Grounding gas line

[Taylorjm]

Hi. So I have a home built in 1995 and had natural gas. The first foot inside the house is iron, then CSST for about 20’, then iron throughout the house. I’m going to tee off the CSST to run another csst line for my attached garage and I know the gas line needs to be grounded. I don’t see an existing ground so my question is, can add a ground to any part of the iron gas line or does it need to be before the CSST? I’ve seen conflicting answers about grounding directly to a CSST fitting but I assume that’s if all you have is the CSST. It would be easier for me to ground the iron pipe that runs to the furnace back to the panel if that’s acceptable.

 

[Fitter30]

Bond all three lines since there are different brands of csst. Some have a mesh like trac pipe, some have the yellow plastic coating a maynot get a good ground. Box stores like home depot should carry the bonding clamps and the # wire and ground rod.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Taylorjm]

Bond all three lines since there are different brands of csst. Some have a mesh like trac pipe, some have the yellow plastic coating a maynot get a good ground. Box stores like home depot should carry the bonding clamps and the # wire and ground rod.

But you wouldn't put in a second ground rod, you would just bond it to the panel ground wouldn't you? I don't think you are supposed to have more than one ground source.

 

[wwhitney]

A few comments (and where the word "ground" is overloaded, I provide the contextual meaning in parentheses):

All ground (earth) electrodes present get interconnected and connected to the service neutral at the service disconnect, or upstream of it.

Metal systems that should not be carrying current get grounded (bonded). If your gas line supplies an appliance supplied by a grounded (with EGC) circuit, NEC-wise it suffices to rely on that connection to the EGC for grounding (bonding).

But often CSST has an additional grounding (bonding) requirement. In that case I would connect the specified grounding (bonding) wire to the iron pipe that is upstream (meter side) of the CSST segment. That grounding (bonding) conductor can connect to any of the locations specified in 250.104(B).

https://up.codes/viewer/michigan/nfpa-70-2017/chapter/2/wiring-and-protection#250.104_(B)

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Fitter30]

A few comments (and where the word "ground" is overloaded, I provide the contextual meaning in parentheses):

All ground (earth) electrodes present get interconnected and connected to the service neutral at the service disconnect, or upstream of it.

Metal systems that should not be carrying current get grounded (bonded). If your gas line supplies an appliance supplied by a grounded (with EGC) circuit, NEC-wise it suffices to rely on that connection to the EGC for grounding (bonding).

But often CSST has an additional grounding (bonding) requirement. In that case I would connect the specified grounding (bonding) wire to the iron pipe that is upstream (meter side) of the CSST segment. That grounding (bonding) conductor can connect to any of the locations specified in 250.104(B).

https://up.codes/viewer/michigan/nfpa-70-2017/chapter/2/wiring-and-protection#250.104_(B)

Cheers, Wayne

Would u really want the potential going through the electrical panel verses directly to a ground rod. Other problem how many ground rod connections are ever checked after install with being rained, snowed and dirt piled on them. With a bolt on clamp and the corrosion that between clamp, wire and rod.

 

[wwhitney]

Would u really want the potential going through the electrical panel verses directly to a ground rod.

The NEC requires all grounding electrodes present to be bonded together and connected to the service neutral conductor. But 250.104(B) allows a metal piping bonding conductor to go directly to one of those grounding electrodes, if you prefer.

As to ground rods, the NEC requires 8' in contact with the earth. So any 8' rod should be completely buried, including the connection to the grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper. I assume a listed direct burial ground rod clamp would hold up under the conditions it was designed for, but I've never dug one up after 10 years to check the quality of the connection.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Additional

http://csstsafety.com/Images/CSST-Direct-Bonding-Tech-Bulletin.pdf

 

[Taylorjm]

The NEC requires all grounding electrodes present to be bonded together and connected to the service neutral conductor. But 250.104(B) allows a metal piping bonding conductor to go directly to one of those grounding electrodes, if you prefer.

