Help Identify Valve and Brine Draw Issues

[Kevin Craig]

Hi all,

Bought a house with this system installed and it has not been softening lately. Isolated it to the brine draw step, which is not working properly. I tested the line everwhere past the valve and did the "suck test" and I believe there are no issues with the line, float valve, or any sort of sediment clog - so it must be valve related. Note that when I run brine draw, the unit is actually ADDING water to the tank very slowly. I removed the connection to the valve and could not identify any obvious blockages.

I have a technician aware of the issue but he cannot come out for another few weeks so I am hoping to resolve this one on my own.

TIA

 

[Kevin Craig]

Ok I believe this is Hellenbrand valve. I am wondering if I need to clean the injector screen and filter. Can I just put the valve on bypass mode and do this without turning off my well pump and pressure tank? The water is always murky for a few days when I have to do that.

https://www.hellenbrand.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Manual-Consumers-E3-800540.pdf

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Kevin Craig]

I ran the brine draw stage again and it's actually adding more water to the tank!

 

[Cliffyk]

That appears to be a rebranded Clack WS1 valve, here's an online tutorial discussing cleaning the injector and screens. You do not have to shutdown your pump or the feed from the tank--the "murkiness" is likely what has fouled the injector. you need a "big blue" 20" sediment filter in the supply line to the softener--I'd start with a 10 micron element.

 

[Kevin Craig]

That appears to be a rebranded Clack WS1 valve, here's an online tutorial discussing cleaning the injector and screens. You do not have to shutdown your pump or the feed from the tank--the "murkiness" is likely what has fouled the injector. you need a "big blue" 20" sediment filter in the supply line to the softener--I'd start with a 10 micron element.

Thanks! In this case would you bypass the softener and then start with just cleaning out the injector components?

As for the sediment filter, do you recommend any backwashing setups that might have less maintenance than the big blue? I think that would need to be removed and cleaned periodically

 

[Kevin Craig]

Update, I put in in bypass mode and then initiated regen to release pressure. Unscrewed the injector cap and immediately saw a thick layer of iron sediment in the housing. I removed excess water with a turkey baster and cleaned the housing while the injector soaked in CLR. I then cleaned the injector using a toothpick and some Q tips. Reinstalled everything and now I am hearing that sucking noise when the brine draw stage occurs. Hoping to be back in business soon as I dearly miss my soft water lol.

 

[Reach4]

Wow. Did you have a top basket with slots?

Makes me wonder why a backwash did not clean out that scum.

During regen, expect the brine to be drawn out during about the first 15 minutes of a brine draw cycle.

I suspect your resin could benefit from a cleaning process. I am partial to Iron Out. https://www.menards.com/main/grocer...tain-remover/io10n/p-1444444183163-c-7097.htm

 

[Kevin Craig]

Wow. Did you have a top basket with slots?

Makes me wonder why a backwash did not clean out that scum.

During regen, expect the brine to be drawn out during about the first 15 minutes of a brine draw cycle.

I suspect your resin could benefit from a cleaning process. I am partial to Iron Out. https://www.menards.com/main/grocer...tain-remover/io10n/p-1444444183163-c-7097.htm

Thanks for the tip, I had no idea the resin could be cleaned like this. Do you just pour it in the salt tank and do a full regen?

Also, my brine draw is set to 80 minutes and it was sucking brine water the whole time (The tank was way high). I had to run my tub for like 5 minutes to get all of the salt water flushed out. I don't think my settings are ideal from the previous owner.

 

[Kevin Craig]

Also, can anyone comment on my current settings? The water coming in is a 14 on the hardness scale. I am not even sure what "Softening" stage is (slow rinse) but that seems really long.

1. Fill - 6 mins
2. Softening - 240 mins
3. Backwash - 8 mins
4. Regen Draw - 72 mins
5. Rinse 4 mins

 

[Reach4]

Due to the order of things, I expect that your softener is set up for fill-first, meaning that the brine tank would be mostly empty of brine most of the time. Then when the regen is started, the water is injected to make brine. Then wait for the salt to dissolve. Is that softening stage the wait time, or is the wait time 240-8-82-4=146? I have not seen that "softening" word in this context before.

 

[Kevin Craig]

Due to the order of things, I expect that your softener is set up for fill-first, meaning that the brine tank would be mostly empty of brine most of the time. Then when the regen is started, the water is injected to make brine. Then wait for the salt to dissolve. Is that softening stage the wait time, or is the wait time 240-8-82-4=146? I have not seen that "softening" word in this context before.

That softening stage is a full 240 mins! And it's dead silent. Does not sound like anything is happening with the valve.

