CSV “Typical Applications” & Well depth questions

[DIYLawnGuyMD]

I am planning a lawn sprinkler system with my existing well, and wanted to prevent cycling of my pump while watering the lawn, so based on research here I went ahead and ordered a CSV kit (PK1A with 10 gallon pressure tank, 45/65 pressure switch with 55 psi constant setting).

The kit arrived today, I guess I’m getting “cold feet” and I just want to make sure that my current well pump setup will work with the CSV I ordered before I install it.

I have attached a copy of my well completion report from December 2003, when the well was drilled (relevant portion attached). A previous owner had the current well installed, so I have limited records, and don’t know the make/model of the submersible pump. I do see in the well report that the driller’s notes say they installed a 5gpm 3/4 hp pump at that time.

Recently (a week or so ago) I performed a 1 hour long flow test from the spigot at the bottom of my current pressure tank and observed steady flow of 11gpm at 50 PSI, and about 12.5gpm at 43PSI. This is consistent with the flow test that done when we purchased the house in November of 2019. As an aside, these flow rates seem to conflict with the pump rating shown on the well completion report, which confuses me a bit. Water was crystal clear for the whole hour with no signs of the flow slowing down during the tests.

My current setup is pretty standard, looks like 1” poly pipe coming in from the basement wall, into 1” pvc, then into a blue 86 gallon pressure tank and then into my filters and conditioning equipment.

Based on the flow tests I am designing my irrigation system for 50 psi and 11gpm.

With all that said, I’m having trouble interpreting the Compatible Pumps/well water depth charts from the Cycle Stop Valves “Typical Applications” webpage at https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/pk1a-pside-kick-typical-applications (image of the chart attached).

Before I take the plunge and install the CSV, I was hoping to get some input from the pros here as to whether or not the CSV I ordered will function properly and safely given the attached info from my well completion report and the above background.

Any input or recommendations will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Well report:
CSV Depth Charts

 

[Reach4]

Before I take the plunge and install the CSV, I was hoping to get some input from the pros here as to whether or not the CSV I ordered will function properly and safely given the attached info from my well completion report and the above background.

Any input or recommendations will be greatly appreciated.

What that well completion report is showing is what the flow was from the test pump. That 3/4 hp 5 gpm tes pump was limiting the flow, but your current pump is a higher gpm pump. What is your pump? 1/2 HP 10 gpm, or what?

I see nothing to be concerned about. What are your concerns?

The flow rate during your irrigation will be determined by the nozzles on your irrigation system. If you choose nozzles that emit a total of 10 gpm or less, it looks like you would not run the well dry.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[DIYLawnGuyMD]

What that well completion report is showing is what the flow was from the test pump. That 3/4 hp 5 gpm tes pump was limiting the flow, but your current pump is a higher gpm pump. What is your pump? 1/2 HP 10 gpm, or what?

I see nothing to be concerned about. What are your concerns?

I don’t know what kind of pump I have beyond the “installed” pump info from my completion report and the results of my testing. I have not changed the pump since we bought the house in 2019, but it seems to me based on my flow tests that there is a different pump currently installed than the one noted in my report. I’m not sure how to find out what my current submersible pump specs are without physically pulling it out of the well, which obviously I don’t want to do as I’m trying to keep this DIY.

I think my main concerns are as follows:

1) I’m not sure how to translate the well water levels (~85ft static and ~139 ft steady while pumping) from my completion report to determine if they are compatible with the CSV I want to install.

2) How much can/should I rely on the well completion report info from late 2003?

3) I want to make sure I’m not missing something important, such as something about my setup that might cause too much back pressure with the CSV and either blow my pump or my well supply line. Edit: For example, it looks like my well is very deep, but I am unfamiliar with the terminology in the report, so I’m not sure how deep my well pump is set, and I have seen prior threads here where posters were saying deep wells could cause too much back pressure with the CSV.

 

[Reach4]

but it seems to me based on my flow tests that there is a different pump currently installed than the one noted in my report.