As to ground rods, the NEC requires 8' in contact with the earth. So any 8' rod should be completely buried, including the connection to the grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper. I assume a listed direct burial ground rod clamp would hold up under the conditions it was designed for, but I've never dug one up after 10 years to check the quality of the connection.

Cheers, Wayne

Thank you. I see according to the link provided:

"Standard CSST installed inside or attached to a building or structure shall be electrically continuous and direct bonded to the electrical ground system of the premises in which it is installed" also

"The bonding clamp attachment point may be at any location within the gas piping system. However, the shortest practical bonding wire length will improve the effectiveness of the direct-bond."

 

[WorthFlorida]

Additional

http://csstsafety.com/Images/CSST-Direct-Bonding-Tech-Bulletin.pdf

To get to the PDF file "http://csstsafety.com", then click on "CSST Safety". Great information, learn something new every day.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Hi. So I have a home built in 1995 and had natural gas. The first foot inside the house is iron, then CSST for about 20’, then iron throughout the house. I’m going to tee off the CSST to run another csst line for my attached garage and I know the gas line needs to be grounded. I don’t see an existing ground so my question is, can add a ground to any part of the iron gas line or does it need to be before the CSST? I’ve seen conflicting answers about grounding directly to a CSST fitting but I assume that’s if all you have is the CSST. It would be easier for me to ground the iron pipe that runs to the furnace back to the panel if that’s acceptable.

Another issue with the CSST is to really make sure that you buy the correct brand fittings. Even though the tubing looks similar, fittings are not interchangeable. Another safety concern is to absolutely NOT use liquid detergent to bubble test for leaks. Detergents will cause pinhole leaks in the CSST. I've found them while doing remodel work in customers homes. Some of the fittings use small keeper split rings that are easily lost.. replacing them with plumbers putty is not an acceptable option.. I've found that too.

 

[Taylorjm]

Another issue with the CSST is to really make sure that you buy the correct brand fittings. Even though the tubing looks similar, fittings are not interchangeable. Another safety concern is to absolutely NOT use liquid detergent to bubble test for leaks. Detergents will cause pinhole leaks in the CSST. I've found them while doing remodel work in customers homes. Some of the fittings use small keeper split rings that are easily lost.. replacing them with plumbers putty is not an acceptable option.. I've found that too.

Is it ok to reuse a fitting? Right now I have csst in a run that I'm going to add a tee in and need to shorten the csst, which means removing the fitting, cutting the tubing and putting the fitting back on. I have no idea what brand that is to get a new fitting. I'm going to add a black iron tee before the csst to run my new line from.

 

[wwhitney]

Is it ok to reuse a fitting?

The one brand of CSST I have used had a fiber washer in the joint that needs to be replaced every time you remake a connection. The brass parts are reuseable.

As to determining the brand, is it not printed on that yellow jacket somewhere? As a line of text, presumably on the side away from the camera.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

It looks like Ward Flex to me, but definitely double check. Ward flex fittings that I've used have re-usable brass split rings. However if you're just shortening the length by adding a nipple and a tee, then I would suggest loosening the union, removing the adapter and just using the flexibility of the CSST to absorb the extra space.. just thread the adapter back into your new tee and tighten up the union.

CSST can be difficult to cut because the cut end sometimes will fray/tear leaving an edge that can't form a proper flare connection.

A side note. That union we see next to the CSST is not approved for use in the middle of a gas system. Ground joint unions are only allowed at meters and appliance connections. The reason being that someone could accidentally loosen them by wrenching on one end of a pipe not realizing they're loosening the union. Left / Right nipples and Flanged unions are allowed.

 

[wwhitney]

It looks like Ward Flex to me, but definitely double check. Ward flex fittings that I've used have re-usable brass split rings.

WardFlex is the brand I installed ~17 years ago. At that time the fittings all used fiber washers (gaskets) along with the brass split rings. Subsequently they came out with the "Step Saver" fittings that use a different secondary seal and don't require the fiber washers. Not sure how to distinguish the fittings, as I've not used their "Step Saver" fittings.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Taylorjm]

It looks like Ward Flex to me, but definitely double check. Ward flex fittings that I've used have re-usable brass split rings. However if you're just shortening the length by adding a nipple and a tee, then I would suggest loosening the union, removing the adapter and just using the flexibility of the CSST to absorb the extra space.. just thread the adapter back into your new tee and tighten up the union.