 

[Reach4]

That softening stage is a full 240 mins! And it's dead silent. Does not sound like anything is happening with the valve.

Salt is dissolving into the water silently. That is a lot of minutes. I presume the water is being softened during that time and up to when the backwash stops. From backwash to rinse, the unit will bypass water.

So I would think that the regen time would be set earlier as a consequence, but I am not sure. Does the regen time indicate when backwash starts, or when the brine fill starts?

 

[Kevin Craig]

Salt is dissolving into the water silently. That is a lot of minutes. I presume the water is being softened during that time and up to when the backwash stops. From backwash to rinse, the unit will bypass water.

So I would think that the regen time would be set earlier as a consequence, but I am not sure. Does the regen time indicate when backwash starts, or when the brine fill starts?

Hmmm, I'm not sure if I understand the question. But the unit is set to regenerate at 2:00 a.m. and then it goes in the exact order that I posted above. So I think you must be right. There is no water in the tank most of the time, then it fills it as first step of the regeneration process. Then it waits for 240 minutes for the water to soften before the brine draw. This valve has the option to be up or down draw, and down is selected. Not sure if that's relevant.

One other thing - I had to run the faucet for like 20 minutes after the regeneration was complete because the water was bubbly and salty and brown! (From the iron out I presume). I don't think the rinse at the end is long enough. Only 4 minutes. Do you know how to calculate how long this rinse should be?

 

[Reach4]

The brine should be drawn maybe 18 to 20 minutes into the 72 minute draw, and the air check valve closes. The remainder of the minutes will be a slow rinse.

Here are some threads to get you started. I would use more Iron Out and/or repeat the treatment. Do wear your N95 mask while pouring the powder/crystals.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/garys-trick-and-how-effective-is-iron-out.47363/

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/using-iron-out-in-softener-and-reddish-water-after-regeneration.97324/post-700704

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/foamy-brown-hard-water-after-regen-clack-ws1.100354/

 

[Kevin Craig]

After flushing the iron out for 20 minutes, my water is testing at zero hardness, success! But it smells like a hot brake pad, not success lol. Reading up on the threads you linked but in the meantime I am starting another regen.

 

[Reach4]

If during brine draw, you pull the power, you will slow rinse for an extended time. That should rinse the IO out nicely. When you turn the power on , do another regen.

 

[Cliffyk]

Also, can anyone comment on my current settings? The water coming in is a 14 on the hardness scale. I am not even sure what "Softening" stage is (slow rinse) but that seems really long.

1. Fill - 6 mins
2. Softening - 240 mins
3. Backwash - 8 mins
4. Regen Draw - 72 mins
5. Rinse 4 mins

The softener is definitely setup for in "prefill" mode, what is happening is:

1. The control fills the brine tank;
2. it returns to service mode (Softening) for 4 hours to let the brine "cook";
(this seems excessive to me, typically Clack valves wait 2 hours)
3. An 8 minute backwash is performed;
4. Brine is drawn 'til the rank is empty and the tank's float valve closes;
(the remainder of the time is a "slow" rinse)
5. A "fast' rinse is performed;

You stated you had scheduled a visit from a technician, talk to "him/her/it' about the cycle you have observed and ask about setting up the control for "post-fill" operation--that will eliminate the 4 hour wait for the salt to fester...

 

[Kevin Craig]

If during brine draw, you pull the power, you will slow rinse for an extended time. That should rinse the IO out nicely. When you turn the power on , do another regen.

Thanks, interesting idea. But how does the slow rinse differ from the fast rinse, or from just running the water after regen is complete which would also rinse the resin? Also, how long would you recommend I leave the power off?

The softener is definitely setup for in "prefill" mode, what is happening is:

1. The control fills the brine tank;
2. it returns to service mode (Softening) for 4 hours to let the brine "cook";
(this seems excessive to me, typically Clack valves wait 2 hours)
3. An 8 minute backwash is performed;
4. Brine is drawn 'til the rank is empty and the tank's float valve closes;
(the remainder of the time is a "slow" rinse)
5. A "fast' rinse is performed;

You stated you had scheduled a visit from a technician, talk to "him/her/it' about the cycle you have observed and ask about setting up the control for "post-fill" operation--that will eliminate the 4 hour wait for the salt to fester...

Good idea, thank you

 

[Reach4]

Not only does slow rinse use water slower, the flow is more laminar (orderly). The 4 minute rinse is turbulent,

 

[Kevin Craig]

Follow up. I tried iron out again, no luck. Then Res Care Pro, no luck. Then multiple regenerations, no luck.

Then I tried regenerating with 2 cups of vinegar and the smell is completely gone. No smell and the taste is delicious.