After looking again, I think the pump may have been the same one used in the test. The pump installed box says the pump is a 5 gpm 3/4 HP pump installed 380 down.

I’m not sure how to translate the well water levels (~85ft static and ~139 ft steady while pumping) from my completion report to determine if they are compatible with the CSV I want to install.

That is a measure of how much the water level dropped after pumping 10.34 gpm for 3 hours.

The thing that could make your pump incompatible with the CSV is that the pump can generates 200 psi (roughly the right number) at the surface while throttled to 1 gpm.

The first pump below (Goulds 5GS07) would be such a pump.

Your static level is 85 ft. If I look at the Shut-Off PSI at 80 ft of 175 psi, and at 100 ft of 167, your shut-of psi would be between those two. At 1 gpm, the pressure would be lower still. So below 200 psi, so I think you should be good. It was close enough that it was worth checking.

The way I got 200 was 150 max across CSV, plus 50 for the CSV setting.

After looking at the numbers, I think the 5 gpm 3.4 HP pump was a good choice. Your water comes in above the pump, making it "top feeding". It would be better to have a flow inducer on your pump.

Another thought would be if you should have maybe an 8 gpm dole valve in line to avoid upthrust. Not sure. That would be to limit the flow when the pump turns on. I would choose your sprinkler nozzles to total less than 7 gpm. So I might put 8 as a max, and 6 as a target, but I am not sure that is good info.

 

[DIYLawnGuyMD]

After looking again, I think the pump may have been the same one used in the test. The pump installed box says the pump is a 5 gpm 3/4 HP pump installed 380 down.

Another thought would be if you should have maybe an 8 gpm dole valve in line to avoid upthrust. Not sure. That would be to limit the flow when the pump turns on. I would choose your sprinkler nozzles to total less than 7 gpm. So I might put 8 as a max, and 6 as a target, but I am not sure that is good info.

I appreciate you taking time to do some analysis and provide your input, so thanks. Please excuse all my rookie questions - this is my first house with a well, so I’m not experienced with all of this stuff.

How am I getting 11-12gpm in actual flow testing when the pump is purportedly a 5gpm pump? Is this because of the depth it is set at?

So even though my testing is showing 11 gpm you are recommending I restrict the flow to 8gpm? Is this to avoid going over the pressure limits of the CSV?

 

[Reach4]

How am I getting 11-12gpm in actual flow testing when the pump is purportedly a 5gpm pump? Is this because of the depth it is set at?

For normal pumps, the 5 gpm rating is approximately the flow at which the pump is most efficient.

Look at a pump curve, with head (in feet) vertically, and gpm horizontally. If you are running near zero head, you will see the flow is much higher than the nominal pump size.

Do you understand the tables above? At 120 ft of head and 40 psi, the pump is expected to put out 7.4 gpm. Your test is more like 80 ft and 40 psi. They did not fill in a number, but the graph would have the number.

Not all 5 gpm 3/4 hp pumps have the same curves, but probably pretty close.

 

[DIYLawnGuyMD]

For normal pumps, the 5 gpm rating is approximately the flow at which the pump is most efficient.

Look at a pump curve, with head (in feet) vertically, and gpm horizontally. If you are running near zero head, you will see the flow is much higher than the nominal pump size.

Do you understand the tables above? At 120 ft of head and 40 psi, the pump is expected to put out 7.4 gpm. Your test is more like 80 ft and 40 psi. They did not fill in a number, but the graph would have the number.

Not all 5 gpm 3/4 hp pumps have the same curves, but probably pretty close.

Ok, yes I am following on the way the table reads, but not sure I understand all the implications to my intended set up.

From what you’re saying regarding gpm, the implication I’m getting from my 11gpm flow during my test is that my well water level must have been very high, giving the pump a boost from the extra water pressure sitting above it. Am I understanding that correctly?