CSST can be difficult to cut because the cut end sometimes will fray/tear leaving an edge that can't form a proper flare connection.

A side note. That union we see next to the CSST is not approved for use in the middle of a gas system. Ground joint unions are only allowed at meters and appliance connections. The reason being that someone could accidentally loosen them by wrenching on one end of a pipe not realizing they're loosening the union. Left / Right nipples and Flanged unions are allowed.

Thanks. Even if I disconnect the union I still need to disconnect the csst line so not sure why would be accomplished by doing that. I still need to break the seal on the csst and disconnect it. As for the location of the union, all I can say is that was how it was installed when the home was built.

 

[wwhitney]

As far as the union goes, it's a deficiency (code violation) that you should remedy while you're in there.

And if you do that, you have the following option to avoid breaking the existing CSST male adapter. Not 100% sure that all these details are practical to execute or optimal as far as minimizing overall difficulty:

Undo the union. Cut through the body of the tee. Unscrew the tee halves from each side, the galvanized (?) and the CSST. If the galvanized is your supply, add a small manifold. You can do that with a series of tees and short nipples, with a plug in the end of the last tee for future expansion. Then you need to reconnect your existing CSST, the other side of the union, and your new fixture run in CSST. For the two existing lines, you could do that with left/right nipples, or you could use short runs of CSST, taking advantage of the ability to make up a CSST connection without rotating either side.

Of course, if you do open up your existing CSST male adapter, and either replace it or reuse it (with a new gasket if required), then you'd end up with two less fittings, so maybe that's a better result.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Taylorjm]

As far as the union goes, it's a deficiency (code violation) that you should remedy while you're in there.

And if you do that, you have the following option to avoid breaking the existing CSST male adapter. Not 100% sure that all these details are practical to execute or optimal as far as minimizing overall difficulty:

Undo the union. Cut through the body of the tee. Unscrew the tee halves from each side, the galvanized (?) and the CSST. If the galvanized is your supply, add a small manifold. You can do that with a series of tees and short nipples, with a plug in the end of the last tee for future expansion. Then you need to reconnect your existing CSST, the other side of the union, and your new fixture run in CSST. For the two existing lines, you could do that with left/right nipples, or you could use short runs of CSST, taking advantage of the ability to make up a CSST connection without rotating either side.

Of course, if you do open up your existing CSST male adapter, and either replace it or reuse it (with a new gasket if required), then you'd end up with two less fittings, so maybe that's a better result.

Cheers, Wayne

I understand the idea of why a union shouldn’t be there but with the length of the pipe with the union, and the direction it’s in, you couldn’t inadvertently twist that union anymore than you could with a solid nipple and cause a leak. It’s hard to see but the line that goes up from the tee, to the union immediately makes a 90 away from the picture to the furnace. The csst is actually the supply side. Also, the way you mentioned still won’t solve the problem of having to disassemble the csst fitting. No matter what, that csst fitting will have to come off the csst pipe and be reassembled.

 

[wwhitney]

I understand the idea of why a union shouldn’t be there but with the length of the pipe with the union, and the direction it’s in, you couldn’t inadvertently twist that union anymore than you could with a solid nipple and cause a leak.

I'm not sure what the reason for the prohibition is (that was Tuttle's explanation), I just know it is prohibited, so if working in that area, I would never leave it.

Also, the way you mentioned still won’t solve the problem of having to disassemble the csst fitting. No matter what, that csst fitting will have to come off the csst pipe and be reassembled.

Sure it would. If the union's disconnected, and you cut the tee in half, then you can unscrew the remnant of the tee from the male threads of the CSST connector. Since the CSST is the supply, you could even make up your manifold and thread it onto the male threads of the CSST connector as the first manifold connection (spinning the whole manifold). No need to break the existing CSST termination.

Whether that's a priority or not is another question.

Cheers, Wayne