Do I need to lower my Toilet Flange? Toto resting on the flange

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Charlie Bosco

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I am assuming it needs to get lowered but I want to hear the experts here before I cut anything. Sorry I posted before but I am starting a new thread since I need immediate help here.. Installing a new Toto Ultramax II. I cleaned the existing flange all. The bathroom is Mexican Tile so very uneven. As I understand it.. the flange sits on top of the tile. I am guessing the thickness of my current flange is about 3/8. So I should have a max off the floor of about 3/8" ??

When I test fit my toilet it sits on top of the flange and all the edges are off the floor. So can I assume I need to cut this flange off and get one that I can insert down the inside of. Hoping to use a 4 in. PVC Twist-N-Set Open Toilet Flange

My Current flange is an OATEY 43503 that fits 3 or 4 in. This one is inside the drain pipe. I am confused on the measurements.
It appears by the photo, the pipe the flange is inserted in is 4"?? Let me know if I need to cut this flange out.. I will get on that slides in. So the big question.. New Flange resting flat on the tile floor? Also the photo shows a crack in the flange as well.


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Reach4

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I would, but you could use shims and let the toilet sit higher.

Your previous thread was https://terrylove.com/forums/index....wer-toilet-flange-which-reamer-is-best.99852/ I like my suggestions on that thread. Is that a crack in the bowl of your old flange. or a pencil mark?

Did you decide your hole in the old glued flange is 3.5 inches ID, as I expect? A 4-inch twist-n-set would not fit that hole in the old flange, but I think would if you removed the flange. But even then, I suspect your pipe is tilted, and the new flange would tilt if I am right. The length of a standard credit card is 3.37 inches, which could also be a useful gauge.
 

Charlie Bosco

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I would, but you could use shims and let the toilet sit higher.

Your previous thread was https://terrylove.com/forums/index....wer-toilet-flange-which-reamer-is-best.99852/ I like my suggestions on that thread. Is that a crack in the bowl of your old flange. or a pencil mark?

Did you decide your hole in the old glued flange is 3.5 inches ID, as I expect? A 4-inch twist-n-set would not fit that hole in the old flange, but I think would if you removed the flange. But even then, I suspect your pipe is tilted, and the new flange would tilt if I am right. The length of a standard credit card is 3.37 inches, which could also be a useful gauge.
I hate the idea of shims with the exception of leveling the toilet. I did not actually measure the inside of the main pipe but I am 99.9% sure its 4 inch.. I measured the flange again after it was cleaned and measured 3.5 in inside. Since the walls are approx 1/4" that makes a 4" pipe its slipped into. Plus my flange is a 3"or4" 3" Outside the pipe and 4"inside the pipe

Gonna pull it and use the twist and set.. :)

oatey-twist-n-set-terrylove-1.jpg


3" ABS, they also make them in 4"
 

Reach4

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Ah... I was not clear that you were going to pull the old flange. Some use heat to make pulling the PVC apart easier. If chipping away works well, then great.

In that case, while you could use the flange you named, but I would prefer the PushTite that I named, because it will be able to adjust to a slight tilt in the riser pipe.

I am thinking that if the riser were plumb, then the glued-in flange would not have been tilted.

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Charlie Bosco

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Ah... I was not clear that you were going to pull the old flange. Some use heat to make pulling the PVC apart easier. If chipping away works well, then great.

In that case, while you could use the flange you named, but I would prefer the PushTite that I named, because it will be able to adjust to a slight tilt in the riser pipe.

I am thinking that if the riser were plumb, then the glued-in flange would not have been tilted
I am hoping based on the shoddy way the flange was put in that they did not cut the riser level. Why bother to put a level on the flange when you are planning the just pour a ton of grout under the toilet. A plumber who did this job should be fired. A homeowner who did this should have his hands cut off.. LMAO..
 