If that is correct and I have a steady 10-11gpm recovery rate in the well, what would be at risk by running the sprinklers at a 10-11gpm? Too much pressure for the CSV?

 

[Bannerman]

Regardless of the pump depth, the pump will only need to push the water up (lift) from the height of the water in the well. You said earlier that the static level is 85' so the pump will be lifting water 85' initially, but will be required to lift as much as 139' vertically as the water level in the well becomes lower as water is pumped out over time.

In addition to the actual vertical distance that the water must be lifted, resistance through the horizontal pipe will increase as the distance from the well is increased. Also, every psi added to the system pressure is equivalent to 2.31' so to achieve 55 psi system pressure is equal to 127' of head in addition to the vertical distance the water will be lifted. To achieve the 65 psi shutoff pressure, the pump will need to be capable of at least 70 psi (162') @ 1 GPM after the CSV.

 

[Reach4]

From what you’re saying regarding gpm, the implication I’m getting from my 11gpm flow during my test is that my well water level must have been very high, giving the pump a boost from the extra water pressure sitting above it. Am I understanding that correctly?

Yes.

If that is correct and I have a steady 10-11gpm recovery rate in the well, what would be at risk by running the sprinklers at a 10-11gpm? Too much pressure for the CSV?

More flow will not increase the pressure across the CSV-- it will reduce it.

The question in my mind is whether running 11 gpm is not so good for the pump. The search word is upthrust, and I don't know where to draw the line, nor how much that wears the pump.

 

[DIYLawnGuyMD]

Regardless of the pump depth, the pump will only need to push the water up (lift) from the height of the water in the well. You said earlier that the static level is 85' so the pump will be lifting water 85' initially, but will be required to lift as much as 139' vertically as the water level in the well becomes lower as water is pumped out over time.

In addition to the actual vertical distance that the water must be lifted, resistance through the horizontal pipe will increase as the distance from the well is increased. Also, every psi added to the system pressure is equivalent to 2.31' so to achieve 55 psi system pressure is equal to 127' of head in addition to the vertical distance the water will be lifted. To achieve the 65 psi shutoff pressure, the pump will need to be capable of at least 70 psi (162') @ 1 GPM after the CSV.

Some additional info for context—

—My current pressure switch comes on at 40 PSI and seems to turn off around 65 PSI.

—The well head is about 70 or so feet away from where it comes into the basement.

—The yard slopes slightly downhill from the wellhead in the front yard to the very back of the backyard. Have not measured exact slope but could do so if it would help me figure this out.

 

[DIYLawnGuyMD]

Yes.


More flow will not increase the pressure across the CSV-- it will reduce it.

The question in my mind is whether running 11 gpm is not so good for the pump. The search word is upthrust, and I don't know where to draw the line, nor how much that wears the pump.

Got it, so my takeaway so far is that my biggest concern (too much pressure blowing a line or the pump) is not really an issue here, and long term pump wear is the one remaining concern. Am I on track with the discussion?

 

[Reach4]

Am I on track with the discussion?

You are on track with my thoughts.

While not common/normal, I would consider putting a 200 psi pressure gauge on the line before the CSV. It would let me note if the well level is rising or falling, or if there are changes going on with time. IMO, can't hurt, as long as you don't worry much about what it means... and maybe that is a worthwhile worry in itself. If nothing else, it is a sanity check on the assumptions.

I would adjust the pressure switch to give a 20 psi differential. If you loosen (turn CCW) the nut on the big screw, it will reduce the differential.

To raise or lower the cut-in and cut-out settings while keeping the
differential between those two settings constant, adjust the range
nut. The range nut is the 3/8-inch nut that adjusts the larger of
the two springs in Models FSG, FYG, FRG, and Type G Pumptrol
switches.
Turn the range nut clockwise to increase the cut-in pressure and
counter-clockwise to lower the cut-in pressure. Three and a half
revolutions of the range nut will change both the cut-in and
cut-out settings by approximately 10 psi.
Adjust the differential nut if you want to raise or lower the
cut-out setting while keeping the cut-in pressure constant. The
differential nut is the 3/8-inch nut that adjusts the smaller of
the two springs in Models FSG, FYG, FRG, and Type G switches. Turn
the differential nut clockwise to increase the cut-out pressure and
counter-clockwise to lower the cut-out pressure. Adjusting the
differential nut will change only the cut-out setting while the
cut-in setting remains unchanged.​

 

[DIYLawnGuyMD]

You are on track with my thoughts.

