Diagnosing water softener issue

[calr0x]

I have an issue where, for a given efficient setting, my softener consistently stops producing soft water until the next regen. Having a 2.5 cu ft unit running 10 lbs/per cu ft. (25lbs per regen total) at 65,000 grain capacity, it stops producing soft water with around 300 gallons of capacity remaining. When I should be getting ~ 1,250 gallons I'm only getting ~ 950. Once I even added 3 more minutes of BF and still ended up with hard water with ~ 250 gallons remaining.

No matter what setting I set it to, there is a proportionate point where the unit stops producing hard water. I've had the water tested 3 different ways (NTL/local county/Hach 5b) and all produce the same result for hardness.

There is an iron filter present and the water tests were AFTER the iron filter so the tests represent the water that's entering the softener.

The only way I've gotten it to stop producing hard water is to set the unit to 74 grains hardness which just "cuts out" the area where the unit would naturally begin producing hard water which significantly eats well into my capacity, causing the unit to regen 25% more as a result. It's not a fix but it keeps the unit from passing hard water.

Basically, is there ANY idea why it's not anywhere close to the capacity it should have? I have to increase the hardness setting by 30% just to get it to not start making hard water which is killing my salt usage.

Thank you so much everyone!

System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft = 10 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC = 0.5 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
DLFC = 4 ; Drain (backwash and RR rate GPM)
cubic ft resin = 2.5 ; ft3 resin (each tank)
Hardness = 52
Estimated gal/day = 200

Fleck 5600SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = dF1b ; Downflw/Upflw, Single Backwash
CT = Fd ; FI=Meter Immediate,Fd=Delayed regen
NT = 1 ; Number of tanks
C = 65 ; capacity in 1000 grains per tank
H = 52 ; Hardness
RC = 200 ; Can use 0 for no reserve
DO = 14 ; Day Override (shorter with iron)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time matters after DO days or CT=Fd
BW = 10 ; Backwash (minutes)
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
RR = 12 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 17 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = t0.7 ; flow meter

Water Results:

Aluminum ND mg/L 0.2 EPA Secondary 0.1
Arsenic ND mg/L 0.010 EPA Primary 0.005
Barium ND mg/L 2 EPA Primary 0.30
Cadmium ND mg/L 0.005 EPA Primary 0.002
Calcium 181.6 mg/L -- 2.0
Chromium ND mg/L 0.1 EPA Primary 0.010
Copper 0.015 mg/L 1.3 EPA Action Level 0.004
Iron ND mg/L 0.3 EPA Secondary 0.020
Lead ND mg/L 0.015 EPA Action Level 0.004
Lithium 0.017 mg/L -- 0.001
Magnesium 107.39 mg/L -- 0.10
Manganese 0.032 mg/L 0.05 EPA Secondary 0.004
Mercury ND mg/L 0.002 EPA Primary 0.001
Nickel ND mg/L -- 0.020
Potassium 3.2 mg/L -- 1.0
Selenium ND mg/L 0.05 EPA Primary 0.020
Silica 12.8 mg/L -- 0.1
Silver ND mg/L 0.100 EPA Secondary 0.002
Sodium 143 mg/L -- 1
Strontium 4.377 mg/L -- 0.001
Uranium ND mg/L 0.030 EPA Primary 0.002
Zinc 0.004 mg/L 5 EPA Secondary 0.004

Alkalinity (Total as CaCO3) 80 mg/L -- 20
Hardness 890 mg/L 100 NTL Internal 10
pH 7.5 pH Units 6.5 to 8.5 EPA Secondary
Total Dissolved Solids 1500 mg/L 500 EPA Secondary 20
Turbidity ND NTU 1.0 EPA Action Level 0.1

Bromide ND mg/L -- 0.5
Chloride 6.6 mg/L 250 EPA Secondary 5.0
Fluoride 0.6 mg/L 4.0 EPA Primary 0.5
Nitrate as N ND mg/L 10 EPA Primary 0.5
Nitrite as N ND mg/L 1 EPA Primary 0.5
Ortho Phosphate ND mg/L -- 2.0
Sulfate 1000.0 mg/L 250 EPA Secondary 5.0

 

[Reach4]

The only way I've gotten it to stop producing hard water is to set the unit to 74 grains hardness which just "cuts out" the area where the unit would naturally begin producing hard water which significantly eats well into my capacity, causing the unit to regen 25% more as a result. It's not a fix but it keeps the unit from passing hard water.

