care about the tank-less coil or the tempering devices

I also stated as a hands on boiler inspector I do two boiler inspections yearly internal when the boiler is not being fired and external during the heating season

1- Did he bother to check the accuracy of the outlet gauge of the tempering device?

2- Did he ever bother to actually "work" on a system? Below is his resume BUT unfortunately the jury sided with my findings and we won the case. His looks impressive BUT without actually working on a system

 

[DIYorBust]

But to be fair, he cannot legally work on a system unless he obtains 3 out of the most recent 5 years experience working under an LMP, which is the requirement for a PE to become a master plumber, kind of an unlikely path for an engineer. Which means the engineer who literally designed a boiler for the manufacturer, would not be permitted to service one.

 

[Sylvan]

But to be fair, he cannot legally work on a system unless he obtains 3 out of the most recent 5 years experience working under an LMP, which is the requirement for a PE to become a master plumber, kind of an unlikely path for an engineer. Which means the engineer who literally designed a boiler for the manufacturer, would not be permitted to service one.

I was talking to a PE and he said he failed the written NYC master plumbers exam.

He asked me how many time did I take it I said once why?

After a long discussion it came out to be a PE it was an open book exam but you had to know which book and page to look for

The plumbing written test was all from memory codes and formulas.

An Architect she said she had a 4 hour class on plumbing.

She hired me to size the vent, waste, soil lines and storm drainage and she filed it under her license

I did have a young mechanical engineer work for me under my fire suppression license which has no practical exam so he would have some hands on experience.