While not common/normal, I would consider putting a 200 psi pressure gauge on the line before the CSV. It would let me note if the well level is rising or falling, or if there are changes going on with time. IMO, can't hurt, as long as you don't worry much about what it means... and maybe that is a worthwhile worry in itself. If nothing else, it is a sanity check on the assumptions.

What specifically would I be monitoring by having that gauge there? Higher pressure means the well water level is lower, right? What would I be looking out for?

 

[Reach4]

What specifically would I be monitoring by having that gauge there? Higher pressure means the well water level is lower, right? What would I be looking out for?

Higher pressure would go along with the water level being higher, but only at a given flow rate. For watching that, if your pressure switch is 40/60 and CSV is set for 50, then the flow is pretty consistent. At pressures of about 55 on the regular post-CSV pressure gauge, the input pressure would be mainly a function of the water level in the well. You have a good-producing well, so that gauge is not going to be exciting. But pressure gauges are pretty cheap. Again, having a gauge there is not the norm. It is rare.

There is the problem with a gauge. You are worrying already.

 

[Valveman]

As was said, 200 PSI on the pipe prior to the CSV1A will be your back pressure from a 3/4HP, 5 GPM pump with a static of 85'. That is fine for the CSV1A as long as your pipe is rated for 200 PSI or more.

 

[DIYLawnGuyMD]

I guess my last question before I decide if I will proceed-

All else equal, keeping in mind the above details already discussed, what kind of back pressure increase am I looking at if I switch from my ‘traditional’ 40/65 pressure tank and pump set up to the PK1A CSV?

Rationale for the question: Since I do not know for sure my well pipe pressure rating from the submersible to the house, I am trying to determine what pressure it is currently handling so I can make a risk assessment, keeping in mind the difference between service pressure and bursting pressure (something like 3-5 times the service pressure). I am willing to accept some potential longevity impacts on the pipes, but not ready to deal with a burst or leaking well pipe after installing the CSV.

The pipe coming in through the basement wall appears to be 1” poly but has no markings I can see, so I don’t know much more about it. So if I assume worst case it is 100# poly, then it might have a 300# bursting pressure. Seems like no one is really posting saying they blew their pipes from back pressure after installing the CSV, but I don’t want to be the example of “what not to do.”

 

[Reach4]

https://interstateplastic.com/catalog/pipe_for_fittings

Pipe manufactured to this specification is described using a prefix-diameter ratio. The prefix for ASTM D-2239 is SIDR.

The most common ratios under this specification are SIDR-19, SIDR-15, SIDR-11.5, SIDR-9, and SIDR-7. The lower the SIDR number, the thicker the wall and the higher the pressure rating. The definition of SIDR (Standard Inside Dimension Ratio) is the specific ratio of the average specified inside diameter to the minimum specified wall thickness.​

Using a digital caliper, measure the OD. What is it?

 

[DIYLawnGuyMD]

Very helpful link!

I don’t have a digital caliper, but I carefully measured the pipe circumference with a piece of Teflon tape and marked it, and got a circumference of 4.25”. Using an online conversion calculator it appears this circumference translates to a diameter of 1.35”.



Using the tables at that link I think I have SDR-7, or 250PSI pipe.

That all sound right to you? If so I think I’ve got my answer and my pipes should be fine with the CSV.

 

[Reach4]

That all sound right to you? If so I think I’ve got my answer and my pipes should be fine with the CSV.

Seems reasonable to me. Click Inbox, above.