First, confirm that you have a turbine, and not a paddlewheel.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/img_1-png.31589/ If you had a paddlewheel, I would expect the effect you observe to be greater.

Next thing to check is to make sure your BLFC is 0.5 . One way to do that is to measure how long (in seconds) it takes to fill a 1 gallon container during BF if you re-route the drain line to a bucket temporarily.

Alternately , look at the molded BLFC numbers, and see if there is the expected 50. If yours says 25 (0.25 gpm), you would be adding less water than you think. That is unlikely to be the case.

Assuming that is confirmed, then your step of increasing H to compensate is right. You may need some compensation due to iron and/or manganese. For sure you need high-hardness compensation.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

Your 2.5 ft3 of resin had an initial softening capacity of 80K grains. Although some amount of capacity has no doubt been lost as broken and worn resin granules will be flushed to drain during backwashing, there remains considerable additional potential capacity beyond the 65K grains you are using and regenerating with 25.5 lbs salt each cycle.

Softening utilizes a process called ion exchange to remove calcium, magnesium and other ions from the water, to replace them with sodium ions. This is not an immediate process but requires the water to have sufficient contact time with active (regenerated) resin for the process to occur. As the amount of capacity remaining declines during use, the amount of hardness leakage will gradually increase, especially at a higher flow rate since any 'spent' resin no longer provides any hardness reduction capacity.

All of the 80K capacity(2.5 ft3) works together to remove hardness and to reduce hardness leakage through the resin bed. Your 65K capacity setting only limits the amount to be consumed before regeneration occurs, leaving approx 15K grains remaining.

Because your resin's capacity has been exhausted, that ~15K additional resin capacity was not regenerated with 25.5 lbs salt, so it is not assisting to remove hardness. When regeneration is nearing and the 65K is almost exhausted, the additional capacity that should be remaining is not present so the hardness leakage becomes so high so as to feel there is no softening even as regeneration is not yet due to occur.

A 1X regeneration cycle using 50 lbs salt will restore all 80K capacity. An easy method to restore all potential capacity would be to perform 2 manual regenerations with your current 25.5 lb salt setting, the second directly following the 1st with no water usage in between. After the brine tank refills after the 1st cycle, wait 1-1.5 hours to allow sufficient salt to dissolve before initiating the 2nd cycle.

This process should be performed in addition to the high hardness setting adjustments specified by Reack4.

 

[ditttohead]

Softeners are cation exchange so hardness is only part of the capacity measurement, this is why we use compensated hardness. I don't have my chart with me but I believe at 70 GPG you would add 30-40% of the hardness to the actual hardness setting in the valve. Also, resin definitely loses capacity over time. Consider it similar to a li-po battery, When it is new it will have more capacity, as it ages it will lose some of its total capacity. In commercial applications we consider 10% loss of capacity per year to be an acceptable number. Residentially is obviously different due to the lower usage, but some calculable loss still applies.

 

[Reach4]

I don't have my chart with me

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....0-sxt-programming-settings.60651/#post-450189

 

[ditttohead]

LOL, you guys are amazing! Honestly, I have been working 14 hour days trying to keep up with the orders... I was too tired/lazy to look for my chart. Thanks so much!!! I sincerely mean this. After these long work days I get home and have a couple hours of homework with my daughters... private schools apparently are not taking this time to give the kids a little break.