Charlie Bosco

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Ok so the removal went easier than I expected. Bought an inside pipe saw bit and used it to cut the flange off just below the taper.
So I have to tell you the stupid thing I did. All I wanted to do was test the bit. Started cutting great then the bit slipped out of the chuck and right down the pipe. I could not even see the bit cause it hit the elbow at the bottom and continued for a few inches. I was like you are an idiot! So I got a coat hanger and put a super strong magnet on it and snaked it in there. Luckily I snagged it on the first try. Then promptly stuffed a rag in the pipe.
So once the flange was off the remaining sleeve was pretty short about an 1" I used a hack saw blade handle to cut vertical slots every inch or so. Couple of taps on a flat blade screwdriver popped the pieces out easily.

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Charlie Bosco

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Ok, looks like I still need to go lower.. Since the Floor is really thick Mexican tile, even when the flange is resting solid on the floor there is still spaces under it.

Couple of questions so I get the final install dead perfect.

I decided to try the Danco Perfect Seal. I have seen reviews where people say they removed the hard black plastic horn to get it to seat lower.. That horn should never get in the way of seating.. Its opening would push all the way into the flange.. At least my flange for sure with plenty of space around it. The bottom of the toilet will push that into the wax ring that is under it and compress just like any other wax ring.

In this photo I notice the bottom of the Toto does not actually enter the seal as much as it rests more concave. My question is this. The porcelain on the bottom spout is not coated and feels rough like sandpaper. Any harm in wiping that portion down with some wax seal to make it snug into the seal more securely?

Seal.jpg


Here are photos of the flange resting in the floor. As you can see, It still looks high to compress that new seal. I am really leaning towards lowering the flange to be either level or maybe just a 1/4" above the floor. I drew a line around the flange to show how much tile I'd have to remove to allow it to drop. Once I do that, I can make it any height I want. Then fill the rough space under it with a little concrete to make it clean. Unless there is a spacer that I can slide the new flange into that will keep it securely at the height I want it. The Mexican tile is slightly thicker than the flange.

Floor.jpg
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Jeff H Young

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Its not too bad when you have the right stuff. we are supposed to use those holes too sometimes the plastic is locked in concrete and sometimes its heavily wrapped in cardboard or plastic before concrete and it really needs securing to floor
 

wwhitney

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I believe the consensus here is that flanges with metal rings are better. They are also thinner so might address your height issue. The ring needs to be well supported and screwed down.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Terry

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The flange can rest on the tile you have, and then be secured after drilling holes through the tile into the concrete below.
Is that a section of PVC pipe that has been cut off?
It might be good to use a replacement flange that fits inside the pipe that you have there. I trim them as short as they need to be.
 

Reach4

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A Twist-N-set flange has the advantage that if the plastic ring were to fail, it is not glued in. So should make for easier replacement. I am glad to see that the new flange is not tilted.

If your inside pipe was good enough, Sioux Chief 887-GPM would be another no-glue choice, and it has a thinner stainless ring.

If you fill the space below, use mortar mix rather than concrete mix. Concrete mix has rocks. The aggregate rocks might not cause a problem, but they might make for harder drilling.

Using some wax or Molykote 111 on top of the rubber would not be a problem, and could offer some advantage.

Danco Perfect Seal says it should be ok with the flange top as much as 1/2 inch above the floor level.
 

Charlie Bosco

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The flange can rest on the tile you have, and then be secured after drilling holes through the tile into the concrete below.
Is that a section of PVC pipe that has been cut off?
It might be good to use a replacement flange that fits inside the pipe that you have there. I trim them as short as they need to be.
Thanks Terry.. My last post a few back shows where I am with this. Bunch of new pics. I already removed the old flange and doing a test fit level with the floor. It still seems high. I already have an Oatey Twist and Set to make this an easy fix. Also I have the Oatey Perfect seal

The Mexican tile is about 3/4" thick resting on concrete. I am thinking if I just remove some of the 3/4" tile (easy) from where I drew the line, I can then adjust and drop the flange to any optimal height I dont want to fight with the Perfect Seal trying to get the toilet to rest solidly on the floor.