Take your hardness ant multiply by the compensation factor below... Thanks so much Reach!
1 - 20 gpg
1.1

21 - 40 gpg
1.2

41 - 70 gpg
1.3

71 - 100 gpg
1.4

100+ gpg
1.5

 

[calr0x]

Thank you for all the help so far!

The unit is brand new and was installed in early December!

Still have to check the flow rate as well.

For compensated hardness, what is being factored in to add an additional 30% of hardness to the value?

The info about regenerating with 50lbs of salt twice makes sense. Is that extra salt not rinsed away with the next normal regen and remains in the unit?

 

[Reach4]

Change H =69. That is derived from your empirical data. That take into account all factors compensation. If that does not work for you, we can re-visit. [revised:] You reported lack of softness after using 950 gallons. The display would have said about 100 at that point since it started at 1050. If your softness was already bad after using 825 gallons (225 on the display), but you did not notice until 100 on the display, we would use H=79.


Leave the C and BF unchanged.

If the display does not show less gallons remaining after the change to C, then regenerate and start over. Let us know what the gallon countdown on the display shows before and after the change.

If you wanted to reduce the BF, which I would probably do, I could forecast a needed adjustment. But in any case, if you give the same kind of data for new settings (hard after xxx gallons), I could compute a revised H. No heavy or clever math is involved however.

Calculations based on actual hardness and compensation factors are most useful and important for selecting equipment and initial settings. A gross discrepancy between the calculations and the softening results can point out hardware problems to be addressed. But adjusting based on actual results of a working system is going to be very appropriate. The compensation factors would be way to complex to totally predict. This empirical adjustment is good, IMO.

 

[Bannerman]

Is that extra salt not rinsed away with the next normal regen and remains in the unit?

While Sodium Chloride (salt) is added to the brine tank to combine with water to create brine, the softening resin only utilizes the sodium ions from the brine to regenerate softening capacity. No salt remains in the resin tank as the chloride portion and excess sodium is flushed to drain. When softening is occurring, calcium and magnesium ions from the hard water adhere to the resin granules, which then causes sodium ions adhering to the resin, to be released into the water which is then soft.

To regenerate all of the 2.5 ft3 resin's 80.000 grains capacity requires 50 lbs salt, but your regular salt amount to regenerate 65,000 grains is only 25.5 lbs. Because the resin's total 80K grains capacity has been exhausted, that additional capacity above the 65K you are regularly consuming and regenerating will offer no benefit unless also regenerated.

Here is a link to a chart which indicates various Capacity settings and the salt amounts needed to regenerate those capacities. Follow the left column down to 2.5 ft3 and scan right. You will see 65.000 in the column below 10 lbs salt per ft3 resin which is your current settings. Hardness removal efficiency is specified for each salt amount at the bottom of each column. After restoring the resin's total capacity, you may wish to increase efficiency by reducing the programmed Capacity to 60K grains which would require only 8 lbs/ft3 (20 lbs total), rasing efficiency to 3,000 grains per lb of salt.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/resin-chart-jpg.53316/

 

[calr0x]

Side question: I have an 18" D x 33" H brine tank. Can that hold enough water to allow a 20lb per cu ft. salt amount? My math says 17 gallons but at a 17 minute setting (8-1/2 gallons) the tank is already decently full.

Also, how far from the top should the overflow tube be installed at? Mine is 10-1/4" from the tank edge which seems low to me.

Thanks all!

 

[ditttohead]

Here is a chart. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/132-133

20 pounds per cubic foot? Are you running a steam turbine generator?

 

[Bannerman]

The amount of salt recommended in post #9 is 20 lbs total to regenerate 60K grains capacity. That is 8 lbs per cubic foot of resin.

20 lbs per cubic foot is extremely inefficient and not recommended unless a 1X regeneration is needed after the resin's total capacity has been exhausted by using insufficient salt for the amount of capacity to be regenerated.

 

[ditttohead]

Or if you are running a Steam Turbine generator.

 

[calr0x]

The amount of salt recommended in post #9 is 20 lbs total to regenerate 60K grains capacity. That is 8 lbs per cubic foot of resin.

20 lbs per cubic foot is extremely inefficient and not recommended unless a 1X regeneration is needed after the resin's total capacity has been exhausted by using insufficient salt for the amount of capacity to be regenerated.

This is exactly it. I'm going to fully regenerate before setting the 8lbs efficiency setting.

I'm having trouble interpreting the linked chart for brine tank capacities. Can anyone offer help understanding what the chart is telling me?

Thanks all!

 

[Bannerman]

Your 18" X 33" brine tank is listed in the left-most column. Following that line right shows every 1 inch of brine height will contain 1.2 lbs of salt when there is no salt grid, or 2.9 lbs when there is a salt grid. A salt grid elevates the salt above the bottom of the tank so the brine at the bottom will not be as displaced by salt and will therefore, contain a higher concentration of salt per inch.

Moving farther right indicates your 18" X 33" tank will be suitable for a softener containing up to 3 ft3 of resin when the salt setting chosen is to be 6 lbs/ft3, but only a 2 ft3 unit if the chosen salt setting is to be 10 lbs/ft3, or 1.5 ft3 when 15 lbs/ft3 is chosen.

That same size brine tank will support a larger softener if a salt grid is utilized.

 

[calr0x]

Your 18" X 33" brine tank is listed in the left-most column. Following that line right shows every 1 inch of brine height will contain 1.2 lbs of salt when there is no salt grid, or 2.9 lbs when there is a salt grid. A salt grid elevates the salt above the bottom of the tank so the brine at the bottom will not be as displaced by salt and will therefore, contain a higher concentration of salt per inch.

Moving farther right indicates your 18" X 33" tank will be suitable for a softener containing up to 3 ft3 of resin when the salt setting chosen is to be 6 lbs/ft3, but only a 2 ft3 unit if the chosen salt setting is to be 10 lbs/ft3, or 1.5 ft3 when 15 lbs/ft3 is chosen.

That same size brine tank will support a larger softener if a salt grid is utilized.

Thank you! So my understanding is this tank will not support my unit being set to 50 lbs per regen (20lbs per cu. ft) even with a grid. Is that correct?

 

[Bannerman]

Correct, so to perform a 1X restorative cycle using 50 lbs salt, perform 2 manual regen cycles using 25 lbs each, one directly after the other. After the 1st cycle concludes, wait 1-1.5 hrs before initiating the 2nd to allow sufficient salt to dissolve for the 2nd cycle.

If the 1st cycle is performed after dinner, the 2nd could be started just before you depart for the night.

 

[calr0x]

Correct, so to perform a 1X restorative cycle using 50 lbs salt, perform 2 manual regen cycles using 25 lbs each, one directly after the other. After the 1st cycle concludes, wait 1-1.5 hrs before initiating the 2nd to allow sufficient salt to dissolve for the 2nd cycle.

If the 1st cycle is performed after dinner, the 2nd could be started just before you depart for the night.

Bannerman, I appreciate a great deal the help. Would you be interested in talking on the phone to discuss some aspects of my situation. I would pay you for your time before we began. I am really struggling to find people near me as informed as you, and these forums, have been.

Let me know!

 

[ditttohead]

I believe you are overthinking it. Just run the system through 2 regens and call it a day.

 

[Reach4]

Thank you! So my understanding is this tank will not support my unit being set to 50 lbs per regen (20lbs per cu. ft) even with a grid. Is that correct?

To accomplish as close to the 50 pound super brining you are intending, I would ...

Pour water in with a bucket -- as much as you can to the overflow but not higher, and not more than (50/3=16-2/3 gallons)minus the number of gallons that you reckon you figure were already in the tank. Let it sit for an hour or two. Do a regen. Then do another regen with the settings you intend to use. The main reason for the second regen is to flush out the remainder of the salt from the big-salt regen.

This allows you to avoid having to change the settings for a one-time super-brining.