The flange already measures 1/2" and the plate that the Perfect Seal is attached to is about 1/8". Dropping the flange to the concrete below the Mexican tile would leave the flange about 1/8" of inch lower than the floor. At that point the Perfect seal has an additional piece that comes with it.. I rather go through the work and lower it more and get it done for sure.. than try it and fail, only to have to remove the ruined seal and do it again lower..


Oh and your thought on greasing the unfinished porcelain exit on the toilet to more smoothly mate with the rubber compression gasket. Any harm in that?

What are your thoughts?
 

Charlie Bosco

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A Twist-N-set flange has the advantage that if the plastic ring were to fail, it is not glued in. So should make for easier replacement. I am glad to see that the new flange is not tilted.

If your inside pipe was good enough, Sioux Chief 887-GPM would be another no-glue choice, and it has a thinner stainless ring.

If you fill the space below, use mortar mix rather than concrete mix. Concrete mix has rocks. The aggregate rocks might not cause a problem, but they might make for harder drilling.

Using some wax or Molykote 111 on top of the rubber would not be a problem, and could offer some advantage.

Danco Perfect Seal says it should be ok with the flange top as much as 1/2 inch above the floor level.
Yeah I have gotten this far and all that stands in the way is deciding to chip out the minor areas of clay tile to just drop the flange to the concrete.. Based on the 1/2" Flange and the 1/8" mounting plate for the seal that puts me 1/8" below the surface.. The Perfect seal has the additional piece if I need it. Sort of my safety net for too low..

I have read that the Danco is good at 1/2" But there are some reviews on Home Depot and Amazon that conflict with that. Could just be they were idiots or fake reviews.. But if it does not work out I still have to scrape wax off to remove it..

Rather than leaving the height and finding the seal wont compress enough for the toilet to rest hard on the floor.

The latter of the 2 is a gamble.. But this clay tile can be chipped out easily.. probably 15 minutes if I really want to be a stone carver lol

Or am I overthinking this and just screw it down and drop the toilet on it..
 
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Reach4

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You are not overthinking it. If you were charging by the hour you would be expensive, however.
 

Charlie Bosco

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You are not overthinking it. If you were charging by the hour you would be expensive, however.
LMAO.. I just said to my wife, if I was paid for this job it would be $5,000.

I am also thinking now. Just return the other seal and just put the effing wax seal and drop it.. Just too much planning to accommodate the "perfect seal". I already know the flange fits under it at this point. I've set enough toilets in my life to get this right on the first drop. I just really hate messy wax rings.
 

Reach4

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Before wax, check for rocking. If rocking, place shims. Lift toilet. Drop wax. Drop toilet.
 

Charlie Bosco

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Before wax, check for rocking. If rocking, place shims. Lift toilet. Drop wax. Drop toilet.
Thank you again.. Its final.. Leaving the flange where it is and going wax. I'll be long dead before I need to Pull the Toto..
I did a total dry fit to test and the toilet on the flange. There is no contact with the flange so I feel much better with the wax molding to every little space vs fighting with in-compressible rubber. I just need one shim on the back left to keep it solid on the floor without rocking.

Also since the grout on my Mexican tile is more or less gray mortar.. I plan to use that under the toilet edges for a really solid finish. There is very little space.. just the imperfections of the clay tile

Even have a set of those fancy adjustable closet bolts. I just need to get some bigger tapcons tomorrow to hold the flange and I'll have a fresh new pooper tomorrow night.. LOL :)
 

Charlie Bosco

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Before wax, check for rocking. If rocking, place shims. Lift toilet. Drop wax. Drop toilet.
You are not overthinking it. If you were charging by the hour you would be expensive, however.
Finally got to experience my inaugural flush thank you again for the advice.

Tapcon the flange down Dropped the wax ring and set the toilet.

The wax ring in the photo is not misaligned. I shot the photo from an angle. I used painters tape to mark the exact toilet position. And also hold down the rear shims while I set it. Yeah a bit anal but the less I prepare for the more I attract Murphy's law.

Still have more to do on the remodel. Next up replace the door, baseboard trim and tongue and groove ceiling.
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